Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Ross » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:37 pm

MichaelB wrote:A bit more info on the Culprit brand (being manufactured by Trigon) ;

Culprit quote a 56cm frame weight of 1,150g (raw finish), 470g for the fork (again, raw finish). The frameset – frame, fork, headset, seatpost, front and rear brakes – will be priced at $2,595 (about £1,640 at today’s exchange rate).

http://road.cc/content/news/64729-eurobike-2012-culprit-launch-croz-blade-disc-equipped-aero-road-bike

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Not sure on the paintjob.


Like! i'll have mine with Di2 thanks. :twisted: Yellow and black looks hot I reckon, red and black would be second choice.
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by BNA » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:28 pm

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:28 pm

rkelsen wrote:
JustJames wrote:Whenever an expert - and Zinn's expertise is, in fairness, considerable - announces that something can't be done, you can usually be sure that somebody is working on a way to do it.

You might be right. But disc brakes aren't a new technology. Any improvement in car/motorcycle brakes tends to come from bigger and heavier rotors and calipers.

"Thus, John, to get better performance from your disc brakes, get thicker cables and housings that won’t compress as much (or a hydraulic system), plus bigger rotors, bigger pads and stiffer calipers. You’ll have to suck up extra weight and aerodynamic drag as the costs of good braking."

I think it'll continue to be this way until someone develops an alternate material.


There is the theoretical compression of the housing and reality.

I would bet that most people couldn't tell the difference in a blind test.

You also have the exact same issue (cable housing compression) with rim brakes, so why is it an issue for discs ?

Also, how long have rim brakes on raod bikes been in development, compared to disc brakes, yet we never bat an eyelid when there is a newer, improved, lighter, stiifer, redesigned, re-materialed etc version compared to last years .... :?: :?: :?: :?:

Thing is, discs work, and yes, there are MINOR penalties, but in the real world, it's hardly noticeable.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby rkelsen » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:14 pm

MichaelB wrote:Thing is, discs work, and yes, there are MINOR penalties, but in the real world, it's hardly noticeable.

Why are you so defensive? At no point have I said that discs don't work. And nor have I said that they don't have their place in cycling.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:06 pm

rkelsen wrote:I think it'll continue to be this way until someone develops an alternate material.
Like carbon ceramic? I've highlighted the most important advantages for the blingers. :wink:
Carbon ceramic offers substantial benefits in terms of performance - in both wet and dry conditions - weight, comfort, corrosion resistance, durability and high-tech appeal.

http://www.brembo.com/en/car/original-e ... discs.aspx

Probably won't be long until it comes to bikes as weight and high-tech appeal seem to be big drivers for modern road bike purchases these days, regardless of cost.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:48 am

rkelsen wrote:
MichaelB wrote:Thing is, discs work, and yes, there are MINOR penalties, but in the real world, it's hardly noticeable.

Why are you so defensive? At no point have I said that discs don't work. And nor have I said that they don't have their place in cycling.


Wasn't being defensive at you (mind you, you have stated you fair share of objections in the past :) ), more the point of other people bring up minor points and bang on about them without actually having tried discs on road bikes.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:09 pm

MichaelB wrote:...and bang on about them without actually having tried discs on road bikes.


Does my commuter count? It's technically a hybrid...
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Cables really can make a difference.

Postby Nobody » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:30 pm

Nobody wrote:One of the comments below the article got me thinking about some better cables (like below). I might give them a try in the future now I know my current brake cables are a compromise.
http://www.yokozunausa.com/prbrcaandhok.html
Further to this post, I finally found coaxial brake cable called LifeLine and tried it out with the front BB7 on my CX bike. Amazing difference. Feels like a direct link to the caliper now and the cable is not as stiff as I thought it would be. They are also a bargain considering they are about the same price as good Shimano brake cables at ~$30.

Normal spiral-wound brake cable on the left, coaxial on the right.
Image

If you are thinking of changing over to hydros to get better feel/modulation, probably worth trying this cable type first.
Last edited by Nobody on Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MattyK » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:15 pm

I have BB7s on my flat bar, and there is softness in the lever action, but it is not from the cable. The lever motion at high forces can be clearly seen translating into movement of the cam arm in a linear fashion. The issue is with the caliper itself (or possibly the mounting) - the whole shebang can be seen flexing as you really clamp on it.

Whether this is an issue when rolling is another matter - likely the wheel rotation adds its own effect as compared to a stationary test. I rarely need more than one finger on the lever, however I do find the panic braking power and control a little underwhelming.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:42 pm

Keep moving. :arrow:
Last edited by Nobody on Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MattyK » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:56 pm

Tektro RX1, and they don't flex - as I said, they pull cable, and the caliper flexes.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:51 pm

MattyK wrote:Tektro RX1, and they don't flex - as I said, they pull cable, and the caliper flexes.
Sorry, misread again. :oops: I'll edit that post as it serves no useful purpose.

So does the caliper flex outward from the disk on both sides, or does the caliper body move one way or the other? I'll have a look at mine tomorrow and see if I can see anything flexing.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MattyK » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:06 am

The inner pad/inner section of the caliper moves/spreads as the piston pushes against it.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:17 pm

Yes I see this too. About 1 to 2 mm of deflection to the right with a twisting. But at those pressures I'd likely be doing a superman impression on the road. I measured the difference at the tip of the RL520 lever from engaged to the pressure above and it was about 10mm. I would say the previous spiral wound cable outers would add another 10+mm to this. So it ends up close to hitting the handlebar. The previous cables used were Shimano M System and a Giant generic cable.

