Wheel building

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Re: Wheel building

Postby queequeg » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:14 pm

find_bruce wrote:Hmmm, I pulled the miscreant wheel apart last night so I could measure the rim & hub & figure out where I went wrong. Can anyone spot why the dimensions I entered cannot be right for a front wheel ? :oops: :oops: :oops:

Rim 604 mm
Hub PCD left 58 mm right 52 mm
Flange distance left 66 mm right 60 mm
No spokes 32
No intersections 3


Hmmm....I think you may have got those flange distances a bit wrong!
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by BNA » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:45 pm

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Re: Wheel building

Postby find_bruce » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:45 pm

queequeg wrote:
find_bruce wrote:Hmmm, I pulled the miscreant wheel apart last night so I could measure the rim & hub & figure out where I went wrong. Can anyone spot why the dimensions I entered cannot be right for a front wheel ? :oops: :oops: :oops:

Rim 604 mm
Hub PCD left 58 mm right 52 mm
Flange distance left 66 mm right 60 mm
No spokes 32
No intersections 3


Hmmm....I think you may have got those flange distances a bit wrong!

Yep, it would be quite difficult to build a wheel where the flanges were outside the locknuts, hence the blushing when I realised my error. Like many daft mistakes, it was obvious when I thought about it. Oh well, no harm done & hopefully I will learn from it.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby HappyHumber » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:48 pm

queequeg wrote:
find_bruce wrote:Flange distance left 66 mm right 60 mm


Hmmm....I think you may have got those flange distances a bit wrong!


+1
Without having read any of your earlier posts, considering the most common Outer Lock-nut Dimension (OLD) by far for front wheels is 100mm... divide that by two for each side, giving 50mm from the centre line through the rim & hub, and allowing 12-15mm at least for a symmetrical wheel (i.e. non disc) I'd expect this figure to be (in mm) in the high 40s at most.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:25 pm

Bruce, did you pick a disc braked wheel? :lol:

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Re: Wheel building

Postby biker jk » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:17 pm

Mulger bill wrote:Bruce, did you pick a disc braked wheel? :lol:

Shaun


Given the left hub flange has a larger PCD than the right it looks like a disc brake front wheel. That is, it's dished.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby find_bruce » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:51 pm

biker jk wrote:
Mulger bill wrote:Bruce, did you pick a disc braked wheel? :lol:

Shaun


Given the left hub flange has a larger PCD than the right it looks like a disc brake front wheel. That is, it's dished.

Well I guess the gig is up - as you correctly deduced it is a disc hub - a dynamo to be exact. It actually not dished in that the flanges are equidistant from the centre- the drive side has the electrical connector. I still haven't figured out why the disc side has a different diameter flanges.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Crawf » Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:44 pm

As a ref I rebuilt my PD8 wheel last week, with an ERD 565 my spokes were 272 & 273.
Your flange distances should be 25mm & 25mm, shes a very narrow hub.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby ironhanglider » Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:39 pm

find_bruce wrote:
biker jk wrote:
Mulger bill wrote:Bruce, did you pick a disc braked wheel? :lol:

Shaun


Given the left hub flange has a larger PCD than the right it looks like a disc brake front wheel. That is, it's dished.

Well I guess the gig is up - as you correctly deduced it is a disc hub - a dynamo to be exact. It actually not dished in that the flanges are equidistant from the centre- the drive side has the electrical connector. I still haven't figured out why the disc side has a different diameter flanges.


There is a minimum size required to not interfere with the disc mount when you are trying to insert the spokes. However that doesn't prevent them making the other side the same size to ensure the same spoke length. It surely isn't a weight issue since disc-dynohubs are not sold to weight weenies.

Perhaps it is to ensure a different spoke length so that you can use different spokes on either side if you perceive that that is required.

That's my best guess but it's not that good.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby biker jk » Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:03 pm

find_bruce wrote:
biker jk wrote:
Mulger bill wrote:Bruce, did you pick a disc braked wheel? :lol:

Shaun


Given the left hub flange has a larger PCD than the right it looks like a disc brake front wheel. That is, it's dished.

Well I guess the gig is up - as you correctly deduced it is a disc hub - a dynamo to be exact. It actually not dished in that the flanges are equidistant from the centre- the drive side has the electrical connector. I still haven't figured out why the disc side has a different diameter flanges.


