Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Mon May 06, 2013 12:49 pm

Nobody wrote:
MichaelB wrote:REALLY interesting article about disc brake fluid, with input from the big players

http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/04/11/tech-speak-brake-fluid-break-down-and-implications-for-road-disc-updated/
I know I'm called "Nobody", but I didn't think I was that invisible. :P
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=31034&start=1250#p954274



:oops:
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by BNA » Wed May 08, 2013 3:38 pm

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Wed May 08, 2013 3:38 pm

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Thu May 09, 2013 9:38 am




They also do a 4 piston version with the M4 calipers

Hope V-Twin with M4 calipers

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Hmmmmmm, yummy


BTW, tried to get some more info from my Tektro/TRP contact re the Hywire release, but he was tight lipped,
and I can say that the Hywire is still quite far from any type of release.
:?

Oh well, standby to standby.

Either way, if I want to upgrade to either SRAM or Shiamno's system (and Di2 as well), then it will be similar cost - $1,200 for SRAM, and $850 + levers for the Shimano system.

Saving my pennies as I type :D
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Sat May 11, 2013 11:15 am

Aero losses for current disc brakes.
http://road.cc/content/feature/83327-di ... -more-aero
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Mulger bill » Sat May 11, 2013 11:39 am

Nobody wrote:Aero losses for current disc brakes.
http://road.cc/content/feature/83327-di ... -more-aero

Forget the aero, I'm wondering what happens to the rear tyre when this hits a big bump... :?
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Sat May 11, 2013 12:52 pm

Mulger bill wrote:Forget the aero, I'm wondering what happens to the rear tyre when this hits a big bump... :?
I can't see that bike on their web site and the "Product warranty" is unlinked. Probably not a first owner's problem.
http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/03/20/fir ... -unveiled/
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby warthog1 » Sat May 11, 2013 1:06 pm

Nobody wrote:Aero losses for current disc brakes.
http://road.cc/content/feature/83327-di ... -more-aero


I'm glad to see that confirmed. I can't see braking confidence affecting stage times much on a road stage race. The ability to set the correct speed for the corner isn't affected by braking power in the dry IME.

Not looking forward to the inevitable introduction of disc brakes into UCI sanctioned races tbh.
New wheels frame and brakes etc = big dollars :(
Hopefully rim brakes retain their aero advantage for some time yet :I
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Sat May 11, 2013 1:58 pm

warthog1 wrote:I can't see braking confidence affecting stage times much on a road stage race. The ability to set the correct speed for the corner isn't affected by braking power in the dry IME.
Agree. IMO they are just talking it up in light of the negative results. I got about a 10% increase in drag from those results. For the average rider in an average road position, the bike is about a quarter of the aero drag and about a third in a TT position. Assuming a third and 83% (probably even more on a TT bike) of all drag is aero on the flat makes about 2.7% or more total increased drag for a TT. So it will never fly as a racing technology for ITT IMO.

warthog1 wrote:Not looking forward to the inevitable introduction of disc brakes into UCI sanctioned races tbh.
I doubt you'll ever see them in UCI racing. It's not just the extra drag and weight, it's the risk of rotor burns and finger amputations in bunch crashes. Even if the UCI somehow make it legal, I think the racers would only find them an advantage in really wet conditions. Disc brakes are a real world solution for real world problems, but not an overall advantage in road racing conditions IMO.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby warthog1 » Sat May 11, 2013 2:08 pm

Nobody wrote:
warthog1 wrote:Not looking forward to the inevitable introduction of disc brakes into UCI sanctioned races tbh.
I doubt you'll ever see them in UCI racing. It's not just the extra drag and weight, it's the risk of rotor burns and finger amputations in bunch crashes. Even if the UCI somehow make it legal, I think the racers would only find them an advantage in really wet conditions. Disc brakes are a real world solution to real world problems, but not an overall road racing advantage IMO.


