Wheel building

User avatar
Thoglette
Posts: 4300
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:01 pm

Re: Wheel building

Postby Thoglette » Sat Jun 04, 2016 11:40 am

find_bruce wrote:If you are making your own tensiometer why wouldn't you copy the jobst brandt design?


Some information here (wheelpro.co.uk)
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

Lurkin
Posts: 254
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:16 pm

Re: Wheel building

Postby Lurkin » Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:16 pm

Not as a tensiometer, but as an indicator for where its out on the truing stand. Like these: http://www.parktool.com/product/dial-in ... nds-ts-2di

I've seen others on the internet which don't actually attach to the truing stand, rather have magnetic bases etc to stand alone with. Just wondering if anyones used one of these cheaper equivalents rather than the Park tool version.

User avatar
QuangVuong
Posts: 1775
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:04 pm
Location: Villawood, Sydney
Contact:

Re: Wheel building

Postby QuangVuong » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:44 am

Thoglette wrote:
find_bruce wrote:If you are making your own tensiometer why wouldn't you copy the jobst brandt design?


Some information here (wheelpro.co.uk)

Its only been a thought. Actual planning starts in a couple weeks time when I've some time.

Lurkin wrote:Not as a tensiometer, but as an indicator for where its out on the truing stand. Like these: http://www.parktool.com/product/dial-in ... nds-ts-2di

I've seen others on the internet which don't actually attach to the truing stand, rather have magnetic bases etc to stand alone with. Just wondering if anyones used one of these cheaper equivalents rather than the Park tool version.

I have a late 1930s truing stand. It works as a basic truing stand. But I will also be modifying it to take dual dial gauges for lateral and axial truing.

Looking at the Park gauges, all I see are 2 standard dial gauges with a ±0 scale, and bearings on the tips, along with the mounting system. I certainly wouldn't pay the $200 for it. I'll see how I go with my home made version.
VillaVelo, by the Vuong brothers

Blog: https://villaveloframes.wordpress.com/
FB & IG: @villaveloframes

Lurkin
Posts: 254
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:16 pm

Re: Wheel building

Postby Lurkin » Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:36 pm

That's exactly the idea, if I can work out which ones to buy.

ianganderton
Posts: 286
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: Eastern Suburbs, Sydney

Re: Wheel building

Postby ianganderton » Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:10 pm

I've been reading about asymmetric rims today. This article covers a lot of the key points

http://m.pinkbike.com/u/theminsta/blog/ ... -rims.html

Basically an asymmetric rim means you have even spoke tension which you will all know means a stronger and more reliable

So I've always used hope hubs (Mtb) and their flanges are different diameters to allow the use of same length spokes but spoke tension is normal as in its asymmetric.

What are your thoughts folks?

I haven't built one yet so haven't answered a lot of the questions I have. First one would be do the spoke calculators cope with the offset?

I need to get my head round the hub options
NOT sent from tapatalk

User avatar
Duck!
Expert
Posts: 7077
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 8:21 pm
Location: On The Tools

Re: Wheel building

Postby Duck! » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:05 pm

I haven't yet noticed any calculators that deal with off-centre rims, they all work on the assumption the spoke bed is centred. My thought is that you could measure the offset of the rim, and then trick the calculator into allowing for it by adjusting your flange measurements that distance in the opposite direction.

E.g. if the spoke bed in the rim is 4mm off to the left (arbitrary figure for example only), if you increase the right centre-to-flange distance and decrease the left centre-to-flange distance by 4mm, you'll get the same triangulation points for the calculator to work from.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

User avatar
find_bruce
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 7961
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 8:42 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Wheel building

Postby find_bruce » Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:45 am

Roger Musson's calculator http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/spokecalc includes offset rims "ASYM", but I understand it works the way Duck describes. Musson also adds "If the rim manufacturer does not give an offset value then use 3mm."

hedgehog
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:26 pm
Location: south australia

Re: Wheel building

Postby hedgehog » Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:38 pm

increased flange diameter on the drive side
will increase spoke angle =stronger wheel, rear wheal.

increased flange diameter on left side front disk
brake wheel,increase spoke angle =stronger wheel.

in my opinion.