I presume the larger left hub flange diameter is to provide a better bracing angle to offset the torsional force applied to the front wheel from the disk brake.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby usernameforme » Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:39 pm

I thought I'd add this resource to this thread (for those who like to experiment with different spoke patterns):

http://www.rockx.net/cfw/cruisinn/spd10.htm
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Re: Wheel building

Postby find_bruce » Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:26 pm

Wow, 2 weekends in a row where I found some time to potter with bike stuff. As well as the usual maintenance, I managed to true the wheel I built last week & replace the hub for another bike I am changing to discs. In a lucky coincidence, the new disc hub had exactly the same dimensions as the hub it replaced, so I could even re-use the spokes - I did seperate the spokes into leading & trailing. The rim was a bit deeper and was a breeze to build up round & true - it really didn't take much to true the wheel. Of course time will tell whether I did a good job. I would post pics, but it looks just like pretty much every other 32 spoke wheel, which is kinda what I was aiming for. Now to buy the right size spokes for the dynamo wheel.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby find_bruce » Sun May 05, 2013 9:03 pm

Sucess!! it seems I am getting the hang of this wheel building trick. On my usual form, that means I will start getting careless :oops:

I have been having issues with breaking spokes on the rear wheel, with an alfine hub & Mavic A719 rim. The flange PCD is quite large (92.6 mm) which means quite an angle at the nipple. The rim has eyelets which force the nipple to be perpendicular. The LBS has rebuilt the wheel twice under warranty, I think using DT Swiss champion spokes, but it kept breaking spokes, each time at the point where the thread starts. This was part of what prompted me to learn to build wheels myself. Having given up on the LBS, I have been replacing broken spokes with Sapim race double butted - my thinking being that the butting will help the spoke bend slightly without as much stress where it enters the nipple. The replacements seems to be holding up well so I stripped the wheel & rebuilt it with the sapim spokes. Built up easily & looks good so we will see how it lasts.

I also finished building the dynamo wheel. I ran into a few issues (1) the shimano brake disc came with T25 screws. 6 bolts later & the torx driver was a twisted wreck, so time to hunt for a better quality tool. (2) when installed, the spokes were hitting the caliper and (3) when looking for the cause of the caliper strike I noticed the rim was not centred. Not sure whether it wasn't straight in the stand or I stuffed up measuring but it was about 2.5 mm towards the disc.

I re-centred the wheel & moved the caliper 1 mm on the mounting which got me just enough clearance. I am still trying to get my head around why. I will post some pics later in the week, just to make sure I haven't made some stupid mistake in lacing the hubs
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Re: Wheel building

Postby biker jk » Sun May 05, 2013 9:28 pm

find_bruce wrote:Sucess!! it seems I am getting the hang of this wheel building trick. On my usual form, that means I will start getting careless :oops:

I have been having issues with breaking spokes on the rear wheel, with an alfine hub & Mavic A719 rim. The flange PCD is quite large (92.6 mm) which means quite an angle at the nipple. The rim has eyelets which force the nipple to be perpendicular. The LBS has rebuilt the wheel twice under warranty, I think using DT Swiss champion spokes, but it kept breaking spokes, each time at the point where the thread starts. This was part of what prompted me to learn to build wheels myself. Having given up on the LBS, I have been replacing broken spokes with Sapim race double butted - my thinking being that the butting will help the spoke bend slightly without as much stress where it enters the nipple. The replacements seems to be holding up well so I stripped the wheel & rebuilt it with the sapim spokes. Built up easily & looks good so we will see how it lasts.

I also finished building the dynamo wheel. I ran into a few issues (1) the shimano brake disc came with T25 screws. 6 bolts later & the torx driver was a twisted wreck, so time to hunt for a better quality tool. (2) when installed, the spokes were hitting the caliper and (3) when looking for the cause of the caliper strike I noticed the rim was not centred. Not sure whether it wasn't straight in the stand or I stuffed up measuring but it was about 2.5 mm towards the disc.

