Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Workshop tales, trials and disasters.
Maintenance tips, techniques and myths.
Technical discussion, description and outright lies

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby MountGower » Sun May 31, 2009 1:52 pm

G'day CoffsGal

Is there a reason you did not convert the Continentals to tubeless? I ask because I am using them and am considering going tubeless. I'd love to keep them as they are a very tight fitting tyre. Anyone else know the answer? Happy to hear.
MountGower
 

by BNA » Sun May 31, 2009 2:49 pm

BNA
 

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby Kalgrm » Sun May 31, 2009 2:49 pm

The Hutchisons are currently the only readily available (? ) tyre with the right shape bead to stay on the rim safely when used tubeless at high pressures. I wouldn't recommend converting other tyres, MG - you could get a painful blowout.

Cheers,
Graeme
Think outside the double triangle.
---------------------------------------
My web site: www.scenebyhird.com
---------------------------------------
The Bicycle Transportation Alliance
User avatar
Kalgrm
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 9236
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 5:21 pm
Location: Spearwood, 9km SE of Fremantle, WA

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby drubie » Sun May 31, 2009 3:08 pm

CoffsGal wrote:
So thumbs up so far for tubeless...more reports as I get a few more kms up...


Hmmm - that description of the flat fixing itself sure sounds attractive - would have allowed me to continue racing a few weeks back at least. Ta for the update.

Pity they can't magically stop me getting dropped during a race :lol:
So we get the leaders we deserve and we elect, we get the companies and the products that we ask for, right? And we have to ask for different things. – Paul Gilding
but really, that's rubbish. We get none of it because the choices are illusory.
User avatar
drubie
 
Posts: 4617
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:12 am
Location: New England

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby CoffsGal » Sun May 31, 2009 3:39 pm

MountGower wrote:G'day CoffsGal

Is there a reason you did not convert the Continentals to tubeless? I ask because I am using them and am considering going tubeless. I'd love to keep them as they are a very tight fitting tyre. Anyone else know the answer? Happy to hear.

As Graeme said...it is not possible to use normal clinchers such as the Conti GP4000s's as tubeless...only tyres specifically designed for use as tubeless such as the Hutchison Fusion 2 Tubeless can be used...there is also a non tubeless Fusion 2 available as well, so be sure to purchase the tubeless one.

From Stans no tubes website...
Remember you can only use the Hutchinson Fusion 2 Road Tubeless tire on your rim for tubeless use. It does not matter what other road tire you have it will stretch and blow off the rim. This is currently the only tire you can use.

The piece of glass that I removed was nearly the size of a matchhead, so I suspect that with smaller pieces of glass, one might not even be aware that anything had penetrated the tyre at all...the leak would just seal and one would continue on one's way...

One thing I have noticed is that the Fusion 2's are noisier than the GP4000S's...more of a resonating hollow sound no doubt due to there not being a tube to absorb the road vibration...the noise isn't irritating at all, just making an observation.

Ride is also just as smooth (as the GP4000S's) in my opinion and grip probably as good although haven't given it a hard cornering test so far...did get down the mountain first on the wet road today though without incident...

Emma
User avatar
CoffsGal
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:35 pm
Location: Mid North Coast NSW

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby toolonglegs » Sun May 31, 2009 4:22 pm

