Wheel building

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barefoot
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Re: Wheel building

Postby barefoot » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:34 pm

Velo13 wrote:If you start rounding nipples, it can be because of many factors, but it's not a good indicator that you are "at the right tension".

The "compression buckling" technique is something that Musson and Brandt discuss, but I don't subscribe. With modern lightweight rims and low spoke counts...


Ah, see, that's where you lose me.

I have a pair of low spoke count wheels. By which I mean 28 spokes :mrgreen: . They were stock on my last MTB (DT Swiss X1900 I think is the model number... solid non-exotic 26er factory wheels on a ~XT built bike) [1].

Pretty much everything I build is 32 spoke, save for a few 36 spoke MTB and tandem wheels I've done along the way. And a 40 spoke tandem wheel. Mostly because 32hole bits are easiest to find.

With lots of spokes like that... and especially with a lightweight 700c rim... compression buckling really is the limit of tension :-D

Really though, I've only done a dozen... maybe a couple of dozen... wheels, with no immediate plan to build any more. I'm sure I will build more, as needed, but I'm not intending to invest heavily - or even lightly - in truing stands and tension meters.

By the way - those 650B rims I got from you - they've proving to be a rather entertaining swap-in wheelset for my 700c disc road bike. 650x40B slicks are great for road-gravel-firetrail-whatever exploration rides. They aren't used often, unfortunately, but they don't get an easy time when they do come out to play :-D

tim





[1] I folded the front wheel on about the second ride, before I got around to fiddling with the wheel build... which I really didn't think I'd have to do on a brand name wheel. Rebuilt with a random cheap WTB rim of matching spoke count that had about the same ERD... built as tight as I could get it, and stress-relieved properly, and it's survived plenty more abuse than the original build did. Of course, I tightened and relieved the rear wheel while I was at it, and it's never given me any grief whatsoever

ianganderton
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Re: Wheel building

Postby ianganderton » Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:12 pm

So I've just built my first wheel!

Thanks to everyone here who has commented on my daft questions and all that posted before

It's the rear wheel of my Focus Planet that I was having lots of snapping spokes problems

OEM rim with Alfine disc hub re-laced 3 cross with black DT Swiss revolution spokes and brass nipples (silver) brought from CRC

It's not been particularly quick. Maybe 4hrs total including disassembly

Things I've learnt today

Not having a nipple driver is a pain in the arse

Lacing is quite faffy and there is A LOT to remember
-I forgot to grease the spoke threads and had to start again (only the first half dozen or so spokes in though)

- forgot to pass the cross spokes under the 3rd cross and had to re do about 4 spokes when I realised

-my BBB spoke key is uncomfortable and I now have a sore thumb

I brought the Park Tool spoke tension meter TM-1 at the same time a the spokes and this was invaluable in giving me confidence when finishing off the wheel getting tension about right and even

Now I need to put the tyre on and take it for a spin [emoji41]

I'm a bit worried about spoke wind up with the thin (1.5mm) revolution spokes so will keep a very close eye on it for a while. I've tried to be very thorough with stress relieving at every step of tensioning the wheel so hopefully it will be fine

Started riding bikes seriously in 1989 and this is the first time I've summoned up the courage to dive in and build my own wheel. I'm a bit embarrassed about this as I do most of my own bike fettling. It's just wheels have felt like a dark magic.

Hopefully this one does ok. I have all the bits to rebuild my mountain bike wheels as the current 26 inch mavic 719 and 819 rims are in rag order. I have Velocity Blunt 35's and more DT revolutions to build up on the hope hubs currently on the bike. (Looking forward to seeing what the modern wide rims do to my tyre profile after running id 19mm for sooo many years)

Once again thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread and given me the get up and go to finally dive into building a wheel
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Re: Wheel building

Postby ianganderton » Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:47 pm

Something else I learnt that I just remembered

- I'm only going to use silver spokes when I build wheels for a while. It's just feels like I was scratching the black ones too much
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ianganderton
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Re: Wheel building

Postby ianganderton » Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:06 pm

So that's the other 2 wheels built up. Definitely got better as I did more wheels particularly when it came to trueing.

I will ride them and then go over them to see how they fair. I'll then go through the whole fleet (12 wheels total) and service them based on my new found knowledge.