I re-centred the wheel & moved the caliper 1 mm on the mounting which got me just enough clearance. I am still trying to get my head around why. I will post some pics later in the week, just to make sure I haven't made some stupid mistake in lacing the hubs


Have you considered Sapim Polyax nipples? They allow for a better line from spoke to nipple.

http://www.sapim.be/nipples/brass/polyax
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Re: Wheel building

Postby find_bruce » Sun May 05, 2013 10:15 pm

biker jk wrote:Have you considered Sapim Polyax nipples? They allow for a better line from spoke to nipple.

http://www.sapim.be/nipples/brass/polyax

Consider them, I hadn't even heard of them until your post. I just went scurrying out to the garage to see what nipples came with the sapim race spokes & we have a winner - at least one of the reasons why the sapim race DB spokes look like they have a better angle at the nipple is because they DO have a better angle at the nipple - they shipped standard from Bike24 with brass polyax nipples.

Thanks biker jk, I can go to bed knowing I have learnt something today
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Re: Wheel building

Postby stevecassidy » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:55 pm

Hi all,
a question to the wheelbuilders - where do you source parts? Are there any local suppliers of rims?

I was rear-ended last week and so have a Shimano RS80 wheel minus the hub. I'll get some new wheels but I'm thinking that I might try to re-build the wheel to keep as a spare/training wheel. I've built a few wheels (although never a dished rear wheel) so feel up to the task. However I can't see anywhere locally I could find a suitable 20 hole rim.

Browsing some of the links in this thread I found these:

http://www.bikehubstore.com/KinlinXR270-p/xr270.htm

which look suitable. Are there any local suppliers of a similar rim or is somewhere like BHS the place to go?

Thanks,

Steve
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Re: Wheel building

Postby biker jk » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:12 pm

stevecassidy wrote:Hi all,
a question to the wheelbuilders - where do you source parts? Are there any local suppliers of rims?

I was rear-ended last week and so have a Shimano RS80 wheel minus the hub. I'll get some new wheels but I'm thinking that I might try to re-build the wheel to keep as a spare/training wheel. I've built a few wheels (although never a dished rear wheel) so feel up to the task. However I can't see anywhere locally I could find a suitable 20 hole rim.

Browsing some of the links in this thread I found these:

http://www.bikehubstore.com/KinlinXR270-p/xr270.htm

which look suitable. Are there any local suppliers of a similar rim or is somewhere like BHS the place to go?

Thanks,

Steve


I source my parts from BHS. They have good prices on Kinlin rims. However, you will pay a fair bit for postage (it cost me US$55 for two rims, hubs and spokes). I have a wheelset with the Kinlin XR-270 rims but it's 24r spokes. It's a stiff rims and only 445g but I don't know what you weigh and whether 20r spokes will be enough for you. You will need to use straight pull spokes with the RS80 hubs. Make sure you measure the hub dimensions correctly before plugging into a spoke length calculator.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby stevecassidy » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:39 pm

Thanks biker, I'm 80kg and have been riding the RS80s for a couple of years with no issues. I'm guessing that replacing the rim with a similar profile one would give me a reasonable wheel.

I'll take a look at the postage rates etc. and see if it makes sense. I might pick up another rim to replace the one on my Aksium rear wheel - I just noticed when swapping it in for the bent wheel that the brake track is pretty badly worn. The two together might make it worth getting a package sent over.

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Re: Wheel building

Postby Velo13 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:58 am

Crawf wrote:ftssjk, consider the H+ Son Archetype, definitely a better quality rim all round, just bit more $.


IMO, Hplusson make the finest quality AL rims on the market.

There are lighter, and a few with some more bells and whistles, but Hplusson are very reliable, straight and round, and finished beautifully. Weights are competitive, and (for the weight) they seem to be far stiffer than the competition.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Velo13 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:12 am

Dan wrote:Tensionometer is good idea, but as long as you start with a round rim, and tighten equally and systematically, you should end up with an equally tensioned wheel. If you do this, the spokes should have the same relative tension - a tensionometer will confirm this, as well as telling you what the actual tension is (good for build where its necessary to know this, but with a standard build its kind of irrelevant, in my opinion).


Dan, IMHO there is no such thing as a "round" AL rim* - there are always inconsistencies in extrusion, metal density, and just the quality of the rim roll(ing) procedure. As a result, getting a rim evenly tensioned by tightening "equally and systematically" is not going to result in even enough tension. It is hard to gauge that tightening process accurately, and then you have the rim inconsistencies I have mentioned.

