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Postby mikesbytes » Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:46 pm

europa wrote:That doesn't surprise me, the Ultegra hubs 'felt' heavy.
Mind you, they spin a dream :D

Richard


I'm building bomb proof training wheels, that I'll also use for racing, so I shouldn't get too picky about weight and as you said, they spin well.

Later on, when I've lost what fat I have left and built my fitness up, then I can have a think about some wheels for racing.
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by BNA » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:03 pm

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Postby sogood » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:03 pm

mikesbytes wrote:I'm building bomb proof training wheels, that I'll also use for racing, so I shouldn't get too picky about weight and as you said, they spin well.

Later on, when I've lost what fat I have left and built my fitness up, then I can have a think about some wheels for racing.

But White Industry hubs aren't exactly weaklings either. One key differentiation seemed to be b/n cartridge bearing vs cup and cone bearing.

I know that there's a lot of good reasons for cup and cone bearings as used in Ultegra. But once the surface pits, isn't that the end of them? Cartridge bearings you can replace the unit unless the bearing seat is damaged, right?

In any case, I don't think you have much fat left. Given your level of activities, I'd say you need a race wheel now, even if it's Ultegra. :wink:
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Postby mikesbytes » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:25 pm

There's a considerable cost difference between scoring ultegra hubs and buying white industry hubs. I'd prefer cartridge bearings but as you say there are some arguments supporting cup and cone. I believe you can change the cups on ultegra hubs.

Fat - still got a muffin top :cry:
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Postby sogood » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:45 pm

Didn't look into the price side of things. In any case, I am sure Ultegra is race ready. I'd say you need a race wheel now... What ever that "race wheel" term means. :roll:
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Postby artemidorus » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:17 pm

sogood wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:IBut once the surface pits, isn't that the end of them? Cartridge bearings you can replace the unit unless the bearing seat is damaged, right?

You've got to work pretty hard to pit a higher-end Shimano hub cup. I've done it twice, each time a front hub of a wheel that hit an unmoveable object at >30km/h. Otherwise, the bloody things go forever, even with a bit of neglect thrown in. I've been trying to kill a Deore DX rear hub for 15 years, but the cups look as-new, still. And I don't replace the balls with every repacking. The cost of maintenance is the cost of the grease.
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Postby europa » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:41 pm

I'd rate cup and cone better than cartridge for that very reason - you can maintain them. Hell, it's hard to hurt even cheap cups.

I can't confirm or deny this, but when talking hubs with the mechanic from my lbs, he was convinced the Ultegra would spin better provided you maintained them ... which isn't very high on the list of onerous tasks IMHO. Mind you, I enjoy fiddling with bearings :roll:

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Postby sogood » Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:53 pm

The other question with this cup-cone vs cartridge debate is, what's the advantage of adjustability with cup and cone design? I read that being adjustable is a desirable feature, but why? Isn't there just one setting you should have with bearing pre-load? So why provide that wide range of adjustability?
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Postby toolonglegs » Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:02 pm

My Dura Ace wheel although owned by someone from a bike shop feels like it needs a new cone.Also the free wheel body was loose.What do they say about mechanics and their cars?!.
My long lasting lightweight Kysrium SL front wheel always needs adjusting.It has cartridge bearings but seems to come loose quite often.I originally thought it was the bearings about to go but after doing it up 50 times or more I think they would be gone by now...but then I do have 4 front wheels (SL,DuraAce and Kysrium Elites)to my one rear wheel!.So I can pick and play with my fronts.
Obviously nothing is bombproof...I am building up a Ultegra Hub /DuraAce Ti Freewhell body training wheel...hope they last 20000k's!.
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Postby Bnej » Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:11 pm

sogood wrote:The other question with this cup-cone vs cartridge debate is, what's the advantage of adjustability with cup and cone design? I read that being adjustable is a desirable feature, but why? Isn't there just one setting you should have with bearing pre-load? So why provide that wide range of adjustability?


Ha, I irritate the hell out of people asking questions like that.

You see, you can adjust this....
Why? Can't they set it up properly when it's made?

