The Black Beast returns

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The Black Beast returns

Postby europa » Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:15 pm

... kicking and swearing every inch of the way ... oh, hang on, that's me :?

I tried to keep a blow by blow running but the naughty words filter kept throwing it back :shock:

Yes, it's been THAT sort of project and it isn't even close to finished.

Firstly, what we have now:

Image

It's been ridden but is nowhere near complete - basically I got enough bits working to get her to roll and stop and gave her a run. I'm still here to talk about it so you may assume I've achieved some level of success.

The role of this bike will be to tow the tag-along, the dog, the shopping and commute 25km to the city twice a week. I dare say I'll do other stuff but those are it's 'core duties' (and we all know how nebulous they are :roll: ).

The heart is my Trek520 frame and Maverick wheelset (32mm tyres).
Brakes are Avid5 V brakes, the ones that came with the bike.
The carrier (to replace the sort of bent Trek carrier) is the Topeak I bought for another job and didn't use.

Mulger Bill mentioned that he had a heap of old mtb bits lying around and the thought 'cheap rebuild' flashed into my mind. Sadly, instead of getting lost within that cavern of despair, I decided to run with the idea.

Mulger provided me a well used but very nice set of Deore shifters, Deore front dr, Deore rear dr and those bars you see in the picture. He was also able to source the Sugino crankset you see fitted (though the chainrings are a mixed bag of Shimano, FSA and un-branded) and a bottom bracket.

Good start I thought.

Sadly, he didn't have brake levers, chain, cassette ... and the bb was too short.

Okay, a quick order to ChainReaction.
New cassette and chain - they went onto the Jamis and the old ones came onto the Beast.

I fitted the new bb from ChainReaction, and managed to stuff the installation up (don't ask, it was a torrid evening) :? Nothing the lbs couldn't fix :D Oh, and part of the problem was I'd bought the wrong bb so the lbs had to supply ANOTHER flamin' bb.

The old cassette returned to it's original home on the Trek. I mounted up the rear dr and set about fitting the chain. Too short - I'd had to shorten it for service on the Jamis. Reckon I could find the links I'd removed? Pah.
Anyway, all sorted, chain is now the right length and joined with a removable link. I think I should pass over that period of the rebuild too, especially the bit where I managed to bend the tooth on my new chain breaker :shock: How the flamin' heck do you bend those things?

Anyway, we now had rear dr and chain installed.

The rear dr adjusted up perfectly, easily and quickly ... once I'd worked out how to install the cable in the Deore shifters. Yes Mulger, it WAS easy ... once I knew about that little screw.

Now the front dr. It DIDN'T BLOODY FIT! That's right. The bracket is too large. Remember me having that problem when I moved the dr from the Trek to the Jamis? At least I knew about packing the bracket now, so I did that, got the dr in the right spot and set about adjusting the limit screws. Easy job eh?

NO!

Let me say that again.

NO!

Oh, the max limit screw was easy enough, I just wound that right out and it seemed happy. But the min limit screw. It didn't matter what I did, I could not get the chain to shift onto the small ring. I even took the adjusting screw right out, cleaned up the already clean dr. Nope, that cage was just not going to go across far enough to lift the chain from the middle ring.

Remembering that the original dr (a 105 dr) was on the Jamis, and it's bracket was too large for the Jamis, I thought I'd try that. Pulled it off the Jamis, mounted it back on the Trek and voila, I could set the lower limit low enough to be able to shift onto the small ring.

Anyone spotted the problem yet?

That's right. The 105 dr and the Deore dr have a different throw rate. I could adjust the 105 dr to give me all three chainrings, but ONE click on the Deore shifter moved you from small to large, bypassing the middle ring altogether.

You may assume that this too was a colourful evening.

So, the 105 dr came off and the Deore dr went back on.

Now, remember that the Deore dr has a bracket that is too large for the seat tube, something I'd overcome using some packing under the bracket. By placing all the packing on the bolt side of the clamp, and letting the cage side of the dr rest against the seat tube, I was able to move the dr across a little. Not a lot, but just enough to eventually shift the chain from the middle ring onto the small ring.

So now I could access the large ring, the middle ring and the small ring, though the change onto the small ring is very slow ... when it happens. How long can you see me putting up with that?

Further, after adjusting the cable, I can not use the full cassette with the middle ring, and there appears to be no trim function on the shifter - I actually get scraping on BOTH the end cogs. Was this a 9 speed dr Mulger? It'd answer a few questions if it's not.
Ironically, thanks to the shape of the cage and the tiny diameter of the small ring, I can use the full cassette from the small ring, just not from the middle ring.