As Zinn said, coaxial shift cables made index shifting what it is today. Since the cable run is twice as long for the front disc brake than for a rim brake (79cm in my case) I can easily see why this cable type makes such a difference.
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Re: Cables really can make a difference.

Postby Mulger bill » Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:42 pm

Nobody wrote:
Nobody wrote:One of the comments below the article got me thinking about some better cables (like below). I might give them a try in the future now I know my current brake cables are a compromise.
http://www.yokozunausa.com/prbrcaandhok.html
Further to this post, I finally found coaxial brake cable called LifeLine and tried it out with the front BB7 on my CX bike. Amazing difference. Feels like a direct link to the caliper now and the cable is not as stiff as I thought it would be. They are also a bargain considering they are about the same price as good Shimano brake cables at ~$30.

Normal spiral-wound brake cable on the left, coaxial on the right.
Image

If you are thinking of changing over to hydros to get better feel/modulation, probably worth trying this cable type first.


Interesting...
I'm from the "If you wanna go fast you damn well better be able to stop fast" school and I'm liking the sound of these cables. Not sayin' the BB7Rs on me commuter are crap (they aint) but if they can be improved for such a small outlay then...

Am I right in guessing they are "Recommended by Nobody"? If so, they's on the list next Wiggle session :mrgreen:

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Re: Cables really can make a difference.

Postby Nobody » Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:01 pm

Mulger bill wrote:Am I right in guessing they are "Recommended by Nobody"?
Of course. The most vague recommendation there is. :D

I'll be interested to see how you find it/them.

I'll also mention that I cut the cable with an angle grinder (very slowly and intermittently to avoid heating) as I was concerned the cut would get messy with and hacksaw trying to cut fine steel strands.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby baabaa » Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:33 pm

If so, they's on the list next Wiggle session


Just make sure you move your mouse to “Jagwire ripcord housing” select your colour then press click. Work well on both BB7 r and mtn.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby warthog1 » Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:38 pm

Nobody wrote: weight and high-tech appeal seem to be big drivers for modern road bike purchases these days, regardless of cost.


I don't entirely disagree but that is a tad cynical :P .
There are big advances in stffness/rigidity with modern bicycle frames. I have a 6yr old alloy/carbon framed roadie and a new carbon roadie and the difference in stiffness and presumably power transfer is significant, given the difference in speed between the two :shock: .
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:08 pm

Mulger bill wrote:
MichaelB wrote:...and bang on about them without actually having tried discs on road bikes.


Does my commuter count? It's technically a hybrid...


Sort of ....

Thanks for those cable pics Nobody. Where did you get them from ?
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:24 pm

warthog1 wrote:There are big advances in stffness/rigidity with modern bicycle frames. I have a 6yr old alloy/carbon framed roadie and a new carbon roadie and the difference in stiffness and presumably power transfer is significant, given the difference in speed between the two :shock: .
Now that's a good advertisement for carbon fatigue. :P

Carbon stays were probably designed to soften the ride of an otherwise stiff Al frame. Since people are often talking about how carbon can be designed for different purposes, I would say this is a good example. The idea couldn't have been too successful since I haven't seen any new ones like that for 2013.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:30 pm

MichaelB wrote:Thanks for those cable pics Nobody. Where did you get them from ?
Wiggle. LifeLine is probably a home brand of Wiggle. Quality looks good though.
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/lifeline-perfor ... les.net.au
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby warthog1 » Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:03 pm

Nobody wrote:
warthog1 wrote:There are big advances in stffness/rigidity with modern bicycle frames. I have a 6yr old alloy/carbon framed roadie and a new carbon roadie and the difference in stiffness and presumably power transfer is significant, given the difference in speed between the two :shock: .
Now that's a good advertisement for carbon fatigue. :P

Carbon stays were probably designed to soften the ride of an otherwise stiff Al frame. Since people are often talking about how carbon can be designed for different purposes, I would say this is a good example. The idea couldn't have been too successful since I haven't seen any new ones like that for 2013.


I think it is a low grade carbon in the stays true, however there was not a big difference in speed between the one i have now and the all alloy one (that cracked the head tube) it replaced.

This is what carbon lets you do. Its not all about the weight.
Image
It is the diameter/size and shape of the material that is contributing to the stiffness I believe.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:23 pm

warthog1 wrote:This is what carbon lets you do. Its not all about the weight.
I think that's the high-tech appeal bit. Anyway this is getting way OT.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:42 pm

baabaa wrote:
If so, they's on the list next Wiggle session


Just make sure you move your mouse to “Jagwire ripcord housing” select your colour then press click. Work well on both BB7 r and mtn.


So how does the Jagwire one compare to the Lifeline (apart from fancy colours) ?
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby baabaa » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:49 pm

Probably the use of kevlar? http://jagwireusa.com/index.php/product ... Brake_Kits
Swapping out the oem cables and (shimano) housings to jagwire slick c & ripcord h was done after a few months on both the disc bikes.
The drop bar 29er runs a full length hosing on the rear and the improvement was real in the overall lever feel. I also think the front and rear adjust on the go is quicker/better even with the same inline adjusters. Have racer on the sportive bike with short reach calipers and these use teflon inners which seem extra slippery. The shifting is also sweet.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:11 pm

Looks like Ripcord might be better then. From what I can gather, Ripcord uses Kevlar to hold the strands together, where LifeLine uses a wire interlaced mesh to do the same. Either one should be better than any spiral-wound housing for compression.

Surprised that we got to page 40 and over 2 years before this subject came to light. Maybe it was mentioned before, but I can't remember it.
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