N00b questions re changing to compact and back

flyby
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N00b questions re changing to compact and back

Postby flyby » Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:49 am

sorry in advance for the following n00b questions.

I've just bought a 6750 compact chainset in ribble's stocktake sale. Stupidly thought I had the tools to do change this over myself but to be honest I have no idea what I'm doing. The plan is to throw the compact on for hilly rides and then take it back off to preserve its life and give me back my speed for the flats.

I have this http://www.wiggle.co.uk/lifeline-shiman ... cket-tool/
Image

and this http://www.wiggle.co.uk/lifeline-crank-removal-tool/
Image

and a few other tools and allen keys etc.

But I'm beginning to realise I might have the wrong tools and/or need some more.

In particular do I need this?
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-crank-i ... owtech-ii/
Image

I have a copy of Zinn at least.

Beginning to think buying this instead of a 12-27 cassette (my original plan) was a bit ambitious. I've realised I'll also need to run a shorter chain so I'll have to run two chains - one for the compact and one for the regular cranks. Also if I change them over often I really need to be able to do it myself as it would be really expensive through a shop.

Many thanks for any advice.

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ozdavo
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Re: N00b questions re changing to compact and back

Postby ozdavo » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:06 pm

flyby wrote:In particular do I need this?
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-crank-i ... owtech-ii/
Image


You don't NEED one of them, you can use many others tools, such as needle nose pliers (hold open in opposite grooves & turn). See the Shimano Tech sheet, which says the torque on this should be 0.7-1.5Nm (which is FA), that tool just makes it easier & limits potential for slipping and scratching something.

For the chain, get a Wippermann Connex Chain Link, which will make swapping chains a piece of pi..., oops I mean cake :wink:
(You will need a chain breaker to take the chain off to start with and shorten the new chain)
Always looking for new rides & ride partners in SE QLD area

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hannos
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Re: N00b questions re changing to compact and back

Postby hannos » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:10 pm

You might need to adjust the front derailleur to.
2010 BMC SLC01

mitzikatzi
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Re: N00b questions re changing to compact and back

Postby mitzikatzi » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:32 pm

The end of the handle on this tool Image (mine pulls out of the rubber handle)
often has the same function as this toolImage

A compact with 50/11 gives a higher gear than 53/12 so you don't lose any top end.

I am not sure why many riders need 53/11. I can average high 20's (ie after 2 hours riding I have travelled over 50km not just held 25-28 kmh for a short time) on the middle ring (36) of my mountain bike with a down hill top speed in the 60's where I chicken out anyway :shock: YMMV

I would fit the compact and leave it on the bike.
Last edited by mitzikatzi on Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

flyby
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Re: N00b questions re changing to compact and back

Postby flyby » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:37 pm

ozdavo wrote:You don't NEED one of them, you can use many others tools, such as needle nose pliers (hold open in opposite grooves & turn). See the Shimano Tech sheet, which says the torque on this should be 0.7-1.5Nm (which is FA), that tool just makes it easier & limits potential for slipping and scratching something.

For the chain, get a Wippermann Connex Chain Link, which will make swapping chains a piece of pi..., oops I mean cake :wink:
(You will need a chain breaker to take the chain off to start with and shorten the new chain)


Brilliant thanks for that. Are the other tools appropriate to the task? Zinn seems to suggest all I need is some allen keys in terms of the swapping of the modern Shimano crank. I have a chain breaker, and a little experience with it, and I have a set of KMC chain links so I'll have a go at putting them in. In terms of using the same chain, would I need two KMC links - one to break the chain open, and another to attach/detach the extra couple of links I'll need to remove for the compact?

And if I can use needle nose pliers I'll do that carefully as I'm not putting in another whole wiggle order for a $2 part :D

hannos wrote:You might need to adjust the front derailleur to.


As in move it up or down? This should be okay, mine is on a band around the frame I believe so should be difficult.

Thanks for the replies, confidence is coming back.

flyby
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Re: N00b questions re changing to compact and back

Postby flyby » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:41 pm

mitzikatzi wrote:The end of the handle on this tool Image (mine pulls out of the rubber handle)
often has the same function as this toolImage

A compact with 50/11 gives a higher gear than 53/12 so you don't lose any top end.

I am not sure why many riders need 53/11. I can average low 30's on the middle ring of (36) my mountain bike with a down hill top speed in the 60's where I chicken out anyway :shock:

I would fit the compact and leave it on the bike.


It does indeed have the tool inside!!!! How good is this forum!!!?

Big thanks, I will post with my progress when the chainset arrives. The only thing I don't have now (if needed) is some of that radioactive looking shimano grease but should be able to pick some up locally.