So now I had a bike with gears and the budgie has learnt a lot of new words.

Brakes.

Easy huh?

Well no. Trek have chosen to put the upper carrier mounting points at the same height as the top of the brake arms :shock: WHY?
Okay, more swearing and some creative bending of the carrier mounting arms.

After that, the rear brakes were set up relatively painlessly.
Front brake went ... oh hang on. Let's just say I was able to get around that one and she now had brakes at both ends :?

And that's where she's at in the photo.

I haven't done a bike fit yet, though the saddle hadn't been moved from previous use so it's close to the right height.
It's got that dreadful Bontrager saddle :?
The gears sort of worked but to change onto the small ring, you flick the lever then make a cup of tea while you wait. Rear changes are good.
Brakes worked.
She felt smooth.

The bars are near the height of the saddle. The neck is that short one I was sold instead of the long one I ordered way back when. It gives me the height but the reach is shortened. I'm going to try leaving the bars at that height, but have left the cables long enough to install the neck extender if I decide to lift them above the seat for a genuinely upright position. The reach feels odd but that might be because I've been on the bent of late.

So, back to the fray. Now I need to sort out the grips and bar ends and lever positions ... oh, and the fit - I'd better do that first.

The Black Beast is back ... almost, but by cripes it's been a challenge and no, it hasn't proven to be a cheap rebuild :?

Richard
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by BNA » Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:51 pm

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Postby MountGower » Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:51 pm

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Postby heavymetal » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:54 pm

Sounds like fun. You've caught my habit - fitting parts to bikes that weren't meant to fit.

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Postby Mulger bill » Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:58 pm

I feel insulted :roll:

It's an LX rear mech, I'm sure I didn't scrub the 9 speed sticker off the cage.

BTW, shifting and braking will be more comfortable if you angle the controls down somewhat so that your wrist is straight when resting fingers on the brakes.

Hmmm, you sure the chain aint too long? Can we see a pic from the drive side? Breaking chainbreakers is a muggins thing methinks :wink:

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Postby europa » Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:54 am

Mulger bill wrote:I feel insulted :roll:

It's an LX rear mech, I'm sure I didn't scrub the 9 speed sticker off the cage.


It's the front one I'm querying. Is that a 9? I hope not.

You're right about the rear dr being an LX. That has given me no grief at all.

I tell you what, there's a dramatic difference between Deore and LX stuff. Even the new Deore brake levers I bought feel cheap and nasty. The bent has a Deore rear dr and I'm still deciding how much of the lousy shifting is the Deore dr and how much is the twist grip shifters.

No need to feel insulted either, it wasn't intended and not warranted. I'm genuinely grateful for the parts and the effort you put in.

I reckon those bars are going to be perfect - enough rise to get the height right without going stupid and the angles on the bits you hold seem to suit my wrists perfectly, I can understand why you described them as 'very comfortable'.


BTW, shifting and braking will be more comfortable if you angle the controls down somewhat so that your wrist is straight when resting fingers on the brakes.


I know that. The levers are just where they wound up during the bolting together phase which was so bloody stressful I just wanted to get out and ride the thing. I was amazed at how smooth she is.

The plan is to fit the grips and bar ends. Then move the brake levers against the grips and angle them so that when my fingers are resting on the levers, my wrist and forearm are straight (or whatever feels best near there). That will then allow me to position the shifters in the least annoying position.

Hmmm, you sure the chain aint too long? Can we see a pic from the drive side? Breaking chainbreakers is a muggins thing methinks :wink:

Shaun


Originally, the chain was one link shorter. At that length, if you wrapped it around the large cog and large ring, the ends would just meet. When threaded through the dr, the rear dr was pulled almost dead straight. I used that length because that was the length that came off the Jamis (shorter rear forks on the Jamis, but with a larger big ring).

The length you see now is one link longer than that and yes, if I wasn't completely sure of the length, I'd be thinking it was a bit long too. A half link instead of a full link might have been a better choice.

The chainbreaker? Brand new chain breaker - it's the one Craig sent me with the bent. Second time I've used it (the first was the break the chain to get it off the Jamis). I didn't notice the tooth slip off the edge of the pin until too late - maybe it had a slight bend to start with and believe me, they are the merry dickens to straighten again. I might have to spend some money and buy a good one ... but not for this project.

