Any problems with riding on badly pitted cup/cone

[eeksll]

Thought I might do some maintenance yesterday, noticed the rear wheel of my Shimano R500 is badly pitted on the freehub/cassette side. Which was initially good cause I thought I might just be able to replace the freehub.

But did a bit of google price searching last night and it looks like to get a new freehub ($40 ish) and bearings ($5-10) end rear axle rebuild kit ($20) is going to be the same cost as a new rear wheel from wiggle.

So thought I might just repack everything and ride with pitted cup/cone.

I am assuming no issues riding on it, but thought I might ask to check.
I also assume no warranty cover on this issue. (also the fact I took it apart).

[foo on patrol]

You will chew the crap out of the bearings real quick!

[mark field]

I quite like the idea of getting some new bits that keep the toy ship shape, take advantage and turn your maintenance into a parts upgrade, you wont be sorry if you do. Id go with the same wheel and replace what needs replacing , i would expect whats happened on the rear wheel bearing cups would be happening on the front also, perhaps a visit to ebay would net you a set of front and rear hubs at a modest price and lacing up wheels is fairly easy and if youve done it once a whole new world will open up to you. And lets be honest - whats the point of maintenance if you dont replace worn parts

[eeksll]

I quite like the idea of getting some new bits that keep the toy ship shape, take advantage and turn your maintenance into a parts upgrade, you wont be sorry if you do. Id go with the same wheel and replace what needs replacing , i would expect whats happened on the rear wheel bearing cups would be happening on the front also, perhaps a visit to ebay would net you a set of front and rear hubs at a modest price and lacing up wheels is fairly easy and if youve done it once a whole new world will open up to you. And lets be honest - whats the point of maintenance if you dont replace worn parts

I guess the lesson here is to work out the prices before dismantling

Rebuilding the wheel is something i would not mind giving a go since I have a spare wheel set now to take as long as I need to. But I'd be doubt I'd be looking for any serious upgrade for my first try at this. Secondly Ill need to find another hub of exact size otherwise I dont think I can reuse the spokes either.

I have put it back together for now and I'll see what I can learn in the mean time.

[Nate]

not too sure in the bicycle world, but ANY marks on an automotive bearing is instant cause to bin it.. but you're typically dealing with much higher loads & speeds.

i'd replace ASAP - for your own safety.
It might start generating excessive heat... breakdown the grease & then cause all sorts of issues?

[ozjolly]

I've just come across a similar situation. Got an old bike that got caught in the car park at work and copped the floods earlier this year. Instead of binning it it's becoming a restoration project to learn a bit.

When I got into the hubs, noticed that the cones had a few marks/pits on them. Hub seems ok. Looking for new cones though, neither of the LBSs I've tried sell them. So what are my options? Any suggestions regarding where I can find a new cones?

[Lark2004]

Looking for new cones though, neither of the LBSs I've tried sell them. So what are my options? Any suggestions regarding where I can find a new cones?

I don't know which bike shops your going to that don't sell cones (unless it's Goldcross... who probably do have the parts, but don't know what they are or where they go), but on the Northside of town I'd go to Ridgeways at Everton Park... Simon has everything.... in a box..... somewhere.... you'll see what I mean if you go there

[ldrcycles]

I don't know which bike shops your going to that don't sell cones (unless it's Goldcross... who probably do have the parts, but don't know what they are or where they go),

+1, i went to the Maroochydore Goldcross not long after it opened and the staff were all rude and didn't sound like they had a damn clue.

[ozjolly]

unless it's Goldcross... who probably do have the parts, but don't know what they are or where they go),

One of them was a Goldcross store. Don't blame me, I got a gift voucher and so have to buy something from there!

I'll suss out a few of the more reputable (not so local) bike shops. Thanks.

[jules21]

i am a bit of a tighta**e with some of my commuter kit and have been riding on badly pitted rear axle bearings for... years now. i give my bike absolute hell - it gets ridden daily, used and abused. it goes off-road occasionally and off kerbs regularly. despite noticeable roughness when spinning the rear wheel, it hasn't missed a beat and continues to spin freely. in fact i consider that i'm conducting an experiment on how far i can make it go.

my suggestion is - fix it if you're fussy, this is the correct thing to do, but you probably won't notice anything if you don't - i'll bet it continues to work fine.

OTOH, if the wheel doesn't spin freely, i would consider a repair to be more urgent.

doubtless this is unconventional advice, but i can only relate that it's caused me no issues. i'd be more conservative with the front wheel though.

[ozjolly]

I'll suss out a few of the more reputable (not so local) bike shops.

