Wheel Building - How Dumb an Idea?

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Re: Wheel Building - How Dumb an Idea?

Postby ironhanglider » Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:56 pm

JustJames wrote:Some rims describe themselves as 'rim brake', others as 'disc brake' compatible.

For those in the know, how important is the distinction? Is it largely a marketing thing, or is this something that I need to pay attention to in my rim choice?


Modern folk will tell you that a rim brake must be used on a welded rim that has had its braking surface ground back to a nice even flat surface to ensure perfect contact with the brake pads.
Old timers will tell you that rims used to be pinned to a tang that kept the rim laterally (reasonably) true but frequently had a gap of 1mm or so at the join that would close as tension was put onto the spokes. If the join did not line up perfectly it might be filed smooth, otherwise the brake pads would be used to wear the braking surface smooth. Or if the braking surfaces were not parallel, then the pads would wear until they met the rim fully.

In theory rims designed for disc brakes could be made with thinner walls to make them lighter, I suspect that the manufacturers don't bother at the lower end of the market, rather they simply don't waste money machining the braking surfaces to be flat and parallel in order to make them 'rim brake' compatible. If you are not buying 300g rims then I would feel comfortable using them with rim brakes. I am less familiar with painted surfaces but my experience is that anodising will wear off and provide a suitable braking surface within a short space of time. A couple of long/steep descents in the rain with the brakes on will sort that out.

Cheers,

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by BNA » Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:20 pm

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Re: Wheel Building - How Dumb an Idea?

Postby JustJames » Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:20 pm

Musson book bought!

Weird double post going there, Cameron.
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Re: Wheel Building - How Dumb an Idea?

Postby ironhanglider » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:02 pm

JustJames wrote:Musson book bought!

Weird double post going there, Cameron.


Damn electrickery. Should stick to pen and paper. Sorry about that.

I forgot to add that the sidewalls of some 'disc only' rims are a long way from being parallel which will greatly reduce the life of brake pads, as you'd have to file them roughly to shape in order to have a reasonable amount of pad in contact with the rim. Rims that can be sold as either variant (like Velocity) only vary by whether the braking surface has been machined.

A practice wheel is a good idea, although a beaten up old one may have problems such as corrosion between the spoke and nipple and non-round rims, which could mean that you are making a bit of a rod for your own back. You could get some cheap Chinese wheels on ebay (Stars Circle or similar) pull them apart, put your favourite lubricant on the threads and then re-build them. You'd probably make them better than the originals at the same time as learning from them. Don't forget that machine built wheels are not symmetrical in that they feed all the pulling spokes through from one side, meaning that they are heads in on one side and heads out on the other. Most books would suggest that all pulling spokes should either be heads in or out, this means that the all the spoke marks on one of the hub won't line up with the new spokes.

Front wheels are better for learning on than back wheels, as they are usually symmetrical.

Cheers,

Cameron

Cheers,

Cameron
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Re: Wheel Building - How Dumb an Idea?

Postby JustJames » Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:57 am

Next question, re: rim choice.

Am I right in thinking that a rim that is described as a 29er MTB rim is the same size as a 700C road rim?

And on the same topic, sort of, as I am planning on running XC tyres on these wheels, are there any pro's or cons to using road vs MTB rims?
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Re: Wheel Building - How Dumb an Idea?

Postby Reman » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:43 am

They are both nominally the same outer circumference.

The usual difference between 29er and 700c rims is that 29ers are made to accommodate a larger knobbly tire, and the 700c will take a skinny road tire eg. 23c.

See Sheldon's Tire article which has a table at the end to show which size tires fit on various standard rim widths.
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Re: Wheel Building - How Dumb an Idea?

Postby MichaelB » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:26 pm

JustJames wrote:Next question, re: rim choice.

Am I right in thinking that a rim that is described as a 29er MTB rim is the same size as a 700C road rim?

And on the same topic, sort of, as I am planning on running XC tyres on these wheels, are there any pro's or cons to using road vs MTB rims?


Yes.

General difference is that the 29er rims will be wider and heavier (variable).

If you are running wider than 28c tyres, the 29er rims will be better.
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Re: Wheel Building - How Dumb an Idea?

Postby wqlava1 » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:48 pm

+5 on the Musson book. A great start.

Don't bother with many expensive tools - his book tells you enough about most that you's need. I got a secondhand folding stand. it's OK but you can make one cheaply out of the bottom part of a standard cooling fan, and the inverted rear forks from a steel bike, chopped off on the chainstays just forward of the dropouts and on the seat tube 6 inches under the top tube (thanks GC). A dishing gauge is easy enough to simulate by flipping the wheel in the stand till there is no more difference. I find that I get to a good wheel quickest though by using a Park spoke tension gauge - pinging the spokes isn't close enough. Musically though, I've never even pretended to be able to carry a tune in a bucket. They are only $60-70 if you look around. The stick from an earbud puts the nipples in pretty well, after using the earbud to dab oil in each seat around the wheel.
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Re: Wheel Building - How Dumb an Idea?

Postby grantw » Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:27 pm

So where are we sourcing our spokes and nipples from?
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Re: Wheel Building - How Dumb an Idea?

Postby JustJames » Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:35 pm

Most likely DT Swiss Competition DB spokes from CRC, and DT Swiss Pro Lock nipples also from CRC.