Thats good new Emma...glad you are liking them!.120psi is a lot of pressure for you to run...I would be suprised if you needed over 100.
The reason I can't run them on the open pro rims easily is the rim.I haven't got a photo but each spoke hole has an insert pressed in.So the surface is like having a 5 cent coin every cm with a hole in it.Look I did manage to seal it the first time but where as I normally have no problems running one layer of sealant tape...in this instant it wasn't strong enough and after about 2 weeks it popped letting all the air escape thru the rim.Even thou the tape doesn't sit that smoothly when installed after the initial inflate it molds perfectly to rim.But for some reason I had trouble sealing it the second time with a double layer.So I am going to run a standard set up on the rear for a while.
On how long they last.Well I don't really know :roll: .I have only just changed my front for the 2nd time both of which have definately done a few 1000.I have not had one wear out totally yet as I treat my race bike for what it was designed and I can be pretty rough on tyres... so after a few cuts which take longer than normal to seal I replace them.I would advise after getting a good puncture to take the tyre off and seal it with a patch and topping up the sealant.If a hole doesn't seal then just put a tube in like normal...thou the sealant can make it a bit messy.Also sometimes a hole won't seal till the tyre is half flat...you have to wait for the pressure to get down before the sealant works...thou still only 30 secs compared to a repair.
Commuting on them would be a tough call...as there is so much glass in Oz.They really are a race tyre and even thou they have lasted a dozen times longer than some race tyres I have run they are not particularily durable.It is only a matter of time till tougher versions start coming out.Hutchison already make a 25mm version and there are 2 other brands with tubeless tyres available.
Put it this way...if you have Ksyriums our similar sealed rims you should definately give them a go as the set up is so easy.
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14405
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby ausdb » Sun May 31, 2009 4:32 pm

toolonglegs wrote:On how long they last.Well I don't really know :roll: .I have only just changed my front for the 2nd time both of which have definately done a few 1000.I have not had one wear out totally yet as I treat my race bike for what it was designed and I can be pretty rough on tyres... so after a few cuts which take longer than normal to seal I replace them.I would advise after getting a good puncture to take the tyre off and seal it with a patch and topping up the sealant.If a hole doesn't seal then just put a tube in like normal...thou the sealant can make it a bit messy.Also sometimes a hole won't seal till the tyre is half flat...you have to wait for the pressure to get down before the sealant works...thou still only 30 secs compared to a repair.
Commuting on them would be a tough call...as there is so much glass in Oz.They really are a race tyre and even thou they have lasted a dozen times longer than some race tyres I have run they are not particularily durable.It is only a matter of time till tougher versions start coming out.Hutchison already make a 25mm version and there are 2 other brands with tubeless tyres available.
Put it this way...if you have Ksyriums our similar sealed rims you should definately give them a go as the set up is so easy.

Cheers TLL for the thoughts, looks like the normal setup is probably the way to go for my riding style.
ausdb
 
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:11 pm
Location: Dianella WA

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby drubie » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:27 am

toolonglegs wrote:Commuting on them would be a tough call...as there is so much glass in Oz.They really are a race tyre and even thou they have lasted a dozen times longer than some race tyres I have run they are not particularily durable.It is only a matter of time till tougher versions start coming out


Bugger. The gatorskin on the back of my race bike has roughly 1500km on it from memory and is already squared off on the local chip sealed roads. If the current tubeless are basically race tires, I think I'd be lucky to get 500. Unless the gatorskin isn't as durable as it's reputation suggests (and ptooey on it's reputation - it sucks glass like a thirsty plumber at a VB convention.) AND WHY won't these ratshit Vittoria Rubino tires wear out under the same conditions?. It seems like the tires I hate the most are the ones that last the longest.

What I need is the grip of the old Michelin carbons, the wear of the awful Vittoria Rubino and the self sealing nature of the hutchinson tubeless. Then I'd be stumping up my $300.
So we get the leaders we deserve and we elect, we get the companies and the products that we ask for, right? And we have to ask for different things. – Paul Gilding
but really, that's rubbish. We get none of it because the choices are illusory.
User avatar
drubie
 
Posts: 4617
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:12 am
Location: New England

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby CoffsGal » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:44 am

toolonglegs wrote:Thats good new Emma...glad you are liking them!.120psi is a lot of pressure for you to run...I would be suprised if you needed over 100.


I only ran 90psi in the tubeless for the first week, but wanted to do a fair comparison with the GP4000S's as far as rolling resistance was concerned. I had always run the GP's at 120psi so tried the tubeless at 120psi too, and at the same pressure, the tubeless were better IMO. So I can probably reduce pressure in the tubeless and attain the same rolling performance as the GPs at a higher pressure.