I've always been leery of these links that you can just break with your fingers (I'm using a connex) because up to now, I've just cut a chain to length, fitted it, taken it off only when stuffed - a removable link is just something else to go wrong. Well with all the stuffing about with the front dr, I've broken this chain about six times now - thank heavens I had a spare removable link lying around.

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Postby Birdman » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:03 am

I'll tell you what Richard...i never get bored reading your bicycle sagas. Its actually quite amazing how someone can do so much work on bikes, still get it wrong (sometimes), and break tools which are meant to break other things.

I enjoy it. I like the Trek, you have got something going which was imobile and i think that is a good skill and something you should be proud of. Can't wait to see your site and whatever it is you make next. Its that sort of thing which makes me want to restore bikes for the fun of it (maybe when i get both of mine rideable).

Mitch.
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Postby LuckyPierre » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:10 am

europa wrote: The bent has a Deore rear dr and I'm still deciding how much of the lousy shifting is the Deore dr and how much is the twist grip shifters.

Deore gear is loosley 105 standard - and twist grip shifters are usually crap (I know, that's how SRAM got started and Nexus uses twist grips) so I expect the fault lies there. That said, LX gear should be better, the XT stuff definitely is.
On the bent, you probably have to factor in the long shifter cable runs and lthe ong chain, as the amount of 'cable slap' available really impacts shifting.
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Postby europa » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:18 am

That damned front dr.

I keep saying I hope it's not a 9 because of the range of movement - I want to be able to use the full range of cogs at the back when on the middle ring. Is there a trim adjustment on the deore shifters? Or am I missing something.

Why couldn't I adjust the low stop far enough in?

My guess is that there is more to the clamp than just the diameter, I reckon it positions the mechanism (distance from centre line of bike) as well and this varies with each clamp, which is why you don't can't buy drs and clamps seperately.

This sounds daft, but the theory fits the evidence.

The seat tube on the Trek is too small for the clamp, so I wrapped packing around it, the idea being that this would give the clamp an even surface on which to grip. Unfortunately, that pushed the dr mechanism away from the seat tube.

Initial thoughts would suggest that this wouldn't matter because the bottom bracket shell would just stick out further from the seat tube - that's what happened when I took the dr off the Trek and put it on the Jamis. However when fitting this dr onto the Trek, it did make a difference. And maybe the cranks sit a bit close to the bike too, though they don't look it. We're only talking a mm here, not huge distances you'd see without measuring them.

When I moved the packing to one side of the seat tube, the opposite side to the dr mechanism, I allowed the bracket to side hard against the seat tube which move the cage over just enough to allow it to do its job.

Unfortunately, the clamp now has uneven pressure on the seat tube - metal clamp against the tube on one side, plastic packing on the other, gaps where the packing ends. The smart move wil be to fit the right sized dr ... and hoping the thing has enough range to cover the three rings and a wide enough cage to allow me to use all nine cogs when on the middle ring.

I won't go buying a new dr until I've decided on the gearing. She has mtb gearing now, which is a lot lower than I used before and was quite happy with. I'm thinking the mtb gearing will be good when you consider that this will be a tow vehicle. If that proves to be correct, I'll get an LX front dr. If I decide I want to go back to more road orientated gearing, I'll use the old 105 dr ... but then I'll need different shifters. Hmm, mtb gearing is sounding very good :?

You watch, I'll get it right and some barsteward will flog it from Uni :roll:

Was anyone else aware that the throw on mtb front shifters is half that on road shifters? It surprised me but the deore shifters definitely moved the chain from the granny to the large ring with one click. I remember thinking at the time that Kev would love this seeing he uses friction shifters.

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Postby europa » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:21 am

LuckyPierre wrote:
europa wrote: The bent has a Deore rear dr and I'm still deciding how much of the lousy shifting is the Deore dr and how much is the twist grip shifters.

Deore gear is loosley 105 standard - and twist grip shifters are usually crap (I know, that's how SRAM got started and Nexus uses twist grips) so I expect the fault lies there. That said, LX gear should be better, the XT stuff definitely is.
On the bent, you probably have to factor in the long shifter cable runs and lthe ong chain, as the amount of 'cable slap' available really impacts shifting.


That's pretty much as I'd guessed it, just didn't have the experience with the various parts to know for sure.

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Postby europa » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:21 am

Birdman wrote:I'll tell you what Richard...i never get bored reading your bicycle sagas. Its actually quite amazing how someone can do so much work on bikes, still get it wrong (sometimes), and break tools which are meant to break other things.

