Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! DONE - see p5

Postby rkelsen » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:03 pm

MichaelB wrote:They seem to be generic 30mm deep rims with a machined braking surface. Just got rid of those 'orrible "Kona payroll" stickers..... bugger of a job ...

I'm not a fan of stickers on wheels either, and removing them is never fun. I've found that this stuff helps a lot: http://www.orangepower.com.au/prod_GooDissolver.shtml and it doesn't damage paint or plastics.

Re: the Volagi - wake me up when they're in production and they have a pro team riding them. :lol:
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by BNA » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:35 pm

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! DONE - see p5

Postby MichaelB » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:35 pm

rkelsen wrote: Re: the Volagi - wake me up when they're in production and they have a pro team riding them. :lol:


They are in production and selling in USA.

For 2012, they are releasing a hydro version with the TRP converter.

They won't be on the WorldTour as that is not their market. They are pitched as an all day riding bike, or didn't you even bother to look at the site :?:

[sigh] Some people will never be convinced despite meeting their requests for proof and infiormation. That's fine, :wink: , I have tried and been converted 8)
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! DONE - see p5

Postby rkelsen » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:42 pm

MichaelB wrote:[sigh] Some people will never be convinced despite meeting their requests for proof and infiormation.

Yes, I am quite thick in the head... :lol:
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! DONE - see p5

Postby Hangdog98 » Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:32 am

The reason we don't have a 6.8kg road racing bicycle is that the UCI have not sanctioned disc brakes for road racing competition. When they do, as we have seen in Cyclocross, there will be a flurry of them. Many, if not all of the major wheel manufacturers have disc road wheelsets ready to roll the minute they're UCI legal.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! DONE - see p5

Postby Ross » Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:41 am

Why should UCI legality stop the bike/wheel manufacturers from releasing disc brake equipped road bikes? As long as it is deemed safe which should be easy enough to do seeing as how MTBs have had disc brakes for years. Only a small proportion of road bike owners actually race them and an even smaller proportion of racers have ever have their bikes checked for UCI legality.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! DONE - see p5

Postby Mulger bill » Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:14 am

The UCI can't stop makers building disc equipped roadies Ross, they CAN stop people competing on them. Hence, the market for disc roadies is small, consisting of commuters like michaelB, Simonn and myself who want the benefits of drop bars and a good position coupled with reliable all weather stopping. Once the UCI comes to the party as they have with CX bikes the bigger makers will go nuts.

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! DONE - see p5

Postby MattyK » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:22 am

The other answer is: because people buy what their heroes have. Probably on the assumption that it is the "best" or most suitable for their purposes.

Last time I checked though, noone drives an F1 car to the supermarket.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! DONE - see p5

Postby rkelsen » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:31 am

MattyK wrote:Last time I checked though, noone drives an F1 car to the supermarket.

No, but they do drive their Ferraris to Lygon St.

And good on 'em. I would too if I could.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! DONE - see p5

Postby Hangdog98 » Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:08 am

For reasons best known to science, not enough consumers buy racing style bicycles, MTB's and CX bikes that aren't UCI legal. I once bought a cheap Porsche Road bike, that originally retailed for $11,400, and was dropped to $1,850 because the frame's top tube had been deemed to have too much downward slope in a UCI ruling that had changed after the bike had been put into production. Nobody wanted them and so they were sold off to buyers who, like me, stripped them for their full Dura Ace groupsets. Most people who buy and ride a drop bar road racing style bicycle will never race it. I doesn't matter to them what the UCI say, but manufacturers and retailers seem to stay away from them and for those that want them, like us, we have to make our own.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! DONE - see p5

Postby Nobody » Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:09 pm

Hangdog98 wrote:For reasons best known to science, not enough consumers buy racing style bicycles, MTB's and CX bikes that aren't UCI legal. I once bought a cheap Porsche Road bike, that originally retailed for $11,400, and was dropped to $1,850 because the frame's top tube had been deemed to have too much downward slope in a UCI ruling that had changed after the bike had been put into production. Nobody wanted them and so they were sold off to buyers who, like me, stripped them for their full Dura Ace groupsets. Most people who buy and ride a drop bar road racing style bicycle will never race it. I doesn't matter to them what the UCI say, but manufacturers and retailers seem to stay away from them and for those that want them, like us, we have to make our own.
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I think people are also paranoid about being seen to be different. The Porche probably looked too much like a mixtie frame to be taken seriously for many, regardless of how it performed. That problem for Porche was it was probably the same many that buy $10K+ bikes. I believe 'bents have the same problem.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! DONE - see p5

Postby MattyK » Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:14 pm

rkelsen wrote:
MattyK wrote:Last time I checked though, noone drives an F1 car to the supermarket.

