Wheel building
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Re: Wheel building
Postby ianganderton » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:56 am
I'm currently looking at a 650b mountain bike wheel (giant xc-2 rim, giant disc hubs and butted spokes (1.8mm))
I have 26" mountain bike wheels and 700c road wheels to check through too
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Re: Wheel building
Postby ianganderton » Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:25 pm
So thats acceptable. What's good and what's realistcally bestRelative tension is the tension of a spoke in comparison to the tension of one or more other spokes. A wheel with spokes that are within plus or minus 20% of the wheel’s average spoke tension is generally considered to have acceptable relative tension.
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Re: Wheel building
Postby ianganderton » Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:31 pm
It also has a table of manufacturer recommended spoke tensions but what to do where specs aren't available? Hmmmmm
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Re: Wheel building
Postby Duck! » Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:32 pm
As pointed out, the scale readings are at best an approximation of actual tension due to the wide range of spoke types around. Don't get too hung up on whether an indicated 100 kgf is exactly 100 kgf or a bit off, it's close enough. Even readings around each side of the wheel are more critical. I generally build alloy rims to 100kgf, and carbon to 120 kgf. These tensions are high enough give a good stiff wheel, but not right up to the maximum the rims will take, except the lightest aluminium rims, where I'll drop back to about 90.
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Re: Wheel building
Postby ianganderton » Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:37 pm
I'm very conscious of the way I release the handle to help.with consistency
I've just found this very useful web based app http://www.parktool.com/wta/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I can choose my level of accuracy with 20% as a minimum. I'd like to try to see if I can get 10% or better with practice
I'll see how 100 Kgf feels.
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Wheel building
Postby ianganderton » Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:47 am
http://www.williamscycling.com/assets/i ... Lacing.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It won't conclude in anything you probably didn't know already but it's interesting none the less
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Re: Wheel building
Postby human909 » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:40 am
Consistency of tension is far and away a tertiary concern. What the primary concerns is having enough tension along with appropriate trueness and roundnesss.ianganderton wrote:So thats acceptable. What's good and what's realistcally best
Consistency of tension is not a goal in of itself. Which is why +-20% is acceptable. (Though unless your rim is not round or has other issues, you should be able to achieve close to consistent tension while also achieving the primary goals.)
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Re: Wheel building
Postby find_bruce » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:12 am
I suspect he has never built or attempted to build a 4x lacing with 32 spokes - IIRC the spoke will get interference from the head of the next spoke.4x lacing should be used with 32 spokes or greater.
What is easily forgotten is the trigonometry underlying the cross pattern The spoke angle at hub and rim will be identical in a 4x 40 spoke wheel as a 2x 20 spoke wheel - try this mental experiment, you lace a 40 spoke wheel 4x, remove every second spoke & you have a 20 spoke 2x & the length or angles of the spokes haven't changed.
Usual recommendation is 36, 32 or 28 laced 3x. As duck says, 28 is a crossover point as you can also lace 28 2x.
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Re: Wheel building
Postby ianganderton » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:31 am
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Re: Wheel building
Postby Duck! » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:55 pm
Gerd Schraner suggests that 4x lacing should only be used on hubs with a flange PCD of 70mm or greater; the bigger flanges space the holes further apart & allow the spokes to seat properly.find_bruce wrote:Interesting article. What he actually tested comes as no surprise. was however surprised to see this recommendation in the conclusionI suspect he has never built or attempted to build a 4x lacing with 32 spokes - IIRC the spoke will get interference from the head of the next spoke.4x lacing should be used with 32 spokes or greater.
What is easily forgotten is the trigonometry underlying the cross pattern The spoke angle at hub and rim will be identical in a 4x 40 spoke wheel as a 2x 20 spoke wheel - try this mental experiment, you lace a 40 spoke wheel 4x, remove every second spoke & you have a 20 spoke 2x & the length or angles of the spokes haven't changed.
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Re: Wheel building
Postby hedgehog » Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:13 pm
i bought a set of 36h hubs.the front wheel has an alloy alesa rim and steel spokes,the rear a steel ukai rim and steel spokes both 4x.
weight and tire are not a problem for me.
i purposely misaligned the wheels to the frame.the front wheel is 3mm more to the left and rear wheel is 3mm more to the right.
are there any negative aspects to this set up?