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jules21
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Re: N00b questions re changing to compact and back

Postby jules21 » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:07 pm

flyby wrote:The plan is to throw the compact on for hilly rides and then take it back off to preserve its life and give me back my speed for the flats.

glad you solved your problem, but another suggestion - why not just leave the compact on? it won't actually slow you down on the flats.

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ozdavo
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Re: N00b questions re changing to compact and back

Postby ozdavo » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:08 pm

flyby wrote:
hannos wrote:You might need to adjust the front derailleur to.


As in move it up or down? This should be okay, mine is on a band around the frame I believe so should be difficult.


Be aware, if you move the FD, you WILL have to re-tune the gears. May be best to see if it works in the current location with both chainsets... or if that fails, see if you (or your LBS) can find a sweet spot where it does work for both.
GL.
Always looking for new rides & ride partners in SE QLD area

flyby
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Re: N00b questions re changing to compact and back

Postby flyby » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:25 pm

ozdavo wrote:
flyby wrote:
hannos wrote:You might need to adjust the front derailleur to.


As in move it up or down? This should be okay, mine is on a band around the frame I believe so should be difficult.


Be aware, if you move the FD, you WILL have to re-tune the gears. May be best to see if it works in the current location with both chainsets... or if that fails, see if you (or your LBS) can find a sweet spot where it does work for both.
GL.


Cheers, I will look out for this problem, tuning gears isn't my forte.

jules21 wrote:
flyby wrote:The plan is to throw the compact on for hilly rides and then take it back off to preserve its life and give me back my speed for the flats.

glad you solved your problem, but another suggestion - why not just leave the compact on? it won't actually slow you down on the flats.


I would leave it on, but I have a couple of new 12-25 cassettes to use, and also my 39-52 is relatively new (about 15 months old) with only about 3500km on it so if I never used it again it would be a waste! Suppose I could sell it, but might be better value to me to just use it?

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jules21
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Re: N00b questions re changing to compact and back

Postby jules21 » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:28 pm

flyby wrote:I would leave it on, but I have a couple of new 12-25 cassettes to use, and also my 39-52 is relatively new (about 15 months old) with only about 2500km on it so if I never used it again it would be a waste! Suppose I could sell it, but might be better value to me to just use it?

your decision, but i'd get sick of changing crank sets. someone else might confirm - but changing cassettes with different lower cogs and chainsets with different big ring sizes might require changing chain (lengths) as well.

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MichaelB
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Re: N00b questions re changing to compact and back

Postby MichaelB » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:30 pm

flyby wrote:
jules21 wrote:
flyby wrote:The plan is to throw the compact on for hilly rides and then take it back off to preserve its life and give me back my speed for the flats.

glad you solved your problem, but another suggestion - why not just leave the compact on? it won't actually slow you down on the flats.


I would leave it on, but I have a couple of new 12-25 cassettes to use, and also my 39-52 is relatively new (about 15 months old) with only about 3500km on it so if I never used it again it would be a waste! Suppose I could sell it, but might be better value to me to just use it?



I agree with Jules.

How fast do you ride on the flats ? I can do 35 - 50**km/hr on the flats with a 34/50 and 12-27 combo.

** with a tailwind ...

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Re: N00b questions re changing to compact and back

Postby mitzikatzi » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:30 pm

To swap the crankset over you really only need an allen key (5mm ?)and Image. I would have thought if the bottom bracket bearings are newish there shouldn't be any need to change them over.
The front derailleur move requires a few other tools.

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jules21
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Re: N00b questions re changing to compact and back

Postby jules21 » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:32 pm

mitzikatzi wrote:To swap the crankset over you really only need an allen key (5mm ?)and http://s.wiggle.co.uk/images/shimano-tlfc16-ind.jpg. I would have thought if the bottom bracket bearings are newish there shouldn't be any need to change them over.
The front derailleur move requires a few other tools.

he's right :oops:

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sherlock
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Re: N00b questions re changing to compact and back

Postby sherlock » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:40 pm

Seems silly to change cranksets. Better to change cassettes—go plug some numbers into Sheldon Brown's gear calculator and see the difference: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/

flyby
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Re: N00b questions re changing to compact and back

Postby flyby » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:42 pm

mitzikatzi wrote:To swap the crankset over you really only need an allen key (5mm ?)and Image. I would have thought if the bottom bracket bearings are newish there shouldn't be any need to change them over.
The front derailleur move requires a few other tools.


That's great news, but lucky I had the BB tool for that plastic part anyway. I'll read up on the FD move.

