Wheel building

[ianganderton]

So I've not measured a spoke before but this looks like 275mm to me. (Just looked again and they could also be 278 [emoji17] )

Measure from the inside of the elbow to the tip of the spoke. Spokes are most commonly even-numbered 2mm increments (eg. 274, 276, 278mm etc.), but there are exceptions.

Cool, thanks for this

Then I would say 276mm

[find_bruce]

According to http://www.kstoerz.com/freespoke/hub/169" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Alfine hub pitch circle diameter Left 92.8mm, pitch circle diameter Left 93.0mm, Flange distance left 30.9mm, Flange distance right 23.6mm, spoke hole =2.9mm
ERD =583

Feed those numbers into the DT Swiss calculator for 12 mm brass nipples

2 cross pattern = 262 mm left, 261 mm right
3 cross pattern = 278 mm left, 277 mm right

On that basis your ERD looks about right.

I will check my spoke lengths again tonight

[ianganderton]

OK I'm just reading the ebook the Bicycle Wheel, Third Edition, by Jobst Brandt as linked earlier in this thread and I have some questions

I've just finished part one "The theory of the spoked wheel"

I'm not sure when this dates from but it doesn't include any reference to disc brakes but mentions hub brakes every now and then. I figure the torque generated between the 2 are the same in principal.

It briefly mentions identical and mirror lacing with reference to torque. I notice my front wheel is laced 'mirror' and the rear is laced 'identical'

As previously mentioned my rear hub is a disc Alfine and by eye it seems to have no dish and even flanges. Ideally should it then be laced 'mirror', the same as the front and for the same reasons?

Secondly he talks about ideal spoke tension being based on the strength of the rim but I haven't yet found how to evaluate that. (Perhaps I will in the next chapter!!)

[human909]

You are over thinking things. So is Brandt in this case. Also the only way in which he suggests it matters is if there is minimal clearance between the spokes and the rear derailleur. You don't have a derailleur so it is irrelevant.

[Duck!]

Gerd Schraner, my wheelbuilding reference, makes similar suggestions. Ideally the most torque-loaded "pulling" spokes would lie on the outside of the hub flange; on a rim braked rear wheel the most highly-loaded spokes are the pulling spokes on the drive side, and what you do on the off-side is largely irrelevant. However, when you throw a hub brake (disc is just one form of hub brake) into the mix you start applying more load to the off-side spokes in opposition to the drive torque - the pulling spokes under braking force are the pushing spokes under drive force. So you ideally you have an asymmetric or identically-laced rear wheel (whichever side you're looking from, the spokes on the outside of the hub flange angle to your left off the hub).

Similarly with the front wheel, a rim-braked wheel has no torque load at all, so lacing pattern doesn't really matter that much. But again, chuck a hub brake into the mix & you want the pulling spokes outside the flange on the brake side. The off side doesn't matter that much, but symmetrical or mirrored lacing is generally used for cosmetic reasons more than anything else

[ianganderton]

I will check my spoke lengths again tonight

Did you get chance to have a look?

[find_bruce]

I will check my spoke lengths again tonight

Did you get chance to have a look?

Yep, seems my memory has been playing tricks on me - the bundle of spokes I have are 270mm, sorry about that.

[ianganderton]

No worries

[lunar_c]

Just built my first wheel set from scratch (have only replaced spokes and trued wobbly wheels before) and thought I'd share and encourage others to give it a go.



This was a kind of testing the waters build, these will be spare wheels for my wife and I to use really, and I'll use them in the hills until I build my "ideal" wheel set.

I used H Plus Son Archetype rims which everyone raves about - and they are beautiful rims.

I got some 20/24h Novatec super light hubs (A291SB-SL, F482SB-SL) for $115, with skewers, and they came it at 288g for the set without skewers. Mixed reviews with these - the quality looks okay but as is the case with all of the super lightweight Chinese hubs the bearings in the front hub are tiny and not very well sealed, the back hub has decent sized bearings but they aren't terribly well sealed either, but those can be changed.

My only real concern is cracking on the spoke flanges as they are drilled between the spoke holes (I'd have preferred them be a few grams heavier instead but..) so I'll have to keep an eye on those, but I'm not terribly hard on wheels.

Spokes are sapim lasers - beautiful spokes!

Came it at 1498g for the pair without skewers, which I'm happy with. The rims are certainly robust (they claim 20/24h archetypes will take a 90kg rider..) and came in pretty much as advertised - 470/482g for my pair.

[QuangVuong]

Came across a post on my first wheel build, and I may as well repost it here.