Emma
User avatar
CoffsGal
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:35 pm
Location: Mid North Coast NSW

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby CoffsGal » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:12 am

drubie wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:Commuting on them would be a tough call...as there is so much glass in Oz.They really are a race tyre and even thou they have lasted a dozen times longer than some race tyres I have run they are not particularily durable.It is only a matter of time till tougher versions start coming out


Bugger. The gatorskin on the back of my race bike has roughly 1500km on it from memory and is already squared off on the local chip sealed roads. If the current tubeless are basically race tires, I think I'd be lucky to get 500. Unless the gatorskin isn't as durable as it's reputation suggests (and ptooey on it's reputation - it sucks glass like a thirsty plumber at a VB convention.) AND WHY won't these ratshit Vittoria Rubino tires wear out under the same conditions?. It seems like the tires I hate the most are the ones that last the longest.

What I need is the grip of the old Michelin carbons, the wear of the awful Vittoria Rubino and the self sealing nature of the hutchinson tubeless. Then I'd be stumping up my $300.


The tubless system is not as dear as you think...
2 of Hutchinson Fusion 2 Tubeless tyres from Wiggle at $65.71ea (700x23)
473ml Stans sealant at $16.42 (enough for 7 wheels).
2 of 44mm No Tubes valve stem at $11.51ea.
1 roll 21mm Yellow rim tape ordered through LBS at $36. (enough for 2 layers on 2 rims)
Total $206

Pacific Brands only import the Fusion 2 tubeless to Australia, so for other varieties one needs to look OS. The Fusion 2 tubeless has a triple compund design with longer wearing compound in the centre...see their page on the Fusion 2 tubeless.

Hutchison also have a new longer lasting tyre...the Intensive...6000km they say with better puncture resistance too...also comes in a 25mm model...and hey, the 23mm is only 230g compared to the Fusion 2 at 295g...see their page on the Intensive tubeless.

Emma
User avatar
CoffsGal
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:35 pm
Location: Mid North Coast NSW

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby sogood » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:23 am

CoffsGal wrote:I only ran 90psi in the tubeless for the first week, but wanted to do a fair comparison with the GP4000S's as far as rolling resistance was concerned.

How do you intend to do that in a scientifically meaningful way? Is the theoretical/laboratory extrapolated rr change perceivable on a ride?
Bianchi, Ridley, Montague, GT, Garmin and All things Apple :)
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
User avatar
sogood
 
Posts: 16968
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby CoffsGal » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:22 am

sogood wrote:
CoffsGal wrote:I only ran 90psi in the tubeless for the first week, but wanted to do a fair comparison with the GP4000S's as far as rolling resistance was concerned.

How do you intend to do that in a scientifically meaningful way? Is the theoretical/laboratory extrapolated rr change perceivable on a ride?


Nothing scientific about my rolling resistance comparison, merely personal observation/perception on familiar rides. With the GP4000S's I often found myself coasting further/faster than my competitors, and with the Fusion 2 tubless at the same pressure, I found the difference to my competitors even was even more noticable. Now, of course they may have all been running less pressure or for some other reason had increased rolling resistance on the day, so the comparison is not backed up by any real data.

My other purposeful comparison observation on regular solo rides was that I coasted further after descending a familiar hill on the tubeless.

So I can say with certainty and conviction that I definitely feel that maybe the tubeless probably have less rolling resistance...there, vague enough?... :)

Emma
User avatar
CoffsGal
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:35 pm
Location: Mid North Coast NSW

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby sogood » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:28 am

Thanks. The question now is whether the effect was directly from the tubeless feature or just a difference in tyre model/compound? It would be interesting if you had two wheelsets on the same Hutchison tyres, one tubeless and the other tubed.
Bianchi, Ridley, Montague, GT, Garmin and All things Apple :)
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
User avatar
sogood
 
Posts: 16968
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby herzog » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:42 am

sogood wrote:Thanks. The question now is whether the effect was directly from the tubeless feature or just a difference in tyre model/compound? It would be interesting if you had two wheelsets on the same Hutchison tyres, one tubeless and the other tubed.