I enjoy it. I like the Trek, you have got something going which was imobile and i think that is a good skill and something you should be proud of. Can't wait to see your site and whatever it is you make next. Its that sort of thing which makes me want to restore bikes for the fun of it (maybe when i get both of mine rideable).

Mitch.


Thanks mate.

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Postby Kid_Carbine » Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:43 am

If the front derailleur is correctly mounted on the tube, & you can't pick up either the outer or inner ring, then the B/B axle is the wrong length for that particular combination of derailleur, crankset, & B/B axle.

The correct B/B axle will place the centerline of the middle chainring in line with the middle sprocket of your 9 speed rear cluster. Some minor adjustment of the rear axle spacing may be helpfull here, & wheel re-dishing if necessary, but right down the middle it's supposed to go & it might be necessary to get another B/B assembly with a different length on the drive side to achieve this.

Having got that all lined up, you must now use a derailleur that works with that chainring positioning & I believe that the positioning of the cage & the length of lateral sweep do not seem to be the same for all. I came across this problem when needing to replace a B/B in one of my hire bikes & the new one that was on the bench, the right one for the earlier Merida bikes that we have, is a little shorter on the drive side than the one that the newer Meridas use. This of course caused much grief untill I gave up & purchased a new replacement B/B assembly as per the old sample. What a pain.
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Postby thomas_cho » Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:06 pm

Kid is correct, the problem is with your chainline. Not sure what BB you have, but you may be able to use a spacer to adjust the chainline for better shifting.

The pull ratios for shimano MTB and road gear are the same (as far as I know). I have a MTB rear derailleur doing the shifting on a 10 spd drive train.

I went through a lot trying to get my front shifting perfect on the Mongoose Randonneur. I had a 105 FD with a LX Chainset (external bearings). Previously I had tried the MTB FD, I think this had a greater range of movement. But I could not get either FD to shift to the large chainring smoothly. I tried for months to get the shifting right .. until it occurred to me that I could adjust the chainline by adjusting the spacers.

That solved my problem.
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Postby europa » Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:53 pm

thomas_cho wrote:The pull ratios for shimano MTB and road gear are the same (as far as I know). I have a MTB rear derailleur doing the shifting on a 10 spd drive train. .


No problems on the rear - I've been using DeoreLX rear drs with Ultegra shifters.

That's on the REAR.

My problem is on the front and there, the pull ratio is definitely very different - the mtb shifter moves the 105 dr across TWO rings for one click.

As for the chainline - will check it out as soon as I've finished my cuppa tea.

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Postby europa » Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:22 pm

The plot sickens (rats, not barfing smilie).

The chainline might be a poofteenth out of line though it depended on whether I crossed my eyes to the left or crossed them to the right.

Just had a chat with the mechanic who fitted the bottom bracket for me.

First off, the bb fitted is the only one that's going to work on my bike. Okay, my bs meter pinged at that too, but he's a good wrench and knows I'm a regular customer, so he's probably right. As soon as started to describe the problem, he asked if it was the right dr for the frame. Bingo. It makes a difference.

They've got a new LX dr in stock, in my frame size, bottom pull. Guess who's going down to buy a new part.

Richard
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Postby europa » Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:30 pm

europa wrote:They've got a new LX dr in stock, in my frame size, bottom pull. Guess who's going down to buy a new part.


Nope. When I got there and he had another look at the dr, it was a top pull :? A rummage through their parts drawer failed to produce a bottom pull dr (or even a dual pull) - they had just about anything else you could imagine of course.

He did however, have a look at the bike and confirmed (again) my thoughts that the problem is the dr and if I get one with the right clamp size, I'll be right.

I then mentioned my experiences with the 105. He was surprised at that. Yes, the road drs and the mtb drs do use a different pull rate, but he seemed to think that it could be done, the shifts wouldn't be perfect but they'd work. He also commented that the cable tension was quite touchy so it's possible that I just had the cable a bit tight. Time for another fiddle?

Not immediately.

Half way home, I remembered that I'd already trimmed the shifter cable and that the 105 dr sits a lot further up the seat tube than the deore dr. Further, I'd trimmed the cable at the point where the 105 dr had crushed the cable. Sooooo, if I want to try the 105 again, I have to buy another new cable first 8)

Yes, it's all minor stuff, but it's starting to get on my goat :?

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Postby europa » Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:53 pm

So I thought I'd go shopping on ChainReaction, just to see what's there. Bloody mtbs, there are more options than a modern coffee shop.