No, but they do drive their Ferraris to Lygon St.

And good on 'em. I would too if I could.

There is a big difference between a Ferrari road car and any race car.

A proper race car is in line with the philosophy of a race bike (uncompromising, uncomfortable, and built to comply to a strict set of rules), hence my analogy. But the compromises in a race car make it completely unsuitable as a road car, and more or less the same goes for bikes.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! DONE - see p5

Postby rkelsen » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:09 pm

MattyK wrote:There is a big difference between a Ferrari road car and any race car.

Not really.

Road registerable Ferraris like this one are race-ready out of the box:



Not all car races are like Bathurst or Nascar...
MattyK wrote:But the compromises in a race car make it completely unsuitable as a road car, and more or less the same goes for bikes.

Sorry, I can't follow your logic here.

I rode my racing bike (which doesn't get raced [because I don't race... yet]) on the road today. At no point did it feel unsuited to the purpose.
Last edited by rkelsen on Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! DONE - see p5

Postby Ross » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:14 pm

Hangdog98 wrote:For reasons best known to science, not enough consumers buy racing style bicycles, MTB's and CX bikes that aren't UCI legal.


My Felt TT bike wasn't UCI legal out of the box, I had to change the saddle for one with a shorter nose so it passed the 50mm behind BB rule. Fine if I wanted to compete in triathlons but not legal for Time Trials.



Hangdog98 wrote:Most people who buy and ride a drop bar road racing style bicycle will never race it. I doesn't matter to them what the UCI say, but manufacturers and retailers seem to stay away from them and for those that want them, like us, we have to make our own.


That's what I was saying with my earlier post. Manufacturers could offer discs as an option on drop bar bikes for commuters or recreational riders (includes Audax and Sportive riders - AFAIK UCI rules don't apply to them).
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! DONE - see p5

Postby MattyK » Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:01 pm

rkelsen wrote:
MattyK wrote:There is a big difference between a Ferrari road car and any race car.

Not really.

Road registerable Ferraris like this one are race-ready out of the box:



Not all car races are like Bathurst or Nascar...
MattyK wrote:But the compromises in a race car make it completely unsuitable as a road car, and more or less the same goes for bikes.

Sorry, I can't follow your logic here.

I rode my racing bike (which doesn't get raced [because I don't race... yet]) on the road today. At no point did it feel unsuited to the purpose.

The Enzo might be brilliantly fast, but it sure as showtime isn't a race car. In standard trim it wouldn't be eligible for any race series beyond some obscure gentlemen's club one-make standard class category. To be race ready you'd have to strip off all the running gear, fit a cage, seat, tyres, brake pads, etc etc etc.

What was the purpose of your ride today? To feel like a racer? If it was purely for the sake of fitness, then there is technically no reason you would need skinny tyres, lycra, or minimal weight.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! DONE - see p5

Postby Hangdog98 » Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:15 pm

Ross wrote:
Hangdog98 wrote:Most people who buy and ride a drop bar road racing style bicycle will never race it. I doesn't matter to them what the UCI say, but manufacturers and retailers seem to stay away from them and for those that want them, like us, we have to make our own.


That's what I was saying with my earlier post. Manufacturers could offer discs as an option on drop bar bikes for commuters or recreational riders (includes Audax and Sportive riders - AFAIK UCI rules don't apply to them).

That's what I was saying with my Porsche bike post. We all think there's enough customers for road race bikes that aren't UCI legal but the manufacturers believe that there isn't. The Porsche bike sold well until it was illegal, then it died in the a$$. The same is true for new standard size anything. Who would buy a road race bike with a 1" steerer? Apparently, nobody, even if it didn't make a shred of difference to their 30k Saturday morning coffee ride.

What wins on Sunday, sells on Monday.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! DONE - see p5

Postby rkelsen » Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:10 pm

MattyK wrote:The Enzo might be brilliantly fast, but it sure as showtime isn't a race car. In standard trim it wouldn't be eligible for any race series beyond some obscure gentlemen's club one-make standard class category. To be race ready you'd have to strip off all the running gear, fit a cage, seat, tyres, brake pads, etc etc etc.

The Enzo isn't like any other model. It may not be 100% compliant with certain racing rules (eg: it uses downforce technology not allowed in F1 racing), but it is a lot closer than you seem to realise.

Quoting the Wiki page: "It was built in 2002 using Formula One technology, such as a carbon-fibre body, F1-style electrohydraulic shift transmission, and Carbon fibre-reinforced Silicon Carbide (C/SiC) ceramic composite disc brakes. Also used are technologies not allowed in F1 such as active aerodynamics and traction control. After a downforce of 775 kg (1,709 lb) is reached at 300 km/h (186 mph) the rear wing is actuated by computer to maintain that downforce."