Some of the MTB mags have conducted such tests in the past. It's been demonstrated conclusively that tubeless configurations have less rolling resistance, all other factors being equal.
User avatar
herzog
 
Posts: 1721
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:50 pm

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby sogood » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:39 pm

herzog wrote:Some of the MTB mags have conducted such tests in the past. It's been demonstrated conclusively that tubeless configurations have less rolling resistance, all other factors being equal.

Undoubtedly so and people have known that fact for years. But the key question is, how much less? It could be 0.05%, 1% or 7.6% and would have relevance to the worthwhileness of such a system. Of course, marketing people would simply pick up the word "less" and spin it to the Nth degree. Or would take a numerical reduction in rr eg. 2%, to imply a 2% increase in real road speed, which we know is not true. RR is but one of the multiple parameters that determines bike speed.
Bianchi, Ridley, Montague, GT, Garmin and All things Apple :)
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
User avatar
sogood
 
Posts: 16968
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby trailgumby » Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:07 pm

Drat. My 700cs are Open Pro. :roll:

Thanks for the updates, TLL and Emma.
"People have a right to their own opinions, but not their own facts. Evidence must be located, not created, and opinions not backed by evidence cannot be given much weight." -- James W Loewen

http://www.facebook.com/Drive2WorkDay
User avatar
trailgumby
 
Posts: 10336
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:30 pm
Location: Northern Beaches, Sydney

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby herzog » Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:09 pm

But the key question is, how much less? It could be 0.05%, 1% or 7.6% and would have relevance to the worthwhileness of such a system.


I think the rolling resistance improvement is small but measurable, but for me, it's the cream on top of the other benefits of tubeless:

-No flats (pretty much)
-Better grip
User avatar
herzog
 
Posts: 1721
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:50 pm

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby sogood » Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:19 pm

herzog wrote:I think the rolling resistance improvement is small but measurable, but for me, it's the cream on top of the other benefits of tubeless...

Yes, those other benefits are without question. But the issue here is, is the rr reduction so significant that one can actually see and feel it on a ride, as CoffsGal suggested. Or was her observation better explained by other dominant parameters?
Bianchi, Ridley, Montague, GT, Garmin and All things Apple :)
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
User avatar
sogood
 
Posts: 16968
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby waynohh » Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:51 pm

Mtb tubeless rolling resistance is enough to be instantly noticable, I don't see why road should be much different. If the difference is stark enough to notice without any calibration/measuring equipment like CoffsGal or anyone else who's reviewed it has, then it's likely it's more than just 1 or 2 percent.

Shimano are introducing another tubeless wheelset for Ultegra 7900. Due Sept or Oct I think.
waynohh
 
Posts: 1041
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:05 am

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby sogood » Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:22 pm

waynohh wrote:Mtb tubeless rolling resistance is enough to be instantly noticable, I don't see why road should be much different. If the difference is stark enough to notice without any calibration/measuring equipment like CoffsGal or anyone else who's reviewed it has, then it's likely it's more than just 1 or 2 percent.

But you never know unless there are specific data. There are significant differences b/n road and Mtn bike tyres.

As stated earlier, one can't be sure if CoffsGal's example is wholly explained by the rr difference. Difference in tyre construction and compound may have been more important than tube vs tubeless.
Bianchi, Ridley, Montague, GT, Garmin and All things Apple :)
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
User avatar
sogood
 
Posts: 16968
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby CoffsGal » Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:05 pm

sogood wrote:
waynohh wrote:Mtb tubeless rolling resistance is enough to be instantly noticable, I don't see why road should be much different. If the difference is stark enough to notice without any calibration/measuring equipment like CoffsGal or anyone else who's reviewed it has, then it's likely it's more than just 1 or 2 percent.

But you never know unless there are specific data. There are significant differences b/n road and Mtn bike tyres.

As stated earlier, one can't be sure if CoffsGal's example is wholly explained by the rr difference. Difference in tyre construction and compound may have been more important than tube vs tubeless.