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Re: Wheel building
Postby ianganderton » Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:35 pm
Out of interest why did you set the wheels up off centre?
And why 4x and not the 3x 'norm'?
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Re: Wheel building
Postby hedgehog » Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:49 pm
wheels of centre to increase the spoke angle on the rear drive side
and increase the spoke angle on the front disk side
4x was not a choice i used the original old spokes
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Re: Wheel building
Postby hedgehog » Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:24 pm
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Re: Wheel building
Postby eeksll » Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:54 pm
does it work that way? I would have thought same offset to the same side.hedgehog wrote:the front wheel is 3mm more to the (right) and the rear wheel 3mm more to the (left).correction
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Re: Wheel building
Postby hugh stone » Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:02 am
Nice article - I was particularly interested in the results for the radial drive side pattern which is used by Zipp. The larger change in tensions might explain some of the problems they've had with hub flange failures.ianganderton wrote:Here is an interesting article showing the results of computer modelling testing various lacing patterns inc 3x, 2x, radial/3x and 3x/ radial
http://www.williamscycling.com/assets/i ... Lacing.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It won't conclude in anything you probably didn't know already but it's interesting none the less
Also relieved to see 3x being a winner as I'm building some wheels with this pattern at the moment.
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Re: Wheel building
Postby ianganderton » Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:33 am
The problem is now I know it's not an ideal set up it will bug the hell out of me [emoji19]
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Re: Wheel building
Postby hugh stone » Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:03 pm
Radial non-drive side is pretty common - I wouldn't worry about it.ianganderton wrote:My wife's Specialized Alias has a radial/3x pattern too but the drive side is 3x. She is light and doesn't really honk when she's climbing so doesn't put the wheel under lots of stress so shouldn't cause problems so no need to change it but I will keep a watchful eye on it now.
The problem is now I know it's not an ideal set up it will bug the hell out of me [emoji19]
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Re: Wheel building
Postby Duck! » Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:16 pm
His idea is reducing wheel dish, hence the rear off to the left (away from cassette) and front off to the right (away from brake disc). In theory, cornering would be whoopsed due to the wheels not tracking centrally, and indeed the tracking axis between the tyres' contact points being at an angle to the frame, but in reality it's probably too subtle to notice.eeksll wrote:does it work that way? I would have thought same offset to the same side.hedgehog wrote:the front wheel is 3mm more to the (right) and the rear wheel 3mm more to the (left).correction
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Re: Wheel building
Postby hedgehog » Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:37 pm
but the hubs are made out of alluminium not steel.
does it work that way? im finding the ride better than before,more solid,but wheels are still under observation
mostly in the spoke elbows.
thanks duck,
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Re: Wheel building
Postby ianganderton » Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:20 pm
I seem to have got the spoke length wrong (too long) and I'm not sure why
I'm building a SP PD-8 into a SR300 rim
The ERD that I've previously calculated and used is 583mm
Here is the DT spoke calculation
I'm guessing I've got the wrong hub dimensions.
Does anyone have PD-8 specs they have successfully used?
Can anyone spot something else it is
Thanks
Ian
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Re: Wheel building
Postby Duck! » Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:53 pm
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Re: Wheel building
Postby ianganderton » Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:54 pm
Ok. Cool. I'll look into itDuck! wrote:Your flange distances are out by a considerable margin. Unless you're building a fatbike wheel.
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Re: Wheel building
Postby ianganderton » Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:13 pm
Ok. So I can't find the right info for the DT Swiss calculator and it's difficult to measure from the centreDuck! wrote:Your flange distances are out by a considerable margin. Unless you're building a fatbike wheel.
But it's even both sides (AT) 25mm to the flange as per this image
The flange thickness is 2mm
So from the centre of the hub to the centre of the flange = 25mm - 1mm = 24mm each side
282mm spokes.
Does this look correct?
Thanks
Ian
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Re: Wheel building
Postby Duck! » Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:57 pm
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