I certainly see the point about changing all the time. I will do 40-45 on the flats if I'm having fun / ignoring HR but I'm not sure I do that in 52/12 anyway - I like a higher cadence. The compact seems like an excellent compromise for all round hill/flats etc, it's more just I don't want to waste my current chainset, which I do like a lot.

flyby
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Re: N00b questions re changing to compact and back

Postby flyby » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:43 pm

sherlock wrote:Seems silly to change cranksets. Better to change cassettes—go plug some numbers into Sheldon Brown's gear calculator and see the difference: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/


My decision to change to compact actually came after using Sheldon's calculator. I preferred the ratios I could get from a 50/34 -12-25 than a 52/39 - 12-27.

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Re: N00b questions re changing to compact and back

Postby mitzikatzi » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:49 pm

IMHO
If you can ride at 40 to 45kmh on the flats you are a much stronger cyclist then me. I rode the Adeliade hills on 52/39 and 12/27 combo. I can't average 40 to 45 kmh on the flats.
If you can really ride at 40+ kmh you don't need a compact.
YMMY

flyby
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Re: N00b questions re changing to compact and back

Postby flyby » Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:03 pm

mitzikatzi wrote:IMHO
If you can ride at 40 to 45kmh on the flats you are a much stronger cyclist then me. I rode the Adeliade hills on 52/39 and 12/27 combo. I can't average 40 to 45 kmh on the flats.
If you can really ride at 40+ kmh you don't need a compact.
YMMY


Ignoring HR and the possibility of injury it is sometimes fun to go flatstick for 20 minutes alternating with a mate as part of a longer ride on the flats. This can definitely be done at 40-45.

But the compact is need for a day in the hills with a few thousand vertical metres. I don't want to have to get out of the saddle on a 6-7%, and I want to keep my cadence as high as possible.

Image

vs

Image

With 5 gears under 4 for the compact it should be much easier to fine tune on the hills than with the 27.

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MichaelB
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Re: N00b questions re changing to compact and back

Postby MichaelB » Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:04 pm

flyby wrote: Ignoring HR and the possibility of injury it is sometimes fun to go flatstick for 20 minutes alternating with a mate as part of a longer ride on the flats. This can definitely be done at 40-45.



And you can do that on a compact and 12-25 as well.

So I still don't see the argument re wanting to swap to a different crank for flats. Now, if you want to top 60+ on the flat, different story, but the you wouldn't need the compact for the hills.

flyby
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Re: N00b questions re changing to compact and back

Postby flyby » Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:17 pm

MichaelB wrote:
flyby wrote: Ignoring HR and the possibility of injury it is sometimes fun to go flatstick for 20 minutes alternating with a mate as part of a longer ride on the flats. This can definitely be done at 40-45.



And you can do that on a compact and 12-25 as well.

So I still don't see the argument re wanting to swap to a different crank for flats. Now, if you want to top 60+ on the flat, different story, but the you wouldn't need the compact for the hills.


I definitely don't need it. Just thought I may as well use it when not in the hills. The idea was to prolong the life of my shiny new chainset. Not a good :idea: ! You're right and I will probably just sell the 52/39.

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matth
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Re: N00b questions re changing to compact and back

Postby matth » Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:42 am

Personally I would also just stick with the compact and tweak with your cassette for different rides as required as this is a much simpler job.

flyby
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Re: N00b questions re changing to compact and back

Postby flyby » Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:44 am

matth wrote:Personally I would also just stick with the compact and tweak with your cassette for different rides as required as this is a much simpler job.



Yep I will do that.

Will I need some of this grease?

Image

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matth
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Re: N00b questions re changing to compact and back

Postby matth » Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:20 am

I just use a quality marine bearing grease (I already had a tub) but no reason not to use Shimano if you have to buy some anyway.

flyby
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Re: N00b questions re changing to compact and back

Postby flyby » Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:57 am

matth wrote:I just use a quality marine bearing grease (I already had a tub) but no reason not to use Shimano if you have to buy some anyway.


yep had to buy some so grabbed a pot from pbk for $16 plus some gloves to get me over the $50, not too bad. I've been told to grease my pedals or they'll get stuck so I guess I needed the grease anyway.

Zinn says to "lightly grease the internal bore of each bearing" - but the diagram doesn't point out what this actually means - I suppose I just grease all of the bits that come in contact with each other? And I assume it will be pretty well greased already. I hope so.

I'll be super chuffed if I can do this swap myself.

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Re: N00b questions re changing to compact and back

Postby flyby » Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:20 pm

I just read how much the marine grease is and now don't feel like I got a bargain haha.

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