Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:16 pm

baabaa wrote:No or here at all with this spesh-spesh thing, both, and I will type this quick so please read it quickly and we can then all move on, but I see more beauty and comfort in the concrete utility box than the thing in front. Oh, and the ring lock fence looks quite fancy and at least seems like it has a purpose in life.


Que ? :?:
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by BNA » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:04 pm

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby barefoot » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:04 pm



If I had a dollar for every time my bike choices - particularly aesthetics - have been declared wrong...

... I would have had my disc road frame built a lot earlier :mrgreen:


tim
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby jacks1071 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:17 pm

MichaelB wrote:Interesting the jacks1071 - for 2 reasons. Narrow rim width for CX and HEAVY !!!



Same rim width the cx crowd have been running for years. Agree they arn't light but they should be bomb proof which should be good for both commuter and cx applications, price should be right as well :-)
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby lock_ » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:56 am

There was an interesting little detail in Bike Rumor's latest post on Red 22.

The Connectamajig is the coupling hose that makes setting up your SRAM road hydraulic brake systems easy, fast and convenient. The intimidation of hydraulics is gone with a push and a twist, its just that easy. You can route your brake housing internally, and it works for SRAM’s RED 22 and S-700 hydro systems.


Of course that quote no longer appears on the Rockshox Connectamajig page, nor does the picture shown on Bike Rumor... The connection of the hose to the calliper on all the Red prototypes I've seen have always looked like more than just a simple banjo connection. Could be a relatively convenient method of ensuring your pistons don't accidentally get pushed out when the wheel is removed; just disconnect the coupling. Am curious as to how it would prevent air getting into the system when used repeatedly.

Guess we'll all know for sure soon enough.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby rkelsen » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:48 am

lock_ wrote:Am curious as to how it would prevent air getting into the system when used repeatedly.

I'm no engineer, but the picture makes it look like there are 2 'pistons' in separately sealed systems... hence no exposure to the air at all.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby lock_ » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:05 am

^My first thought too. But that ball bearing + spring just looks too much like a fluid valve. And if the callipers hydraulics were not connected to the rest of the system surely they would need their own reservoir (to allow pads to self adjust). TBH I can't figure out the diagram, and I have an engineering degree :lol: .
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby AndrewBurns » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:06 am

Yeah to me it just looks like a no-leak fluid coupling system (with valves on either side of the disconnect).
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:22 am

They are pretty commonplace in industrial/aerospace hydraulics. Been around for years in auto racing as well, particularly for oil lines, fuel lines etc to facilitate quick chnages.

As used in all dry break refueling systems as well, just on a bigger scale :D

http://www.tgp-racing.com/en/products/brakes/quick-release-coupling.html

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aer-fbm3114/overview/
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:42 am

Apologies for the size of the pics, but these were directly stolen from WW

If someone knows how to resize them, please feel free :D

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Crittski » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:48 pm

Pity its dot5.1, or i may have considered it as a stop gap measure before DA Di2 hydraulics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=8K4ADjuxEqc
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:46 pm

This "break down" on fluid might interest some.
http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/04/11/tec ... c-updated/
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:59 am

Details of Red 22 released

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/sram-unveils-its-red-22-11-speed-hydraulic-mechanical-group

With Red 22 mechanical, SRAM has also notched the claim to the lightest and (in most markets) least expensive top-end 11-speed group of the Big Three. A complete Red 22 mechanical group weighs a claimed 1,747g, compared to 1,885g for Campagnolo’s Super Record and 2,016g for Shimano’s Dura-Ace 9000.


For their proclaimed benefits, the hydraulic systems also add weight, about 104g for the Hydro R rim system and 463g for the Hydro R disc, when you take into account the rotors and the additional weight of the wheel for the latter.


463g extra when it includes the disc and calipers isn't bad. Thought it may be less of a difference, but that's not bad. On par with the Parabox.

10-speed hydraulic options

For those wanting to add hydraulic braking to an existing 10-speed group, however, SRAM will have the S-700 hydraulic levers, road calipers and disc calipers. This is not a complete group.

While SRAM says it will work with any SRAM 10-speed group, it will work best with a 2012 Red group that has a Yaw front derailleur because of the two-position left shifter. (Many front derailleurs have trim options to adjust the front derailleur in addition to shifting between the small and large chain rings.)


That's a good move !!
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:03 am

Pic inside SRAM's HydroR lever

Image

Interesting data/article re the development of the system and testing data re heating and fluid boiling. Seems like it aint gonna happen

http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/04/15/sram-hydro-r-hydraulic-road-rim-disc-brakes-unveiled-details-first-rides/

From there, they strapped on weight vests to get up to the 250lb system weight and started bombing down hill. Hydraulic brakes product manager Paul Kantor said they expected to boil the fluid during long descents while dragging the brakes, but that didn’t happen. Nor did it overheat during very rapid deceleration, but those tests did cause quick pad deterioration. So they switched from drilled alloy-backed pads to solid steel, and that held up better. The alloy backed pads with holes in the back were getting odd temperature spikes. They also switched to a different organic compound, a variant of what’s used on the mountain bikes. Metallic and semi metallic created too much heat.

With heat testing as a non-issue, and more power available to the rider, are there any other benefits to going to disc? Possibly. They found that sustained braking for five minutes generated about 550 watts of energy on a rim brake with carbon fiber rim, which made enough heat to blow out a tire. However, on discs, they could drag for 12 minutes, producing about 800 watts, with no brake failure and, obviously, no rim/tire failure.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby barefoot » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:37 am

Crittski wrote:Pity its dot5.1, or i may have considered it as a stop gap measure before DA Di2 hydraulics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=8K4ADjuxEqc


Concerning to see the mineral oil guys proclaiming their fluid having the "benefit" of not absorbing moisture.