Apparently people like to fiddle with their bits, and that's just the way it is. ;)
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Postby toolonglegs » Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:14 pm

Bnej wrote:
Apparently people like to fiddle with their bits, and that's just the way it is. ;)



Are we talking bikes here?
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Postby mikesbytes » Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:18 pm

I've heard that the cheaper cup wheels are more difficult to adjust than the better quality ones.
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Postby Bnej » Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:26 pm

toolonglegs wrote:
Bnej wrote:Apparently people like to fiddle with their bits, and that's just the way it is. ;)

Are we talking bikes here?


Everything. :D
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Postby artemidorus » Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:45 pm

toolonglegs wrote:My long lasting lightweight Kysrium SL front wheel always needs adjusting.It has cartridge bearings but seems to come loose quite often.

Mavic hubs lose their preload tuning most times that you take them off the bike. That's why the preload cap spanner comes as a tyre lever - you're supposed to carry it with you at all times. Its a bit of a pain.
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Postby sogood » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:01 pm

Bnej wrote:Ha, I irritate the hell out of people asking questions like that.

You see, you can adjust this....
Why? Can't they set it up properly when it's made?

Apparently people like to fiddle with their bits, and that's just the way it is. ;)

Right! That also defines the difference b/n Windows and Mac users. :wink:
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Postby sogood » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:06 pm

artemidorus wrote:Mavic hubs lose their preload tuning most times that you take them off the bike. That's why the preload cap spanner comes as a tyre lever - you're supposed to carry it with you at all times. Its a bit of a pain.

Mine doesn't go loose but the tension on the skewer can affect it. So I usually do an adjustment with the wheels locked in and then each time use the same tension setting on the skewers. Seemed to work well.
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Postby mikesbytes » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:16 pm

sogood wrote:
Bnej wrote:Ha, I irritate the hell out of people asking questions like that.

You see, you can adjust this....
Why? Can't they set it up properly when it's made?

Apparently people like to fiddle with their bits, and that's just the way it is. ;)

Right! That also defines the difference b/n Windows and Mac users. :wink:


What about Linux?
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Postby sogood » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:26 pm

mikesbytes wrote:What about Linux?

Mac and Linux are friends. After all, Mac OS X is NeXT and in the family of FreeBSD. :D
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Postby toolonglegs » Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:08 am

sogood wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:What about Linux?

Mac and Linux are friends. After all, Mac OS X is NeXT and in the family of FreeBSD. :D

Are there people who still use pc's?...strange!.
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Postby toolonglegs » Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:12 am

artemidorus wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:My long lasting lightweight Kysrium SL front wheel always needs adjusting.It has cartridge bearings but seems to come loose quite often.

Mavic hubs lose their preload tuning most times that you take them off the bike. That's why the preload cap spanner comes as a tyre lever - you're supposed to carry it with you at all times. Its a bit of a pain.

Mine will get play during a ride.Even if (and I have) pulled the axle out and loctited it it still comes loose.Only on my SL...I have two elite wheels which probably haven't been touch this year (10k km's)...this may explain why I am moving away from Kysriums as they are just not lasting long enough (on the back that is).I have too many front wheels due to rear wheel faults!.
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Postby Kid_Carbine » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:33 am

sogood wrote:Mine doesn't go loose but the tension on the skewer can affect it. So I usually do an adjustment with the wheels locked in and then each time use the same tension setting on the skewers. Seemed to work well.
This is the secret to correct adjustment. The final adjustment should be done on the bike itself as the compression effect of a closed skewer causes the locknuts & cones to squeeze together just that tiny little bit & throw your carefully set adjustment right out the window.
So it's fit, test, release, adjust, re-lock the skewer, retest, then release, re-adjust etc untill it's perfect.
Nowhere as hard as it sounds if you have the right tools & attitude.

sogood wrote:I'd say that 347g is sans skewer weight.