It also has many 'race-ready' features, like racing seats and harnesses, single-nut wheels, tyres rated to 360kph and carbon fibre 'survival cell'. And then there are features it doesn't have: stereo, electric windows, door locks...
MattyK wrote:What was the purpose of your ride today? To feel like a racer? If it was purely for the sake of fitness, then there is technically no reason you would need skinny tyres, lycra, or minimal weight.

It was purely to get out and enjoy the sunny Melbourne afternoon. You're right, I could have done it on any bike... but at no point did my bike feel like it was out of place or unsuited to the purpose. 8)
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! DONE - see p5

Postby MichaelB » Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:52 pm

We are now getting way off track, but w.r.t. the Enzo, just because it uses race inspired technology/materials doesn't make it a race car.

It's even funnier when some of that technology (traction control) is taken away from the racing scene ...

Now, back to disc brakes on raod bikes (where they belong...) :P
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! DONE - see p5

Postby rkelsen » Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:37 pm

MichaelB wrote:We are now getting way off track, but w.r.t. the Enzo, just because it uses race inspired technology/materials doesn't make it a race car.

http://www.foxcollection.org.au/the_cars.html

"The Enzo Ferrari is considered the closest road car to a Formula 1 car. The Enzo is intended as a street-legal race car and the sum of Ferrari's technological heritage. The Enzo is the base platform for the Maserati MC12, which is sold both as a street car and GT racing car."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_car ... nd_Touring
MichaelB wrote:Now, back to disc brakes on raod bikes (where they belong...)

You want to race a 29er? :lol:
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! DONE - see p5

Postby MattyK » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:13 pm

rkelsen wrote:The Enzo isn't like any other model. It may not be 100% compliant with certain racing rules (eg: it uses downforce technology not allowed in F1 racing), but it is a lot closer than you seem to realise.

For clarity's sake:
This is a fast road car: (many of which will be on par with or faster than the Enzo)


This is an F1 car:
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! DONE - see p5

Postby rkelsen » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:36 pm

MattyK wrote:For clarity's sake:
This is a fast road car: (many of which will be on par with or faster than the Enzo)

Dunno about that, but they're probably on par with V8 Supercars.

There are many classes of racing outside of F1, you know.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! DONE - see p5

Postby MattyK » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:50 pm

rkelsen wrote:
MattyK wrote:For clarity's sake:
This is a fast road car: (many of which will be on par with or faster than the Enzo)

Dunno about that, but they're probably on par with V8 Supercars.

Since you quoted Top Gear, the Gumpert Apollo, Radical SRT8 and Caterham R500 from that video are faster around their test track than the Enzo.

It's probably faster than a Formula Vee, but it's still not a race car.

There are many classes of racing outside of F1, you know.

I know that. I have completed in motorsport before, in a road registered car. Sure it's motorsport, but it's not a race car.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! DONE - see p5

Postby MichaelB » Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:27 am

OK, lets not get caught up in semantics of what is a "race car" or not, otherwise we'll degenerate into a meaningless argy bargy of quotes that support one view, much like another member that hasn't been around for a while was able to justify his definition that a HQ Holden Kingswood was "vintage".

Lets make it that a "race car" is one that is defined and goverened by a set of rules put out by FiA, much like a bicycle that is allowed to compete in races is goverened by rules put out by the UCI.

There are many race car like road cars, but they are not a "race legal car" (with the exception of those somehow registered and produced especially of one make series such as Porsche GT2RS etc which still require mods for racing.

Now back to discs on road bikes. :P

The burning question is when will the UCI make them legal for Road Racing bikes ? 1 - 2 years ?
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! DONE - see p5

Postby jasonc » Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:28 am

in regards to project 68, how come they mention it's under 6.8kgs. i thought 6.8kgs was the minimum?
:?
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! DONE - see p5

Postby MichaelB » Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:53 am

jasonc wrote:in regards to project 68, how come they mention it's under 6.8kgs. i thought 6.8kgs was the minimum?
:?


Marketing, kudos and to prove it can be done without any real issue.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! DONE - see p5

Postby rkelsen » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:21 am

MichaelB wrote:Lets make it that a "race car" is one that is defined and goverened by a set of rules put out by FiA

Yes. Like the GT rules that the Enzo was designed to meet.
jasonc wrote:in regards to project 68, how come they mention it's under 6.8kgs. i thought 6.8kgs was the minimum?

As mentioned above, the bike has to weigh less than the UCI limit to allow for the installation of power meters and such.

I actually spent some time reading up on the Project 6.8. Colour me impressed. :)
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