User avatar
barefoot
Posts: 1203
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:05 am
Location: Ballarat

Re: Wheel building

Postby barefoot » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:02 pm

I used assym rims (Velocity Aerohead OC) on my disc road bike.
Rim is offset to the disc side at the front, and to the cassette side on the rear.
That allows equal length, near-equal tension spokes. 32 spokes 3x makes them rather bombproof wheels (in the grand scheme of $200 1750g disc wheelsets ;-) ).
I broke a rear spoke once when I hit a quarter brick (or something similar) in a race... didn't notice until a few people mentioned that the wheel had a bit of a wobble next group ride. Other than that... they see a heap of tarmac (16k km on that bike now... although I've used a different rear wheel for some of it), more than a little bit of dirt road, and the odd bit of singletrack if it happens to be in the way when I'm out for a "road" ride :lol:
Another benefit of symmetrical spoke length is that you just need to buy one bundle of spokes per wheel, which is handy when some of the cheaper spoke vendors sell them in bundles of 32.

tim

User avatar
coffeeandwine
Posts: 546
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:06 pm
Location: Buninyong, Vic

Re: Wheel building

Postby coffeeandwine » Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:45 pm

Building my next set of wheels up for my niece and just after some confirmation on spoke length ( I have made a few mistakes in the past, so wanted to get it right first time). Components:

Hubs: White Industries T11 (20/24)
Rims: HED Belgium C2 clincher
Spokes: Sapim CX-Ray (radial, 2x)

I realise this a fairly popular build combination, and there will be people out there with experience on which spoke lengths work.

My calculations:
280mm (Front, radial)
282mm (DS, 2x)
287.1mm (NDS, 2x) Should I run with 286 or 288?

I would appreciate any advice or shared experience.
Image
Merida 903 from the LBS; Diesel engine

geoff_tewierik
Posts: 304
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:00 pm
Location: Holland Park West, Brisbane

Re: Wheel building

Postby geoff_tewierik » Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:04 pm

coffeeandwine wrote:Building my next set of wheels up for my niece and just after some confirmation on spoke length ( I have made a few mistakes in the past, so wanted to get it right first time). Components:

Hubs: White Industries T11 (20/24)
Rims: HED Belgium C2 clincher
Spokes: Sapim CX-Ray (radial, 2x)

I realise this a fairly popular build combination, and there will be people out there with experience on which spoke lengths work.

My calculations:
280mm (Front, radial)
282mm (DS, 2x)
287.1mm (NDS, 2x) Should I run with 286 or 288?

I would appreciate any advice or shared experience.


I get from here https://leonard.io/edd/
Front: 279.5 - go with 280
Rear DS: 282.7 - go with 282
Rear NDS: 288.2 - go with 288

Here http://www.prowheelbuilder.com/spokelengthcalculator gives similar numbers.

User avatar
Duck!
Expert
Posts: 7077
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 8:21 pm
Location: On The Tools

Re: Wheel building

Postby Duck! » Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:08 pm

Round up to 288mm.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

User avatar
biker jk
Posts: 6213
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Wheel building

Postby biker jk » Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:10 pm

geoff_tewierik wrote:
coffeeandwine wrote:Building my next set of wheels up for my niece and just after some confirmation on spoke length ( I have made a few mistakes in the past, so wanted to get it right first time). Components:

Hubs: White Industries T11 (20/24)
Rims: HED Belgium C2 clincher
Spokes: Sapim CX-Ray (radial, 2x)

I realise this a fairly popular build combination, and there will be people out there with experience on which spoke lengths work.

My calculations:
280mm (Front, radial)
282mm (DS, 2x)
287.1mm (NDS, 2x) Should I run with 286 or 288?

I would appreciate any advice or shared experience.