Note, I've got a 48 tooth large ring and many front drs are made for 44 tooth rings.

Is the unit I need?

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?modelID=6074

Lightweight front derailleur for smooth gear changes

Dual Pull design for use with top or bottom cable routing


Reinforced chain guide adds rigidity and improved response
Wider pivot link increases torsional rigidity

Designed with Mega-9 compatibility for narrow 9-speed chains

PLEASE NOTE THIS IS CONVENTIONAL STYLE SWING"


Image

What on earth is 'conventional style swing"?

And if my thoughts on the problem are anything like correct, as the mechanic seems to confirm, how come they fit multiple sized tubes? I tried putting a spacer in the behind the clamp and it didn't work.

Richard
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Postby Birdman » Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:58 pm

europa wrote:
Yes, it's all minor stuff, but it's starting to get on my goat :?

Richard


But it is always the little minor things which make us the most frustrated and usually makes us end up going to the LBS over and over because every time we are just that little bit out.

Goodluck and relax.

Mitch.
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Postby heavymetal » Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:24 pm

europa wrote:Was anyone else aware that the throw on mtb front shifters is half that on road shifters? It surprised me but the deore shifters definitely moved the chain from the granny to the large ring with one click. I remember thinking at the time that Kev would love this seeing he uses friction shifters.


:lol: Can't beat friction shifters :D

I just got my new XT FD, top swing, multi clamp (fits my down tube) and dual pull :D

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Postby heavymetal » Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:27 pm

europa wrote:What on earth is 'conventional style swing"?


I believe it's the one in the picture. The mounting clamp is above the derailleur cage. Very similiar to most road derailleurs. The new FD I just got also comes in a bottom swing, where the clamp is below the FD cage.

My new Apollo has a bottom swing FD.

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Postby heavymetal » Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:33 pm

More options

Some of the FDs come with different angle mounting. So if your downtube is at an angle of 63 - 66 degrees, order one in that range. Some models have different degree ranges.

I learnt all this before ordering my new FD to replace the icy pole stick Sora FD that was on the bike. Now the only problem I have is the lower water cage bolt is in the way.

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Postby thomas_cho » Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:09 pm

europa wrote:
thomas_cho wrote:The pull ratios for shimano MTB and road gear are the same (as far as I know). I have a MTB rear derailleur doing the shifting on a 10 spd drive train. .


No problems on the rear - I've been using DeoreLX rear drs with Ultegra shifters.

That's on the REAR.

My problem is on the front and there, the pull ratio is definitely very different - the mtb shifter moves the 105 dr across TWO rings for one click.

As for the chainline - will check it out as soon as I've finished my cuppa tea.

Richard


I used to have a flat bar apollo swift. Had MTB shifters shifting a Sora FD on a MTB crankset. Never had a problem with this combination.
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Postby Mulger bill » Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:24 pm

All nine speed gear Richard, as came with Princess ex factory.
My first thought was chainline, is the BB spindle 115mm? Never thought of seat tube angle.

Kev was right, topswing mechs have the cage above the parallelogram(sp), conventionals below. The one I shipped is topswing.

I'm suprised there's issues between the front mech and shifter, being the same group and all, but if there's one thing your musings should have taught us, it's never assume wrenching is gonna be as simple as it should be :roll:

I'm sorry this is proving to be a PITA, I really want you to be happy with this seeing as there's a fair bit of my history being reborn in the Beast, if those bits could talk... :D

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Postby europa » Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:55 pm

Mulger bill wrote:I'm sorry this is proving to be a PITA, I really want you to be happy with this seeing as there's a fair bit of my history being reborn in the Beast, if those bits could talk... :D

Shaun


Mate, the only feelings you should be having are feelings of pride at having triggered this. It wouldn't have happened without your generous offering of parts and as you say, that frame deserved better than just rotting in the shed. She probably doesn't deserve to be suffering under my ownership but stiff showtime, she's got me and it appears she's stuck with me.

I love learning. The problem with learning from life is that life can be a hard mistress - she tends to slap you with the result THEN give the lesson.

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Postby heavymetal » Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:31 pm

europa wrote:Why couldn't I adjust the low stop far enough in?


Re-reading this thread, there is another factor involved as well. The Trek is a touring frame so the angle on the chain is less because it has looonger chain stays.

Kev.
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Postby europa » Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:33 pm

Maybe I should convert her to a fixed gear and be done with it :shock:

Richard
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