Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby queequeg » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:07 pm

MichaelB wrote:
queequeg wrote:
MichaelB wrote:I did over 6,000km on my BB7's on the roadie, and they are now on Nate's bike, and still the original pads.


Which pads? I have whatever came with the BB7s, ....


Std ones. Never did anything but adjust them.


Finally had a chance to pull the pads off over the weekend and check the wear, since I seemed to be wearing through them pretty quickly. I compared them to the new sets that just arrived, and the pads look to be around 50% gone after just under 3,000km. Of course, that is just based on the thickness of the pad all the way to the backing plate. I suspect that they will need replacing sooner than that, perhaps when the arms on the spring clip starting scraping on the disc rotor, or I am unable to adjust the pads any further.

I am trying some "non-genuine" pads as replacements, with two different compounds. Will be curious to see how they last (and how much noise they make).
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by BNA » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:39 pm

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Hangdog98 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:39 pm

Oooh, I saw my name there a few posts back. I wonder if I was the first? Maybe I'll get a mention on wikipedia (until an American decides he was the first and edits me out).

On the topic of what constitutes real hydraulic disc brakes...well for me, hydraulic brakes would be those that use a hydraulic fluid to move a piston, which causes a pad covered in friction material, to squeeze a rotating disc, attached to a wheel, imparting said friction onto the disc, which slows the wheel and thus, slows the bicycle. The components that interface the fingers to the hydraulic master cylinder will have a number of seperate parts to transfer the mechanical movement of the lever's arc to a linear push (or pull) on the hydraulic master cylinder. The location of this master cylinder may be in the lever, attached to the underside of the handlebars, frame or in the caliper, but for my money, the brakes are still hydraulic. Are the Hopes and TRP's also not hydraulic or is there a maximum length of actuating cable that you're allowed to use before they become mechanical brakes? Are automotive hydraulic brakes not hydraulic because the master cylinder lives on the other side of a firewall connected by rods and levers and on the other side of a vacuum booster?

The real question might be: are the levers hydraulic?

One of the reasons the calipers aren't seen everywhere is because of the numerous strong patents that AMP-Research has on this design and their reluctance to re-manufacture them. Grimeca tried and failed to produce a copy and only RockShox licenced the design for a specific DH bicycle (the GT Lobo) in 1999. Along came Shimano's International Standard Discs and the rest is history.

Yamaha used a cable extension to the hydraulics waaaay back in 1984 on the XJ750 seca though they were more like the TRP's with the master cylinder attached to the head tube. They called them hydraulic disc brakes.
Image

Either way, I'm not fussed on what we call them. They work better than any other discs I've tried and I'm currently working on version two after acquiring a NIB set from a kind gentleman in Mass-a-chew-sits in the USA for fitty bucks. Bargain! Having said all that, I wish I had have waited for those SRAM ones. I think they'll be nice. Plus, they're proper hydraulic disc brakes :P
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:25 pm

Hangdog98 wrote:Are automotive hydraulic brakes not hydraulic because the master cylinder lives on the other side of a firewall connected by rods and levers and on the other side of a vacuum booster?
Nah. You could argue the pedal box assembly is just an extension of the master cylinder assembly. It's not like it's losing much in the way of feel of friction.

Anyway, I'm happy enough with the BB7s and will probably wait until hydros are a no-cost option, if at all.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:52 am

Hangdog98 wrote:Are automotive hydraulic brakes not hydraulic because the master cylinder lives on the other side of a firewall connected by rods and levers and on the other side of a vacuum booster?


I'd use the version that the Parabox/Hope setup is a hybrid system, or partial hydraulic, whilst the MTB version is full hydraulic.

$50 for a new AMP system - bastige !!!



Nobody wrote: Nah. You could argue the pedal box assembly is just an extension of the master cylinder assembly. It's not like it's losing much in the way of feel of friction.

Anyway, I'm happy enough with the BB7s and will probably wait until hydros are a no-cost option, if at all.


That was my thoughts as well, but the tinkering side of me just couldn't help myself. That and a discount and things in stock .... :D
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:24 am

:?

[sigh]

:cry: After hoping for the last couple of days that the TRP PArabox would arrive in my letterbox, I check the Royal mail Trace page only to get this message

Your item, posted on 01/02/12 with reference xxxxxxxx has arrived in MELBOURNE AUSTRALIA and is being processed for delivery.

Pooh. Oh well, at least it is in Melbourne now, so should only be a week getting here ..... :roll:

Standby to Standby

:?
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Hangdog98 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:34 pm

Nobody wrote:
Hangdog98 wrote:Are automotive hydraulic brakes not hydraulic because the master cylinder lives on the other side of a firewall connected by rods and levers and on the other side of a vacuum booster?
Nah. You could argue the pedal box assembly is just an extension of the master cylinder assembly. It's not like it's losing much in the way of feel of friction.