I hope you're right for the $$ aspect, but if Shimano pump out a groupset and exert pressure on the uci who knows?
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby singlespeedscott » Sat May 11, 2013 2:10 pm

Nobody wrote:
warthog1 wrote:I can't see braking confidence affecting stage times much on a road stage race. The ability to set the correct speed for the corner isn't affected by braking power in the dry IME.
Agree. IMO they are just talking it up in light of the negative results. I got about a 10% increase in drag from those results. For the average rider in an average road position, the bike is about a quarter of the aero drag and about a third in a TT position. Assuming a third and 83% (probably even more on a TT bike) of all drag is aero on the flat makes about 2.7% or more total increased drag for a TT. So it will never fly as a racing technology for ITT IMO.

warthog1 wrote:Not looking forward to the inevitable introduction of disc brakes into UCI sanctioned races tbh.
I doubt you'll ever see them in UCI racing. It's not just the extra drag and weight, it's the risk of rotor burns and finger amputations in bunch crashes. Even if the UCI somehow make it legal, I think the racers would only find them an advantage in really wet conditions. Disc brakes are a real world solution for real world problems, but not an overall advantage in road racing conditions IMO.

I'll hold you to that in three years time.

Disc brakes will be there because it will be driven by bicycle manufacturers. the manufacturers will lean on the UCI because consumers will want or will be told that they need disc brakes.

It will happen, regardless of whether they are warranted or not.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Sat May 11, 2013 2:11 pm

Nobody wrote: ..... Even if the UCI somehow make it legal, I think the racers would only find them an advantage in really wet conditions. Disc brakes are a real world solution for real world problems, but not an overall advantage in road racing conditions IMO.


I think that the above is a pretty accurate summary of where the racing future lies for discs.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Mulger bill » Sat May 11, 2013 4:39 pm

No doubt they'll be legal within a few years, it wasn't all that long ago the UCI was vehement in their opposition to CX discs.

I doubt they'll ever be mandated tho' so teams will have a choice.
The only reason that Joe Pedaller will need to get them once the UCI relents is peer pressure.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby toolonglegs » Sat May 11, 2013 5:01 pm

That was until Pat got on someone's bike at a world cup and promptly fell off because the brakes didn't stop his lard arse :-) ...and yet last season it was only really cannondale who ran them the whole season ( they only have disc only frames ) ... Might change a bit this year but not much.
In road racing they are probably dangerous ... Not because of rotor burns etc... But because it is better to have everyone on the same brakes roughly ( even if they dont stop you that well in some conditions ) than having a few riders in a bunch of 200 with vastly superior braking having everyone else run up their butt ;-)
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby AndrewBurns » Sat May 11, 2013 5:04 pm

toolonglegs wrote:That was until Pat got on someone's bike at a world cup and promptly fell off because the brakes didn't stop his lard arse :-) ...and yet last season it was only really cannondale who ran them the whole season ( they only have disc only frames ) ... Might change a bit this year but not much.
In road racing they are probably dangerous ... Not because of rotor burns etc... But because it is better to have everyone on the same brakes roughly ( even if they dont stop you that well in some conditions ) than having a few riders in a bunch of 200 with vastly superior braking having everyone else run up their butt ;-)


Legit tactic to brake check everyone behind you and force them to spear off the side of the road?
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby singlespeedscott » Sat May 11, 2013 5:15 pm

"Rubbings racing" :lol:
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby warthog1 » Sat May 11, 2013 10:16 pm

Carbon clinchers are another reason they are bound to come in. Carbon doesn't like heat therefore the rims have to be built heavier to be strong enough. Discs resolve the heat problem and with lighter, easier to spin up rims.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby AndrewBurns » Sun May 12, 2013 7:23 am

warthog1 wrote:Carbon clinchers are another reason they are bound to come in. Carbon doesn't like heat therefore the rims have to be built heavier to be strong enough. Discs resolve the heat problem and with lighter, easier to spin up rims.