One interesting point. Over the past few weeks building up to these wheels I've read countless Internet pages of information on the subject. Lots talk about spoke tension meters and most of the people who publish the info say they don't need them

Well I'm damn glad I brought my park tool tension meter. I've found it similar to use as a torque wrench. I've found it completely invaluable. It's given me enormous confidence in the end builds and taken the guess work out of tensioning, something I was worried about.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby coffeeandwine » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:55 pm

ianganderton wrote:So that's the other 2 wheels built up. Definitely got better as I did more wheels particularly when it came to trueing.

[snip]

One interesting point. Over the past few weeks building up to these wheels I've read countless Internet pages of information on the subject. Lots talk about spoke tension meters and most of the people who publish the info say they don't need them


Nice work Ian, I have only built a couple but it is a very satisfying feeling! Have you come across Roger Musson's book yet, lots of good stuff there.


ianganderton wrote:Well I'm damn glad I brought my park tool tension meter. I've found it similar to use as a torque wrench. I've found it completely invaluable. It's given me enormous confidence in the end builds and taken the guess work out of tensioning, something I was worried about.


I get a lot of value out of my tension meter as well, a nice little web based App is thePark Tool's App mapping tensions.

The best bit is the increased understanding I now have about wheels (could still improve a lot!), and the confidence to tackle something like a broken spoke, and how to adjust things on the road so you can get home in one piece (provided I remember to pack the spoke key :oops: ). Good luck and have fun!
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coffeeandwine
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Re: Wheel building

Postby coffeeandwine » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:15 pm

Out for a ride with Mrs CoffeeandWine on the weekend and she did a spoke (Rear wheel DS).

Dropped in to the LBS to pick up a replacement spoke today, not straight forward as it was a straight-pull spoke 288mm. Found one at the second shop. Fitted it OK at home and thought I would check tensions and true the wheel...(tensions quite variable and NDS very low).

I found that some spokes and nipples were bound fast to one another and could not be tightened or loosened; turning the nipple just rotated the spoke (not simply wind up-as a straight pull spoke it didn't have one end anchored-so no change in tension). I noticed that the wheelbuilder had used hexagonal nipples (on the right, compared to the more common variety on the left), and would that be loctite on the old nipple?

Image

I thought I could solve my problem with a hexagonal nipple driver/spoke key - but thinking about it, won't make any difference. I can turn the nipple with my standard 'spoke key' - that isn't the issue.

Any ideas on how to free up the spoke from the nipple and adjust spoke tension without the straight pull spoke spinning?


Thanks in advance!
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:26 pm

Cripes, that looks like epoxy to me. :?
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Re: Wheel building

Postby roader » Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:51 am

I have built a set of wheels with 3-cross pattern. I forgot to run the spoke under the other spoke on the 3rd cross. Would you suggest me to re-do the wheels or I shouldn't worry about it as for example radial lacing only has straight running spokes too?

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hugh stone
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Re: Wheel building

Postby hugh stone » Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:36 am

That web app looks interesting.

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Re: Wheel building

Postby RonK » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:02 am

Mulger bill wrote:Cripes, that looks like epoxy to me. :?
Nah - linseed oil.
Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...

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Re: Wheel building

Postby barefoot » Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:34 am

roader wrote:I have built a set of wheels with 3-cross pattern. I forgot to run the spoke under the other spoke on the 3rd cross. Would you suggest me to re-do the wheels or I shouldn't worry about it as for example radial lacing only has straight running spokes too?


I did the same thing on my first wheel.

It survived just fine. Didn't give it too much of a hard time, but it stayed straight and didn't break.

Proper cross-pattern would be better, but probably not worth completely rebuilding the wheel IMO.

tim

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Wheel building

Postby RonK » Fri Jan 29, 2016 10:05 am

roader wrote:I have built a set of wheels with 3-cross pattern. I forgot to run the spoke under the other spoke on the 3rd cross. Would you suggest me to re-do the wheels or I shouldn't worry about it as for example radial lacing only has straight running spokes too?

I did that in my first build too. But with only two-cross lacing the wheel felt so flimsy there was no way I could leave that way.
Even laced three-cross I don't think I'd be happy with it.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby roader » Sat Jan 30, 2016 1:59 am

Thanks RonK and barefoot.

It doesn't feel flimsy at all and I've ridden on it for about a week already, so I think I might leave it. Unless someone else has had a bad experience?