Just as the lever and cable to the master cylinder's piston is part of the master cylinder assembly. A good cable would loose even less in the way of feel and friction than a pedal box of levers, bell cranks and rose joints.

Here's the drawing to show the master cylinder and its relationship to the two ceramic pistons that move the pads... hydraulically
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Crittski » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:10 am

As soon as hydraulics from the lever are available, they will be going on my bike. The cost will be irrelevant, I want brakes as good as my XTR brakes, and I want them to feel the same too!
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:56 am

Yay !!!!

It's here !! :mrgreen: It's here !!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

More details and pics to come, but the bugger is that the required bits to shorten the lines are NOT in the kit. Bugger :evil:

Will look at what the options are a bit later today.

May just install with the line length fro now, and then sort out the length later.

One thing to note is that the 160mm Ice-Tec rotor from Shimano is about 21g heavier than the std TRP supplied one.

Overall weight of the kit (including a bit of bubble wrap is 578g, including lines & calipers, but not discs.

Standby to standby !!

Oh, and in profile, the TRP calipers are smaller, so it's more AERO :shock: :shock: :shock: :roll:
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby eeksll » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:07 am

http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa ... they-work/

I'd be interested to read about the fading due to heat of disc brake hydraulic/disc brake cable/normal caliper brakes. My main interest in the discs is, can I ride the brakes if I have to.

I know on the mtb I have ridden the rear brake down steep descents (hydraulic disc), the whole way and not noticed any negative braking, but there sure are many steeper and longer hills than the few I have tried.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Crittski » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:25 am

I read that article this morning too and I reckon that guy had some setup issues with his brakes, because he seems to have lost all braking within 500 yards and 3 minutes of commencing his descent. I have never had my hydraulic disks fade at all off road, so I suspect his bleed was dodgy from the start, and that his brakes weren't well setup (I check my setup before every ride to ensure that there is ample grab before the levers hit the bar, and with hydraulics, that there is zero spongy feel to them). The descent off Coot-tha would probably be a similar test of brakes to those that broke his ribs, and a route I have done with mountain bike (hydraulic disks) and road bike (mechanical disks) without any fade at all.

Gotta give kudos to his bravery in putting the bike down when he knew that stopping was only going to get harder the longer he delayed deliberately crashing! He was very lucky not to have worse injuries (and I wouldn't wish broken ribs on anyone).
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby rkelsen » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:55 am

eeksll wrote:http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/road-bike-disc-brakes-are-coming-but-will-they-work/

Food for thought.

Looking at his particular choice of rotors, there doesn't seem to be much surface area on them. I dunno if they were the right choice for his application.

With hydraulic discs, the issue of heat transfer to the fluid is a big one which can't be ignored. There isn't a lot of fluid in a bicycle caliper. So if you overheat the pads and rotors, then the chances of boiling the fluid are pretty high. When that happens, you will lose all braking. I'm guessing that a different technique (in combination with better rotors) may have helped prevent his accident.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Crittski » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:38 am

Personally I pulse my brakes between hard and soft as well as between front and rear to allow for a period of cooling, plus rotors are for stopping, not for weight loss, so I have rotors that are fit for purpose installed. Whilst I don't want an unnecessarily heavy bike, I won't take weight weenie-ism so far that it compromises my safety.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby eeksll » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:18 pm

sounds like we need a brake fluid temperature gauge on the handlebars ... :D
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:45 pm

I need to read the article fully, but it seems really quickly that the rotor is the wrong one, full stop (pardon the pun).

There is SFA actual rotor !!

Image

I'm sticking with the 180/160 combo, and the Ice-Tec rotors should be fine.

Image

Noted though that the rear TRP pads are about 60% the size of the BB7. Will check out the fronts tomorrow. Pics to come. :D
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Fred Nurk » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:37 pm

Where does this put us for hub widths and availability for road disc hubs, or are we all running 100mm / 135mm hubs?

SRAM releasing road hydro discs removes one of my last objections about riding road bikes.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Mulger bill » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:48 pm

That top rotor is insanity Michael, I wouldn't run that in a 16" diameter on me MTB on the flat. Glad you aren't as weight weenie silly.

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:39 pm

Fred Nurk wrote:Where does this put us for hub widths and availability for road disc hubs, or are we all running 100mm / 135mm hubs?

SRAM releasing road hydro discs removes one of my last objections about riding road bikes.
The word is the OLD will be 135mm for disc braked hubs of the future in CX at least. Not too many road bikes yet. I'm running 100/135. I'm going to stay with 135 too. Can't see the point of 130 at this stage.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:45 pm

MichaelB wrote:I need to read the article fully, but it seems really quickly that the rotor is the wrong one, full stop (pardon the pun).

There is SFA actual rotor !!

...