Yeah this is primarily my like for discs. I have a disc brake commuter bike with carbon clincher rims. Normally you'd be mad to run carbon clinchers on a commuter bike, inferior braking in the dry, abysmal braking in the wet, concerns about heat (especially on a bike with loaded panniers), brake pads wearing down your expensive rims (double time in the wet and mud). With disc brakes however the rims are just there to hold the tyres and so they'll last forever, and generally carbon is a very good material for rims it's light, strong and stiff. The end result is a sturdy all weather commuter bike that also doesn't weigh much more than the average road bike meaning I'm more likely to want to ride it to work and I get there faster.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Sun May 12, 2013 8:40 am

Nobody wrote:Aero losses for current disc brakes.
http://road.cc/content/feature/83327-di ... -more-aero


Am I missing something or does that chart not really mean anything ? There are no units listed, so it shows a difference in %, but % of what.

That's also for a single bike in undisrupted airflow, not a bike with a rider in a peleton.

I think its a bit of misguided fluff that doesn't really prove anything of consequence. The UCI will be the biggest determinant, it's as simple as that.

In the meantime, the user market (use real life people) will decide how well it's accepted into the market place and whether it remains a real niche product or ends up with a meaningful % of the overall sales.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby find_bruce » Sun May 12, 2013 8:44 am

warthog1 wrote:Carbon doesn't like heat therefore the rims have to be built heavier to be strong enough.

That's an interesting theory, except for the fact that race cars, including F1, use carbon fibre disc brakes at temps that vastly exceed anything that will be seen on a bicycle.

I don't pretend to have the knowledge as to why, but it may be they use different resins
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Sun May 12, 2013 8:50 am

MichaelB wrote:Am I missing something or does that chart not really mean anything ? There are no units listed, so it shows a difference in %, but % of what.
The units are grams of drag if I remember correctly.

MichaelB wrote:That's also for a single bike in undisrupted airflow, not a bike with a rider in a peleton.
That's why my estimates of difference and comments were for TT.

MichaelB wrote:I think its a bit of misguided fluff that doesn't really prove anything of consequence. The UCI will be the biggest determinant, it's as simple as that.
It paints a relative picture of something that was already known, that there is about 10% extra bike drag with discs.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MattyK » Sun May 12, 2013 12:50 pm

F1 brakes are carbon, not carbon fibre
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby warthog1 » Sun May 12, 2013 2:36 pm

Thanks MattyK. I'm no expert either, but I should have said the resin in carbon fibre doesn't like heat.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby find_bruce » Sun May 12, 2013 2:43 pm

MattyK wrote:F1 brakes are carbon, not carbon fibre

You are a very knowledgeable bloke, but on this occasion you are mistaken:

(1) most allotropes of carbon are soft & structurally unsuited to the application - pencil anyone ? Sure diamond is the exception, but I think there would be a lot of comments if the discs were diamond.

(2) http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/under ... /5284.html
All the cars on the grid now use carbon fibre composite brake discs which save weight and are able to operate at higher temperatures than steel discs.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Sun May 12, 2013 3:31 pm

find_bruce wrote:(2) http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/under ... /5284.html
All the cars on the grid now use carbon fibre composite brake discs which save weight and are able to operate at higher temperatures than steel discs.


There is a whole thread on this (below). Most of these high performance brakes have either a ceramic or silicon carbide braking surface with CF as the structure.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=62276
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby cobba » Sun May 12, 2013 5:03 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:Disc brakes will be there because it will be driven by bicycle manufacturers. the manufacturers will lean on the UCI because consumers will want or will be told that they need disc brakes.


But will professional bike riders want them ?

In professional bike races after a wheel change you see the bike riders grabbing onto the team car to get their brakes adjusted by the mechanic.
Often this seems like a way to help the rider get back up to speed and catch up with the rest of the group.
If there isn't a problem with the disc brake caliper I doubt that a mechanic will pretend to fix it while the bike is moving.
If there actually was a problem with the disc brake caliper I doubt that a mechanic will try to fix it while the bike is moving.

Would you try to adjust a disc brake caliper while the bike was travelling at 60 kph ?

There's plenty of nasty photos around of severed fingers from disc brake rotors.
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