If you check WW, they are listing that same hub for around 410g with skewer. So there you go, opportunity to swap in that 25g skewer of your. :wink:


When it comes to weight in wheels, I still ponder what it is that we are actually weighing.
Is it the mass of the whole wheel assembly complete? If so, then why leave out the skewer? [when used]
Is it the rotating mass of the wheel? If so, then why include the axle & cones?
If just bare overall weight of the finished bike is so important, then a laxative before riding would help as would leaving the bidon behind, but we never do these [well I don't] so it's really the rotating mass of the wheel that is really the important component

If we are looking for a 'lively' wheel, then surely we need to reduce the mass of the rim as this is where the greatest inertia is. [flywheel effect] This is the part that sees the greatest linear acceleration rates while the hub mass, being located so much closer to the center, will offer much less rotational inertia, gramme for gramme, so a wheel with a heavier hub & light rim would [theoretically] perform better than an identical weight wheel with light hub & heavier rim.

What I'm saying here is that it's not just the actual weight of the wheel by itself, that affects performance, but where the weight is located.

Your thoughts?
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Postby artemidorus » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:43 am

toolonglegs wrote:
sogood wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:What about Linux?

Mac and Linux are friends. After all, Mac OS X is NeXT and in the family of FreeBSD. :D

Are there people who still use pc's?...strange!.

Youbetcha! When macs cost the same as, and are as upgradeable as, pcs, I'll get one! (in fact, I did get an old imac for $30, but apple, in their wisdom, are not maintaining OS9 security, so I won't use it). When Linux works as seamlessly as Windows, then I'll go over. (MythTV just doesn't quite cut it - back end isn't stable enough)
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Postby Kid_Carbine » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:58 am

toolonglegs wrote:Are there people who still use pc's?...strange!.

Nothing strange about it at all.
I can go to a computer fair in Wollongong & buy any & all of the components I need to build or update my computer for very little. I can buy replacements for any dud or underperforming part from a wide number of different makers & can haggle between sellers for the best deal.
The finished product may not perform like a supercomputer, but it does everything that I need, with a degree of component flexibility that is unmatched by any other computer system & all at a price that keeps me & my wallet very happy.

My sons like their PC's too, largely because of the tidal wave of programs that are available for them. Mostly games, but if there is a program that is available for a computer, then it's available for a PC first.

I wonder what the Apple/Mac market penetration figure is, expressed as a % of the total global sales of PC's & PC components.
The Apple/Mac may actually be a superior product, but it can't match the PC for availability, price, flexibility in specification, ease of upgrade, availability of components & ease of building a new one, or upgrading in the home, & availability of software programs of all types.
Did I mention Price?
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Postby artemidorus » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:10 am

toolonglegs wrote:Mine will get play during a ride.Even if (and I have) pulled the axle out and loctited it it still comes loose.

You mean you loctite the preload cap thread and it still loosens? How tight do you have your skewers? They are supposed to lock the cap on the axle.
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Postby sogood » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:11 am

Kid_Carbine wrote:When it comes to weight in wheels, I still ponder what it is that we are actually weighing.
Is it the mass of the whole wheel assembly complete? If so, then why leave out the skewer? [when used]
Is it the rotating mass of the wheel? If so, then why include the axle & cones?
If just bare overall weight of the finished bike is so important, then a laxative before riding would help as would leaving the bidon behind, but we never do these [well I don't] so it's really the rotating mass of the wheel that is really the important component

If we are looking for a 'lively' wheel, then surely we need to reduce the mass of the rim as this is where the greatest inertia is. [flywheel effect] This is the part that sees the greatest linear acceleration rates while the hub mass, being located so much closer to the center, will offer much less rotational inertia, gramme for gramme, so a wheel with a heavier hub & light rim would [theoretically] perform better than an identical weight wheel with light hub & heavier rim.

Which components you include is relevant when you are comparing wheelsets, similar to how bike weights are typically compared (without pedals). Also, many people use 3rd party skewers.

By calculation, wheel rim makes very little difference for the rotational speeds and typical commercial rim weights seen on bikes. But yes, every bit counts if you want to reduce weight. IIRC, those track disc wheels used for the kilo event use heavy lead weights near the rim.
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Postby sogood » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:16 am

As can be seen, computer allegiance can be a religion too, just like bikes.

The facts of the matter are, 1) Apple is no longer more expensive when compared with name brands. 2) Enjoy virus threats on PCs.
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