I'm sticking with the 180/160 combo, and the Ice-Tec rotors should be fine.

...

Noted though that the rear TRP pads are about 60% the size of the BB7. Will check out the fronts tomorrow. Pics to come. :D
Yeah I think I'm still pretty safe with my heavy BB7 and 185mm octagon rotor. I really can't see the point of going less than this for heavier people. Also BB7s are tandem rated as there is no fluid to boil and the only things that melt are the plastic adjuster bits (so I've read). If he runs WW micro brakes, then he should expect to run out of brakes on steep descents.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:30 pm

Now having raad the Bike Rumor article in full, I still wouldn't change anything. What I got from it is, if you don't know what you're doing (like the author at the time of the crash) avoid customising discs for road use.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:29 am

Nobody wrote:Now having raad the Bike Rumor article in full, I still wouldn't change anything. What I got from it is, if you don't know what you're doing (like the author at the time of the crash) avoid customising discs for road use.


I agree. Gotta sit down and REALLY read it, along with the comments, but at the end of the day, the article was poorly written, as the following paragraph, the most important of all, was at the end

I want to point out that I installed the parts myself, cut the rear hose and re-bled the rear brake and chose to not use TRP’s stock rotors. I do not blame TRP or any other manufacturer for what happened. In hindsight, it was poor parts selection for the actual use. And perhaps I could have used better braking technique – brake hard, release, brake hard, release.

Some key 'coulds' and 'perhaps' that should have been at the start of the article.

Oh, Mulger, I aint WW in the slightest. :D

Common sense is much more important !!!!
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:55 am

Fred Nurk wrote:Where does this put us for hub widths and availability for road disc hubs, or are we all running 100mm / 135mm hubs?

SRAM releasing road hydro discs removes one of my last objections about riding road bikes.


The rear width standard for Road is yet to be fully established.

Volagi have gone 130mm at the moment, and my Kona Honky Inc is as well.

The CX and MTB market are firmly 135mm, but not sure what the Road side will do. There are more and more disc road hubs available with 130mm OLD though, so may still stick.
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Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:40 am

CX bikes are the same as road bikes... Not Mtb's.
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TRP Parabox Installation notes - Pt 1

Postby MichaelB » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:02 am

Managed to squeeze in some assy time this morning, and here are some quick notes.

Quality - the parts are well made and finished very well. The "noodles" that direct the cables to the master cyl are teflon lined and the cables run very well in them indeed.

Looks - :D :D :D Look much nicer than the BB7, but then so they should.

Issues -

#1 - One BIG one here, not a show stopper, but something that should be sorted out, ASAP. The design of the layout is such that it lends itself to the brake connection orientation as per the US, not haw we have it in Aus. The way we connect brakes here mean that the noodles are crossed over, and as they are the same length and the same bend radius, they interfere with each other. I was able to get around it, JUST, but it is something that should be looked at. I'll post a pic later to show this.

#2 - The length o the lines is too long. The front by about 80mm, and the rear by 320mm. This extra length can be accommodated at the moment, but it's not ideal, and will be fixed ASAP, once I get some feedback from either TRP or the Aussie importers - who incidently haven't even got theirs yet !!!! :D :D :D :mrgreen:

So far so good though. Cables routed, but not tightened, and the front Ice-Tec rotor installed. Quality bits there indeed, and plenty of meat for those descents and getting rid of the heat !!

Standby to standby for more it bits !!!

Gotta go visit Mum in hospice. See ya
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Hangdog98 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:35 am

So as a 100kg+ rider on a disc brake road bike I made myself, who enjoys travelling fast down a steep descent, I reckon I can weigh in on the topic. I've also had a decade or two in motorcycle racing and had the first disc braked MTB in the national series in Australia, so I've got some history.

Disc brakes work. We know why and how. The patents on the successful designs are set in stone and if you want to make disc brakes for bikes then you have to pay the designer/patent owner to license it. Option B is to try and work out some other way that engineers gave up trying to get around since Freddy Lanchester patented them in the late 19th century.

There are couple of absolutes in disc brake design. The first is that the rotors are critical to brake performance. They're not an afterthought that can be machined away until they simply resemble a rotor's silhouette. As everyone pointed out, heat is the enemy of performance. The very purpose of a friction brake is to convert kinetic energy into heat energy...period. The heat energy then needs to be transferred into the atmosphere before it overheats the hydraulic fluid, boils it and creates compressible bubbles of gas. The greater mass of the friction surfaces and everything connected to them and the greater its ability to conduct the heat, the better. This includes the rotor.

The second thing is sufficient surface area to dissipate the heat. The best component to catch and dissipate heat is the rotor. The design, again, is well developed and the best rotors have small cross drilled holes. The most fashionable have elaborate machining that a). Doesn't absorb much heat from the friction material yet climbs quickly to very high temperatures and b). Warps under moderate heat load causing the pads to have even less contact area and subsequently less stopping power.