Absorbing moisture is WHY glycol brake fluids were developed and used in Automotive applications. As a replacement for oils.

If you get any moisture in a mineral oil hydraulic system, it stays as a discrete drop of water. It doesn't mix. That's a given.

It's all very well to say that mineral oil has a BP of 536°F (280°C). Water has a BP of 100°. Then it turns to steam, which is compressible. That is, you lose ALL your brake function.

Modern sealed brake systems are a different animal to the open-reservoir systems that DOT fluids were developed for, and you're far less likely to get any significant amount of water in to your system in the first place. But to proclaim that having your hydraulic fluid immiscible with water is a benefit is utterly and fundamentally wrong.

tim

*ninja-edit: as the Avid guy said, in the paragraph below where I got to before I started ranting.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby AndrewBurns » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:40 pm

I'm actually really keen for the S-700 hydro brifters. My commuter has SRAM Force operating BB7's now but when these things come out I'll be switching to a full hydro brake setup for sure.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:56 pm

AndrewBurns wrote:I'm actually really keen for the S-700 hydro brifters. My commuter has SRAM Force operating BB7's now but when these things come out I'll be switching to a full hydro brake setup for sure.


Lucky you !!!!
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby lock_ » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:35 pm

I rode hydraulic discs on my two flat bar 'Urban' commuters, they always worked very well. Then I went full roadie, and had to deal with rim brakes. They were ok, but I always felt they just weren't as good. It's finally good to hear some actual feedback, this system seems very well received so far.

Unfortunately for SRAM, my Juicy 3's were never a match for the Deore's, and the temptation of a Di2/Hydro system is strong (as it would be amongst most early-adopter types). I'll be waiting to hear what Shimano has to offer. Hoping for an Ultegra level introduction; the price on a Dura-ace spec version could be really ugly.

Still the issue of UCI regs, but hopefully with Shimano's backing ($$$$). . . I only want one bike to race/train/commute on (it's heresy, I know).
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:56 am

Further comments/info re heat issues from [url=http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/04/17/trp-launches-hyrd-and-spyre-road-disc-brakes-first-impressions-and-tech-break-down/this[/url] Bike Rumour article re the TRP HyRd calipers


As one of the biggest concerns with hydraulic or mechanical road disc brakes is heat management, TRP devised a series of tests to push the HYRD and the Spyre to their limits and then some. In the switchback test, brakes are cycled on and off in 10 second intervals for 88 cycles with 6kg of lever force at 25kph. Testing resulted in an average of 761 watts with a peak in excess of 1000 watts causing the rotor to heat to over 900 degrees f. At these temperatures, the paint on the backing of the brake pads would flake off, but the brakes continued to function.

The second test was termed the scared rider test which involved 10 minutes of continuous lever pull at 3kg of force with the wheel again traveling at 25 kph. This is to simulate exactly what it sounds like – a rider terrified of a steep descent, dragging the brake the whole way down. Again, both brakes passed their testing according to TRP who was quick to point out that the testing did not include the air cooling effect of riding the brakes in normal conditions – as the ambient air rushing over the calipers and rotors would further cool the brakes.

While they wouldn’t say who, TRP mentioned that they purchase their mineral oil from the same source as another famous brake manufacturer, we think you can figure it out. Likewise, TRP pointed out that at those extreme temperatures, glazing of the pads becomes a much bigger issue than the fluid itself boiling. TRP hasn’t set a weight limit on the brakes yet, but they are currently testing both brakes with tandems to guarantee they are adequate. When asked about rotor size, TRP recommended that road riders always use a 160mm rotor in front, but can get away with a 140mm in the rear. In cyclocross-only applications, you should be fine with two 140s.


My highlights
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:53 am

Bike radars writeup of the Red 22 HydroR disc groupset

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/components/groupset/road/product/review-sram-red-22-with-hydro-r-disc-calipers-47179

With SRAM Red 22 with Hydro R disc brakes, you get a powerful, all-conditions braking system with great modulation, but you give up some ease of use (and compatibility with all your current road wheels), and you add in some heft and a few new noises to your riding experience.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:05 am

TRP have launched my kind of full hydro (no shifting) called the Hylex. They seem to be trying to corner every opportunity in the road disc brake market.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby warthog1 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:26 am

MichaelB wrote:
Image


What the hell is going on with that rim around the valve hole? :o
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby AndrewBurns » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:39 am

Bit of black electrical tape over the valve hole to stop the stem rattling around.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:59 am

The Hylex is interesting. Hoping very much that the Hywire makes itself known again soon !!
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Sun May 05, 2013 6:29 pm

REALLY interesting article about disc brake fluid, with input from the big players

http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/04/11/tech-speak-brake-fluid-break-down-and-implications-for-road-disc-updated/
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Sun May 05, 2013 7:25 pm

MichaelB wrote:REALLY interesting article about disc brake fluid, with input from the big players

http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/04/11/tech-speak-brake-fluid-break-down-and-implications-for-road-disc-updated/
I know I'm called "Nobody", but I didn't think I was that invisible. :P
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=31034&start=1250#p954274

On to other more recent news, Road.cc have done an initial ride impression of HyRd calipers and like them. Due to do a full report later.
http://road.cc/content/news/82423-first ... isc-brakes
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