OK, another bike shop that doesn't sell cones. What do these shops do if I come in with a bike with stuffed bearings? Sell me a new bike?

Any tips for where I can buy these sorts of parts online?

[Lark2004]

have you been to Strathpine cycles?

[human909]

i'd replace ASAP - for your own safety.

Safety!? Hardly. Smoothness of bearings? Yes.

It might start generating excessive heat... breakdown the grease & then cause all sorts of issues?

None of them are a significant safety concern.

[human909]

until the bearing collapses, that could cause handling to be compromised at a time that is not convenient to the rider, like a fast downhill run.

The bearing collapses? I'm not sure what you mean here? The bearing in this case is several round balls of steel. I'm not sure how a round ball of steel can collapse. Would you like to elaborate further on this processes?

[sblack]

I'll suss out a few of the more reputable (not so local) bike shops.

OK, another bike shop that doesn't sell cones. What do these shops do if I come in with a bike with stuffed bearings? Sell me a new bike?

Any tips for where I can buy these sorts of parts online?

SJS Cycles is where I found new cones for my R500 wheels.

[human909]

until the bearing collapses, that could cause handling to be compromised at a time that is not convenient to the rider, like a fast downhill run.

The bearing collapses? I'm not sure what you mean here? The bearing in this case is several round balls of steel. I'm not sure how a round ball of steel can collapse. Would you like to elaborate further on this processes?

Yes, as Nate pointed out, if excessive heat is generated, the lubricant breaks down, creating even more heat. This creates unecessary stress on the components leading to premature failure. The steel balls do not always stay round and running them in a pitted cup/cone can cause them to deteriorate to the point where they disintegrate or at least wear prematurely, then the bearing starts to collapse. I didn't say the balls collapse, I said the bearing collapses. The bearing collapses when its components begin to fail.

All this is completely and utterly vague and still doesn't answer the question. Nor do you even describe what collapses. What unnecessary stresses are there? how does this cause steel to fail? You said: "I didn't say the balls collapse, I said the bearing collapses". The balls are the bearings!

I've personally taken apart and put back together many cup and cone bearing assemblies. I've seen shockingly pitted ball bearings and cups and cones. Many times I've repacked such assemblies and they continue to run just fine. Pitting just adds friction but given the relatively slow rotational speed in bike wheels that still isn't a big deal. Heat is no problem at all and is pretty much existent. Besides what sort of temperatures do you think you need to put heat stress on steel?

Your assertions are baseless and have no grounding in reality. Cones can't collapse. Balls can't collapse. In extreme cases cups can shear off but this isn't cause by pitted surfaces. Cartridge bearing are fully contained and enclosed they can't collapse in any direction.

[human909]

Fair enough, you seem to just know all. Maybe I should have used the word failure and not collapse, does that make a difference?

Only if you describe what fails, how it fails and how this presents a significant safety concern.

Either way, using pitted cups and cones will cause greater stress on the bearings. It will not be a matter of if but when, like any damaged part that is used beyond its reasonable service life.

And bearings that are used beyond their reasonable service life increasingly cause more friction and run less smoothly. The don't catastrophically fail or collapse causing a safety issue.

If you have pulled apart so many bearings and have yet to come across a set of balls that are not perfect, then I suggest you have not pulled enough apart.

I said in my previous post about pitted ball bearings.

Balls go out of round, fall apart and disintegrate, this will cause failure/collapse of the structure.

In the worst case scenario a ball might crack and split. This will cause significantly more friction. It won't however cause a sudden collapse/failure of the 'structure'.


I give up responding. You are completely talking vaguely about 'failure', 'collapse' without actually describing what is occurring and why. Have you ever even seen a 'collapsed' cup-cone bearing. You might as well be talking about the loch ness monster.

[mark field]

i used to restore old bikes back in the late 90's - 00's , the worst case i found on a road bike was the bottom headset cup was worn so bad that it split almost one third of the way around where the bearings sit. the bearings themselves were like id never seen, almost "like two cells dividing" as my mate put it . had someone been riding this bike it would have ended with a catastrophic failure resulting in serious injury. i think that as the cups were getting worn the owner kept tightening to get rid of the slack and some things can take only so much. i only ever saw it once but it hung up in me and my mates garage for years, along with some brakes that had the rubber pads worn down to the metal.