I get from here https://leonard.io/edd/
Front: 279.5 - go with 280
Rear DS: 282.7 - go with 282
Rear NDS: 288.2 - go with 288

Here http://www.prowheelbuilder.com/spokelengthcalculator gives similar numbers.


Yes I just used the leonard calculator to get the same result. A bit concerning is that the non-drive side spoke tension will be just 40% of the drive side. So even at 130kgf for the drive side spokes that would leave the non-drive side at just 52 kgf.

human909
Posts: 9056
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am

Re: Wheel building

Postby human909 » Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:59 pm

biker jk wrote:Yes I just used the leonard calculator to get the same result. A bit concerning is that the non-drive side spoke tension will be just 40% of the drive side. So even at 130kgf for the drive side spokes that would leave the non-drive side at just 52 kgf.


That is to be expected due to dishing.
Image
{Rear wheel on RIGHT}

http://cyclingtips.com/2015/08/the-scie ... e-tension/

User avatar
biker jk
Posts: 6213
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Wheel building

Postby biker jk » Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:06 pm

human909 wrote:
biker jk wrote:Yes I just used the leonard calculator to get the same result. A bit concerning is that the non-drive side spoke tension will be just 40% of the drive side. So even at 130kgf for the drive side spokes that would leave the non-drive side at just 52 kgf.


That is to be expected due to dishing.
Image
{Rear wheel on RIGHT}

http://cyclingtips.com/2015/08/the-scie ... e-tension/


I know about dishing, so thanks for pointing out the obvious. :lol: My point is that the hub chosen has a geometry which produces a quite low non-drive to drive side tension ratio of 40%. Of course, the move to 11-speed hubs did see a sharp fall in this ratio but some hubs do better than others. Offset rims also help in this regard.

User avatar
coffeeandwine
Posts: 546
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:06 pm
Location: Buninyong, Vic

Re: Wheel building

Postby coffeeandwine » Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:17 pm

Thanks for the feedback and extra discussion on spoke tensions, I will have a closer look at that.

cheers
Image
Merida 903 from the LBS; Diesel engine

User avatar
biker jk
Posts: 6213
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Wheel building

Postby biker jk » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:29 pm

My latest wheel build (it's been a while). I wanted a wider, more aero wheelset for my Lynskey. Not interested in carbon with rim brakes.

After a bit of research I choose the AForce Al33 rim. It's toroidal with brake track width of 24.2mm, maximum width of 26.2mm and internal width of 19.6mm. It's been tested as aero as a Zipp 303 across the most commonly experienced yaw angles.

A little cost cutting with the hubs given I had a strict budget, so I went with BHS hubs. Spokes are Sapim CX-Ray and nipples are brass Polyax.

The wheelset built up nicely thanks to the excellent rims. Front was built 20 hole radial, with spoke tension just under 100kgf. Rear was built 24 hole triplet with 16 drive side spokes laced 3 x and 8 non-drive side spokes laced radially. This provided double the spoke tension on the non-drive side compared to the usual 2 x lacing. Drive side spoke tension averaged just over 115kgf and non-drive side 100kgf. All spokes were within 10% of average tension. Total weight is 1530 grams without rim tape.

I'm running a 23mm tyre on the front which is measuring around 24.5mm on the rim, in order to preserve the aero properties of the wheel. The rear is finished but awaiting rim tape and a tyre.

Image

Image

Image

User avatar
MichaelB
Posts: 9256
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:29 am
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Re: Wheel building

Postby MichaelB » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:28 pm

Can you elaborate a bit more re the 'triplet' lacing and suitability for disc rear wheels ?

Looking at building a new set (prob around the 40-50mm depth carbon rims) and c/lock disc hub (Novatech due to budget) and interested in trying to understand a bit more re this type of build vs the std 3x on both sides.

User avatar
queequeg
Posts: 5367
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:09 am

Re: Wheel building

Postby queequeg » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:03 pm

MichaelB wrote:Can you elaborate a bit more re the 'triplet' lacing and suitability for disc rear wheels ?