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Re: Wheel building

Postby human909 » Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:19 pm

roader wrote:It doesn't feel flimsy at all and I've ridden on it for about a week already, so I think I might leave it. Unless someone else has had a bad experience?

The over-under crosses themselves don't affect a wheels stiffness. Though get it wrong and you could have spoke slap noise under some circumstances.

2 cross should actually be stiffer than 3 cross except under torsion.

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Re: Wheel building

Postby roader » Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:16 am

human909 wrote:
roader wrote:It doesn't feel flimsy at all and I've ridden on it for about a week already, so I think I might leave it. Unless someone else has had a bad experience?

The over-under crosses themselves don't affect a wheels stiffness. Though get it wrong and you could have spoke slap noise under some circumstances.

2 cross should actually be stiffer than 3 cross except under torsion.


Phew. Cool. Then I'll leave it. There's a bit of clearance between the spokes so it won't make any noise. Thanks!

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Re: Wheel building

Postby Duck! » Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:16 am

The main problem with not interlacing the spokes is that you may be more prone to getting derailleur interference in low gear.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Wheel building

Postby human909 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:46 pm

roader wrote:Phew. Cool. Then I'll leave it. There's a bit of clearance between the spokes so it won't make any noise. Thanks!

No problems. But check the derailleur interference that Duck mentioned, he has a fair bit of experience.

(I've only built one wheel in my life. But so far it is strong and still as true as the day it was built!)

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Re: Wheel building

Postby roader » Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:40 am

Duck! wrote:The main problem with not interlacing the spokes is that you may be more prone to getting derailleur interference in low gear.


Luckily I'm clear there! Thanks for noting. I don't use the lowest gear too often so it wouldn't have been an extremely unpleasant surprise!

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Re: Wheel building

Postby find_bruce » Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:34 pm

Got my dynamo hub back from its bearing replacement & started to build it up. As I was bringing the spokes up to tension I noticed daylight either side of the nipple - yep cracked rim. Closer inspection revealed cracks around 12 of the 32 spoke holes. Cheap poc had only done about 20,000km

Fortunately I had another rim with the same ERD & was able to rebuild the wheel.

Is there any use for a busted rim or is it off to the recycling bin ?

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Re: Wheel building

Postby Baalzamon » Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:39 pm

find_bruce wrote:Got my dynamo hub back from its bearing replacement & started to build it up. As I was bringing the spokes up to tension I noticed daylight either side of the nipple - yep cracked rim. Closer inspection revealed cracks around 12 of the 32 spoke holes. Cheap poc had only done about 20,000km

Fortunately I had another rim with the same ERD & was able to rebuild the wheel.

Is there any use for a busted rim or is it off to the recycling bin ?


Start of a chandelier :)
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Bunged Knee » Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:02 pm

find_bruce wrote:Got my dynamo hub back from its bearing replacement & started to build it up. As I was bringing the spokes up to tension I noticed daylight either side of the nipple - yep cracked rim. Closer inspection revealed cracks around 12 of the 32 spoke holes. Cheap poc had only done about 20,000km

Fortunately I had another rim with the same ERD & was able to rebuild the wheel.

Is there any use for a busted rim or is it off to the recycling bin ?


Google to find ideas for re-use of busted rims or other bicycle items. http://www.architectureartdesigns.com/25-incredible-diy-repurposed-bike-wheels/

Make a clock or table or pot holders.

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Re: Wheel building

Postby Duck! » Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:37 am

Cut it into bits & make coathangers.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Wheel building

Postby geoff_tewierik » Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:28 pm

Key rings/bottle openers dependant on the rim profile.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby ianganderton » Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:15 am

Some advice please. I'm trying to work out how even the apple tension should be on my various bikes

I'm using a Park TM-1 tension meter and getting quite wife readings

Here is the chart they give

Image

Units are in Kgf

So for instance on a 1.8mm spoke a reading of 18 on the tool = 77Kgf spoke tension

I'm guessing there will be a level if error in the tool

So based on that what spoke tension would you be aiming for and how consistent on the gauge?
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Wheel building

Postby QuangVuong » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:04 am

The Park gauge will never give you exact tension values. It'll give you an approximate value, and all you need to do is keep that approx value constant(say within 10%) throughout your spokes.

Spoke tension itself is a very in depth subject. Just don't pass rim specs as you may pull spokes through the rim, and even break spokes.

I can't help you on spoke tension, as I don't know enough about it. And it is dependent on your application of the wheels.
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