[human909]

i used to restore old bikes back in the late 90's - 00's , the worst case i found on a road bike was the bottom headset cup was worn so bad that it split almost one third of the way around where the bearings sit. the bearings themselves were like id never seen, almost "like two cells dividing" as my mate put it . had someone been riding this bike it would have ended with a catastrophic failure resulting in serious injury. i think that as the cups were getting worn the owner kept tightening to get rid of the slack and some things can take only so much. i only ever saw it once but it hung up in me and my mates garage for years, along with some brakes that had the rubber pads worn down to the metal.

Yep. Cup failure can occur. My experience was when I got my rear wheel caught in tram tracks while riding down smith st. I yanked it out but it had put severe stress on the wheel in the axial direction. The next day I notice a bit of slackness in the bearing but I was off to work so I just tightened it a bit and was going to look at it later. 3 days later I was in the rush to get to a shop before it closed when things really started going pear shaped. The wheel was screaming like a banshee but I figured the hub was pretty gone anyway so I kept on riding. By the time I was on my way home the rear wheel wouldn't even turn when the bike was being pushed. But I rode it home regardless as it was quicker than walking!

Before throwing the wheel in the bin I opened up the hub to find that the cup had shear and that the hub was riding on the axle on one side, no bearing at all. Yes the hub was hot too. It was hilarious. Steel is not brittle, even if you have cup failure its not going to go from 100% working to 0% working in 10seconds. There is ample warning that something is amiss before failure.

Yes wheels/hubs/bearings can fail. However this has nothing to do with pitted ball bearings, that is what we are talking about here!

[Nate]

back in the day about 15years ago, i was riding & something happened on the bike & i went flying...
bearing in the pedal broke in half! over the front i went when i was going up a hill.

Sure its very unlikely, but its just common sense & risk mitigation.
"yeah i've ridden that frame with the huge crack in it for years, never an issue - it gets wider & wider but never gives me troubles"

Only has to go bad once & you're in a lot of trouble... your choice
I'd much rather be erring on the side of caution & safety when giving out advice on someone else's heath & wellbeing.

[human909]

I'd much rather be erring on the side of caution & safety when giving out advice on someone else's heath & wellbeing.

To an extent I agree. However that often get taken to the extreme like "a helmet should be thrown away if you drop it from 1m". There is a difference between erring on the side of caution and being irrational. If somebody is so paranoid as to worry about the safety affects of a pitted ball bearing then it would be safer to stay off the bike. There are numerous hidden dangers on a bike that could cause safety issues. Many of them could give very little warning before failure. Pitted ball bearings is not one of them. A pitted ball has not effect on the structural integrity of the bearing assembly.

I have been servicing bikes and bearings for years a pitted ball is not a safety issue.

[jules21]

over the weekend I did Bike Tech support for the Conquer Cancer ride, this an example of a collapsed/failed bearing, yes its from a headset, but imagine the same in a wheel bearing.

but that would have been caused by something other than just general roughness. i've experienced failed bearings, most notably BB cup and cone, and it takes a lot of abuse to get them to that stage. my experience, and i'm not a foremost expert, but i've found that major damage tends to result from letting the bearing run dry for too long. pitted cups and cones will surely cause damage over time, but if they're properly greased up and tensioned, i doubt they are at risk of imminent failure.

[mark field]

[/quote]


looks like someone forgot to shave

[il padrone]

over the weekend I did Bike Tech support for the Conquer Cancer ride, this an example of a collapsed/failed bearing, yes its from a headset, but imagine the same in a wheel bearing.

but that would have been caused by something other than just general roughness. i've experienced failed bearings, most notably BB cup and cone, and it takes a lot of abuse to get them to that stage. my experience, and i'm not a foremost expert, but i've found that major damage tends to result from letting the bearing run dry for too long. pitted cups and cones will surely cause damage over time, but if they're properly greased up and tensioned, i doubt they are at risk of imminent failure.

I had some headset bearings fail on me on a ride long ago. They were standard balls in a retainer - the retainer failed and a bearing or three cracked up. We were riding our tandem up a climb and straight away it became unrideable - seized steering.

With a bit of work from riding buddies and a passing 4WD's gearbox oil drips we did a classic bush-mechanic's repair - changed the bearing to loose balls (not a full complement) and the bike was fine to complete the ride.

[JADASSOCIATES]

We are bearing failure analysis experts and generally a worn cage is due to loss of or lack of lubricant. Shattered cages and raceways are often the result of shock loading. From my experience I would be looking at head stock sealing (do I see rust on the cage in the picture supplied?) and lubricant fill (both type and quantity).

There are a few pictures of bearing failure modes on our web site http://www.jadanalysis.co.uk. hope this helps.

If anyone wants to post a few more pictures of failures I'd be happy to cast an eye over them