Looking at building a new set (prob around the 40-50mm depth carbon rims) and c/lock disc hub (Novatech due to budget) and interested in trying to understand a bit more re this type of build vs the std 3x on both sides.


You are not going to be able to do triplet lacing for a disc wheel, as the disc side of the wheel can't have radial lacing.
'11 Lynskey Cooper CX, '00 Hillbrick Steel Racing (Total Rebuild '10), '15 Cervelo S5

User avatar
biker jk
Posts: 6213
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Wheel building

Postby biker jk » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:04 pm

MichaelB wrote:Can you elaborate a bit more re the 'triplet' lacing and suitability for disc rear wheels ?

Looking at building a new set (prob around the 40-50mm depth carbon rims) and c/lock disc hub (Novatech due to budget) and interested in trying to understand a bit more re this type of build vs the std 3x on both sides.


Triplet lacing and disc brakes aren't compatible. Moreover, you don't have the dishing issue on a rear disc brake wheel.

User avatar
MichaelB
Posts: 9256
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:29 am
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Re: Wheel building

Postby MichaelB » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:31 am

Thought that was the case, ta.

Patt0
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:31 am
Location: Brisbane

Re: Wheel building

Postby Patt0 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:38 am

Was the rim drilled for 16:8 lacing? Could a 32H hub be used for 16:8? Or is it better to get a 16:8 hub?
Image

User avatar
biker jk
Posts: 6213
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Wheel building

Postby biker jk » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:59 am

Patt0 wrote:Was the rim drilled for 16:8 lacing? Could a 32H hub be used for 16:8? Or is it better to get a 16:8 hub?


Yes the rim was drilled for 16:8 lacing. The spoke holes are not centred so you have two drive side spoke holes on the right side of the rim followed by one non-drive side spoke hole on the left side of the rim.

I guess you could use a 32 hole hub for 16:8 lacing. My only concern would be the non-drive side flange to centre distance. Some argue you need it to be larger to achieve the same lateral stiffness with fewer non-drive side spokes in a 16:8 lacing.

User avatar
queequeg
Posts: 5367
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:09 am

Re: Wheel building

Postby queequeg » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:31 am

Patt0 wrote:Was the rim drilled for 16:8 lacing? Could a 32H hub be used for 16:8? Or is it better to get a 16:8 hub?


I was always under the impression that you should fill every hole on the hub flange, as skipping holes means you are potentially putting undue stress on a hub that was not designed for that usage. Also, keep in mind that not all hubs support radial lacing, so you would have the added issue of the radial lacing on the side where you skip holes putting even higher stress on the hub flange, and it may well have a catastrophic failure when you least expect it.

Bottom line, always buy a hub that is appropriate for the lacing pattern you are going to use.
'11 Lynskey Cooper CX, '00 Hillbrick Steel Racing (Total Rebuild '10), '15 Cervelo S5

Patt0
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:31 am
Location: Brisbane

Re: Wheel building

Postby Patt0 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:17 pm

I guess you could use a 32 hole hub for 16:8 lacing. My only concern would be the non-drive side flange to centre distance. Some argue you need it to be larger to achieve the same lateral stiffness with fewer non-drive side spokes in a 16:8 lacing.


queequeg wrote:
Patt0 wrote:Was the rim drilled for 16:8 lacing? Could a 32H hub be used for 16:8? Or is it better to get a 16:8 hub?


I was always under the impression that you should fill every hole on the hub flange, as skipping holes means you are potentially putting undue stress on a hub that was not designed for that usage. Also, keep in mind that not all hubs support radial lacing, so you would have the added issue of the radial lacing on the side where you skip holes putting even higher stress on the hub flange, and it may well have a catastrophic failure when you least expect it.

Bottom line, always buy a hub that is appropriate for the lacing pattern you are going to use.


Thanks. Sound advice.
Image

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: find_bruce