But may look elsewhere 'cause I'd like my nipples to be red (fner fner fner), and I'm not sure how good an idea locked nipples is.
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Re: Wheel Building - How Dumb an Idea?

Postby MichaelB » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:39 pm

grantw wrote:So where are we sourcing our spokes and nipples from?


Look up good886 as a seller on ebay.
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Re: Wheel Building - How Dumb an Idea?

Postby JustJames » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:54 pm

Are we allowed to say "nice nipples" on a family friendly forum? :oops: 8)
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Re: Wheel Building - How Dumb an Idea?

Postby wqlava1 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:19 pm

MichaelB wrote:
grantw wrote:So where are we sourcing our spokes and nipples from?


Look up good886 as a seller on ebay.


I looked up that user but not many items currently for sale.

I get my spokes from Bike24 in Germany - 39 Euro pence for each DT Swiss Competition spoke, with nipples provided. They charge 20 Euros for each order up to 600 Euros goods value. Pretty good prices on many things like Brooks saddles, but are much less competitive on clothing for instance.

I use the online calculator called Free Bike tools
http://wheelbuilder.freebiketools.org/
which has served me well.

For those who really don't want to trust their eyes as to the gap when truing a wheel, it's also possible to get a cheap mini magnetic base and a dial indicator for about $45 the two delivered, and use them to measure your wheels' trueness to a few hundredths of a mm - if you have the time.
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Re: Wheel Building - How Dumb an Idea?

Postby grantw » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:24 am

Thanks for those suggestions :)
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Re: Wheel Building - How Dumb an Idea?

Postby Crawf » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:50 am

JustJames wrote:Most likely DT Swiss Competition DB spokes from CRC, and DT Swiss Pro Lock nipples also from CRC.

But may look elsewhere 'cause I'd like my nipples to be red (fner fner fner), and I'm not sure how good an idea locked nipples is.


You'll get nipples with the DT spokes from CRC, just use them unless you want colors.
Never had a need for 'lock' nipples.
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Re: Wheel Building - How Dumb an Idea?

Postby JustJames » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:53 am

Crawf wrote:
You'll get nipples with the DT spokes from CRC, just use them unless you want colors.
Never had a need for 'lock' nipples.


I do want colours, but don't really want my nipples locked. That just sounds way too "Fifty Shades".
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Re: Wheel Building - How Dumb an Idea?

Postby MichaelB » Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:04 am

wqlava1 wrote:
MichaelB wrote:
grantw wrote:So where are we sourcing our spokes and nipples from?


Look up good886 as a seller on ebay.


I looked up that user but not many items currently for sale.

I get my spokes from Bike24 in Germany - 39 Euro pence for each DT Swiss Competition spoke, with nipples provided. They charge 20 Euros for each order up to 600 Euros goods value. Pretty good prices on many things like Brooks saddles, but are much less competitive on clothing for instance.

.....


good886 is the best source for bladed spokes. The equivalent DT Swiss version is double the price before you add the shipping.

He will tailor an order for you and do it even cheaper as an off ebay deal.

Bike24 are indeed good for many things, but can be very uncompetitive on others.
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Re: Wheel Building - How Dumb an Idea?

Postby Reman » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:15 pm

+1 for Bike24 for spokes.
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Re: Wheel Building - How Dumb an Idea?

Postby geoffs » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:20 pm

Good to hear you are having a go at building your own wheels
Roger Mussons book is a good place to start
If you are going to be using disc brakes try velocity's Blunt SL or perhaps Dyads for rim brakes.
Don't bother with alloy nipples as you might need to keep making some adjustments and brass will be more tolerant of this.
Use 222 loctite on the threads and a drop of oil where the nipple contacts the rim
If you are using disc brakes then you need to make sure that the spokes on the disc side have the outside facing forward. For the rear you might find it easiest to build one side at a time as the drive side always has the outside pulling.
Good luck
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Re: Wheel Building - How Dumb an Idea?

Postby JustJames » Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:56 pm

Wheels built!

Went with DT Swiss R520 rims (CRC), Pillar spokes and red brass nipples from BDop.

Very pleased with the results:

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Re: Wheel Building - How Dumb an Idea?

Postby Reman » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:07 pm

Bike is looking nice. Two things, are you short? And you need tubes with longer presta valves :)
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Re: Wheel Building - How Dumb an Idea?

Postby JustJames » Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:00 pm

Reman wrote:Bike is looking nice. Two things, are you short? And you need tubes with longer presta valves :)



Thanks for the compliment, Reman.

First thing:

Short? Not at all.

Standing in damp socks, I tower a commanding 170cm above my surroundings. The frame is a 'small', and I am at the upper end of the recommendation for a small frame. I've always preferred a smaller frame to a larger one as I find it easier to get comfortable, and prefer a more compact cockpit.

Second thing:

Presta valves...indeed. I really don't like the look of two feet of presta valve flopping about, but when I put the tubes in the tyres I realised that I had misunderstimated 8) the depth of the rims' profile.
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Re: Wheel Building - How Dumb an Idea?

Postby DaveOZ » Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:07 pm

Nice work James, we can compare disc brake commuters when we meet next month.
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Re: Wheel Building - How Dumb an Idea?

Postby JustJames » Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:11 pm

Thanks Dave - very much looking forward to all that your post entails!

James
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