I lace a wheel and get it straight, round and up to rideable tension in 25-30mins. But at that point all the hard work starts – getting the tensions as even as possible. This takes that amount of time again, sometimes more.

I am a complete proponent of using a tensiometer to get tensions uniform. Without (and using the "pluck the spokes" method) I can get tensions to about +/- 15%) This is probably good enough for a lot of builders, and should produce a reasonably reliable wheel.

I target 5% tension variation on all my builds. Only possible with an accurate tensiometer.

*or "flat" or "straight" AL rim either. Carbon rims are another story (and challenge) - they can be straight and round to tight tolerances, but they still suffer a bit from inconsistencies in the carbon layups.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Velo13 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:26 am

stevecassidy wrote:Hi all,
a question to the wheelbuilders - where do you source parts? Are there any local suppliers of rims?

I was rear-ended last week and so have a Shimano RS80 wheel minus the hub. I'll get some new wheels but I'm thinking that I might try to re-build the wheel to keep as a spare/training wheel. I've built a few wheels (although never a dished rear wheel) so feel up to the task. However I can't see anywhere locally I could find a suitable 20 hole rim.

Browsing some of the links in this thread I found these:

http://www.bikehubstore.com/KinlinXR270-p/xr270.htm

which look suitable. Are there any local suppliers of a similar rim or is somewhere like BHS the place to go?

Thanks,

Steve


Sounds like you need a 20h rear rim, around 23mm deep.

Your options are limited there:

    1. XR-200 will be too light at 20h (even a 28h rear is very light on this rim)
    2. Velocity A23 would probably be quite close, but I think they are too light as well
    3. XR-270 will be too deep at 27mm (unless you want to roll longer threads on the spokes, or get new ones) - might also be a bit light
    4. H+Sons Archetype will be too deep at 26mm (unless you want to roll longer threads on the spokes, or get new ones)
    5. XR-300 will be too deep at 30mm (unless you want to get new spokes)

I can source any of the above for you, roll threads on spokes, and build if need be.

I would recommend the H+Sons Archetye - reasonable weight, close to the original rim depth, extremely stiff, beautiful finishes.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby elStado » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:24 am

Hi crew

Are there any good hobby wheel builders in/near South Perth?

Someone crashed into the back of me last year and cracked two of my spokes and put my wheel out of true.

I replaced the spokes myself and got the wheel 98% true, as best I could without a stand, but the wheel was/is slightly out of round still. Also a year later the wheel is a bit more out of true again. I figure it probably needs some TLC by someone with better tools, equipment and knowledge that I do.

It's a heavy duty touring bike, so the wheels are pretty tough. If anyone is interested to see if they can get the spoke tension sorted out and the wheel true & round again I would really appreciate it. I'd also like to watch and take notes as well, so if you have an hour free over the weekend to look at it let me know via PM.

Cheers
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Re: Wheel building

Postby biker jk » Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:39 am

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Re: Wheel building

Postby jules21 » Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:46 am

partly rebuilt my rear Reynolds Solitude yesterday. the non-drive side spokes (with lower tension) kept coming loose. bought some linseed oil, loosened all the non-drive spokes, dipped the threads in the oil and tensioned them back up. i used the pluck method - listening for the frequency. it's pretty rough i know, but the wheels are pretty straight. hopefully the spokes stop unwinding..
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Re: Wheel building

Postby biker jk » Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:04 am

jules21 wrote:partly rebuilt my rear Reynolds Solitude yesterday. the non-drive side spokes (with lower tension) kept coming loose. bought some linseed oil, loosened all the non-drive spokes, dipped the threads in the oil and tensioned them back up. i used the pluck method - listening for the frequency. it's pretty rough i know, but the wheels are pretty straight. hopefully the spokes stop unwinding..


24 rear spokes, radially laced non-drive side? Thin DT Revolution spokes? Watch out for spoke wind up with those thin spokes. If you haven't taken the twist out then they will unwind again, even with linseed oil.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby jules21 » Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:09 am

biker jk wrote:24 rear spokes, radially laced non-drive side? Thin DT Revolution spokes? Watch out for spoke wind up with those thin spokes. If you haven't taken the twist out then they will unwind again, even with linseed oil.

when i went for a test ride afterwards, i could hear them unwinding - that crackling sound as the spoke tension pulls on the thread interface with the nipple.

do you know how i should take the twist out?
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