High performance automotive brakes generate tremendous amounts of heat. As an example, my sports car has cross drilled, ventilated, floating CAST IRON brake rotors to absorb and dissipate the massive heat generated from those big red brake callipers. Now obviously we're not going to use cast iron rotors on a bicycle, but I think it illustrates a point about how heat-dissipating rotor design takes precedence over light weight, even to famous sports car manufacturers where cost is not an issue.

The other issue for my mind is the large number of fluid connections in the TRP hydraulic system (and many others). All these connection points present multiple areas for air to enter and remain in the system during both set up and under high heat loads where dissimilar metals expand at different rates/heat loads. Even a small bubble trapped in a banjo bolt connection can present a problem in a small volume system under stress.

In my view, this guy lost his brakes because he used those silly aftermarket rotors that failed to dissipate any heat which then caused his caliper to overheat the fluid which in turn stressed the system into introducing and/or releasing trapped gas into the fluid. The user's rotor choice error was exacerbated by having a typical opposed piston caliper with poor heat dissipating features. TRP supplied rotors that they've tested and work very well but, this clever gentleman knew better than the engineers that put the system together... and as often happens, made quite a hole in the scenery, then blamed TRP and disc brakes in general.

Thousands of guys use a setup like this on massive descents like those at Les Gets and you see the noobs holding the brakes on the whole way down a half hour descent on a 55lb bike over bumpy terrain without ever getting fade. Other, poorer designed brake systems fade at the first hint heat build up because of the haphazard mix-n-match ebay sourced components that work together only because the bolt holes line up.

My bike has cross drilled stainless steel rotors (small holes not big missing pieces). Cooling fins on the caliper. Airflow over the pads by using a sliding caliper design without opposing pistons. Lightweight ceramic pistons (under those cooling fins). A closed 'factory charged in a vacuum' hydraulic system with no hose connections and minimal exposure to the atmostphere, even under high heat loads. The caliper, including the master cylinder and sliding caliper carrier and brake mount weighs 169g each end and the 160mm rotor weighs 115g and the rear 140mm rotor weighs 95g. The result is a very powerful brake system that stops my fat ass without any problems at any speed at anytime so far. I use the same system on my MTB, my commuter and the road bike and I have never been less than amazed at Horst Leitner's brake system. The only problem is that you can't get them any more unless AMP-Research either start making them again or license the patent to someone who will.

Anyhoo, the moral of the story is: Use the rotor specced for the system. That is not the place to save weight. Just ask Brembo.

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby Nobody » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:30 pm

A couple of other things from the article.
http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa ... they-work/

Evan was dropping me on a Canti-equipped Raleigh ‘cross bike, and I was losing Joseph, who happened to be riding the Specialized Disc Crux we have on review and maintaining a more intelligent pace.
The same conditions didn't appear to be a problem for the Specialized Disc Crux which is also a disc braked road bike.

The brake fade that led to my accident is something I’ve experienced on my mountain bike on several occasions with multiple brands of brakes.
Maybe he's been getting lightweight rotors for those brakes too.

From the comments:
Robert - 02/14/12 - 9:00pm

First of all, I would like to send well wishes to Tyler for a speedy recovery.

Disclaimer: I am one of founders of Volagi Cycles – we ONLY produce performance carbon bicycles with disc brakes. Obviously, we have a vested interest in the proper implementation of disk brakes for road use.

We have been testing, riding, braking, and retesting almost every combination of disk brakes since we started our company more than 2 years ago. With that experience under our belt, we can wholeheartedly say that we believe disk brakes not only work better but feel they will make road cycling safer and more enjoyable.

Like any new technology proper design and implementation is key to good performance and a good riding experience. We have experience with every combination of the setup Tyler was using including the Ashima rotors and 1st generation Parabox brakes. We had major concern with both. We felt the Ashima rotors although very light did not provide enough surface area to provide proper heat dissipation and modulation. The 1st gen Parabox prototypes(2- sets) we were testing were woefully undersized and underperforming both in pad size and stopping power.

We expressed our concerns with TRP and are very happy to say that the 2nd gen preproduction prototype of Parabox brakes(with Lyra rotors 160 front, 140 rear) has worked flawlessly and I have personally had one of the best experience I have ever had braking – period. The feel was deliberate, consistent and the control was excellent. TRP has also improved the connection system (mentioned by Lance above) which will eliminate problems that we experienced with air leaks (often during installation), which may have contributed to Tyler’s brake lever bottoming out and not having power at the pads.

We think disk brakes, whether mechanical or hydraulic, when implemented properly, will bring a level of performance and benefit never experienced and are excited to be at the forefront of this revolution. We’re betting our company on it. – Volagi Cycles
Last edited by Nobody on Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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