Information on the Stan's no tubes website states "wheels roll 12% easier"...quote below...
Benefits of running tubeless:
The lower pressures give you a much smoother ride adding suspension to your road bike
Once you're tubeless tires roll 12% easier
Puncture resistance, NoTubes sealant will seal most punctures
Lower pressures will stop many of the small cuts you get due to the high pressure making the tire not conform and roll over sharp objects
For city riding over glass you can run 70 psi and have fewer cuts
Lower pressures will make tires last much longer
Better air retention. After a few days of riding NoTubes sealant will make your road tires hold air pressure with little air loss. This means you may not need to check your pressures as often saving you time.
When riding tubeless you will not need to worry as much about pinch flatting
There is very little risk with this system. If you do not like riding tubeless you can leave in the yellow spoke tape, wash the sealant out with cold water and use the new tubeless tires with your tubes


As the above is from a party with a vested interest and without any reference to evidential data, maybe it should be taken with the obligatory pinch of salt...I expect there are some valid test results out there though...TLL wrote this in a previous thread...
Well every one goes on about Conti GP4..so in a recent test by Le Cycle magazine in France...who tested 80 tyres... Hutchison Tubeless came first in rolling resistance with a roll out on some sort of machine from exactly 30kmph to stopping with a distance of 49.98m (equal 1st with a Vredestein Tubular and FMB Soie Naturelle Tubular).Down in 55th place was a GP4 with a distance of 33.32m.No none tubulars came close.


Emma
User avatar
CoffsGal
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:35 pm
Location: Mid North Coast NSW

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby sogood » Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:22 pm

CoffsGal wrote:Information on the Stan's no tubes website states "wheels roll 12% easier".

As the above is from a party with a vested interest and without any reference to evidential data, maybe it should be taken with the obligatory pinch of salt...I expect there are some valid test results out there though...TLL wrote this in a previous thread...
Well every one goes on about Conti GP4..so in a recent test by Le Cycle magazine in France...who tested 80 tyres... Hutchison Tubeless came first in rolling resistance with a roll out on some sort of machine from exactly 30kmph to stopping with a distance of 49.98m (equal 1st with a Vredestein Tubular and FMB Soie Naturelle Tubular).Down in 55th place was a GP4 with a distance of 33.32m.No none tubulars came close.

So was it a tube vs no-tube effect or material and other design parameter?

Only if they did a side by side test using the same Hutchison tyre would we have a better confirmation. Otherwise it remains a conjecture.
Bianchi, Ridley, Montague, GT, Garmin and All things Apple :)
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
User avatar
sogood
 
Posts: 16968
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby ausdb » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:08 pm

CoffsGal wrote:Hutchison also have a new longer lasting tyre...the Intensive...6000km they say with better puncture resistance too...also comes in a 25mm model...and hey, the 23mm is only 230g compared to the Fusion 2 at 295g...see their page on the Intensive tubeless.
Emma

Sounds like they would be pefect for my situation, hopefully by the time the Rubino Pro's (yes I know they get some crap reviews but I wasn't going to shell out $60+ a tyre for normal tyres) I have just ordered have worn out they will be available at wiggle or somewhere :)
ausdb
 
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:11 pm
Location: Dianella WA

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby CoffsGal » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:54 pm

Here are a few links to info and reviews on the Hutchison Intensive Road Tubeless tyres...

www.roadtubeless.net

weightweenies

www.bicycles.net.au

Cant find anywhere that sells them though... :(
User avatar
CoffsGal
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:35 pm
Location: Mid North Coast NSW

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby MountGower » Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:27 pm

The roadtubeless website says the Intensive is 320g. The 230g seems to be from Ribble for the normal version.
MountGower
 

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby toolonglegs » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:28 pm

this is the link to the tubeless version...320g.
Emma your link is to the tubed version.
http://www.hutchinsontires.com/us/catal ... rs=4&pid=8
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14405
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

PreviousNext

Return to The Shed

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: macca33, NhiTrac



Popular Bike Shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Ebay Ebay AU

“Bicycles BNA Twitter
“Bicycles BNA Facebook
“Google+ BNA Google+
“Bicycles BNA Newsletter

> FREE BNA Stickers
> BNA Cycling Kit