This is an interesting build, 18 spokes on the front and rear. I was warrantied a pair of Aerohead rims, but silly me, thought that 18h hubs were easy to come by. So I needed up with a pair of 18h rims, but I'm still going ahead with the build. With the help of our very own Velo13, of XLR8 Performance Wheels, I started on the front. It's a 36h 6400 hub laced radially to the the 18h Aerohead with DT double butted spokes. Went well enough, being laterally true, but slightly off radial trueness.


I didnt have a truing stand, so I just used a fork, and tape. I didnt even use a dishing gauge(and still haven't)


This is laced up, but not tensioned up yet.




The rear wheel will be interesting to build up. It'll be a triplet lacing(6 NDS in 1x, and 12 DS in 2x), with DT plain gauge spokes. This is the NDS. The trailing spokes go under the leading spokes and they do not overlap.




And all tensioned up. Chose to lace the NDS heads in as it had a more straight line to the spoke holes. The first ride was worrying with the pinging noises as they unstressed themselves. But Ill see how they hold up over time. Big thanks to Velo13 for his advice and for the spokes, and to find_bruce for lending his tensiometer.




The emptiness of the rear hub on the NDS is crazy.


Wheels still hold up fine, and probably could do with a bit of a true. And I do have a similar build coming up soon with 36h Shimano 6700 hubs laced to 18h Velocity Deep V rims.

[chill]

Just built my first wheel set from scratch (have only replaced spokes and trued wobbly wheels before) and thought I'd share and encourage others to give it a go.

This was a kind of testing the waters build, these will be spare wheels for my wife and I to use really, and I'll use them in the hills until I build my "ideal" wheel set.

I used H Plus Son Archetype rims which everyone raves about - and they are beautiful rims.

They look good. I bought the black version but haven't had time to get something done yet. Did you use a tension meter? Also what size rim tape? Cheers.

[lunar_c]

I have had a friend who runs a LBS tension and true them, as I don't have the tools yet but he's slowly teaching me how to do it.

[koshari]

i have the park tool tensioner, the readings can vary somewhat along the spoke.
http://www.this link is broken.au/park-tools-spo ... 7&curr=AUD" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[biker jk]

i have the park tool tensioner, the readings can vary somewhat along the spoke.
http://www.this link is broken.au/park-tools-spo ... 7&curr=AUD" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's why you need to take the readings at the same location on each spoke. The absolute tension measured by the Park tool isn't that accurate. It's the relative tension that is more important. I try to get tension to a uniform amount, defined as a maximum 10% variation.

[queequeg]

i have the park tool tensioner, the readings can vary somewhat along the spoke.
http://www.this link is broken.au/park-tools-spo ... 7&curr=AUD" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Echoing biker jk, you need to measure in the same spot on each spoke.
It's only a guide to get the tension even. Don't chase the gauge trying to get the spokes all spot on, and remember that the drive side/disc side will have a higher tension than the NDS, so don't go and try increasing the tension there.

I'm happy if each spoke is within 10% either side of the target tension on the supplied conversion chart.

[barefoot]

I've never had a tension meter.

I get even tension by plucking and listening. I've got a musical background, I have more than a little bit of experience tuning by sound.

I only built MTB wheels for years... they're easy to tension, because you just tighten them up until you can't tighten any more (usually because you start rounding nipples), and that's nearly tight enough. If it's even and true (and stress relieved) at this point, the wheel is done.

Now I'm doing more road wheels, they're a bit trickier because the rim isn't as stiff, so they're prone to compression buckling. They go progressively taco-shaped with increasing tension, once you've exceeded the buckling threshold. Then you need to back them off until they straighten up... and see how close to the threshold you can get them. As tight as possible without buckling, and no tighter, is the goal.

I've listened to people tell me that you can't build a good wheel without a meter, that you're just guessing, blah blah. With no experience to dispute this, I just nod and agree that it's probably true.

I understood that there's tables of what the "best" tension is for each pattern of each combination of components. Never been entirely sure how all that works... just that it's probably better than the trial-and-error method of compression-tacoing road wheels.

Now you guys are saying that the tension gauge is only really useful for getting even tension. That's fine with me. That means that I definitely don't need one, because my musical tuning method works just fine already.

Still never folded a wheel that I built myself. Folded plenty of others. Worn out several rims on my own wheels too.

tim

[elfoam]

I use an old fork and a dial indicator stuck to the fork to build wheels, it takes me a good amount of time but they come out dead straight so that's something I guess. I don't have any tools other than a dial and a spoke wrench. I haven't even researched how you are supposed to build a wheel :s, that just seemed a good way to do it with the tools I had. I use an existing good wheel to guestamate the spoke tension. I don't weigh much so they don't need to be super awesome

[Thoglette]

I've listened to people tell me that you can't build a good wheel without a meter, that you're just guessing, blah blah. With no experience to dispute this, I just nod and agree that it's probably true.

Plus several. My wheels probably aren't good but they're good enough. The "ting" test shows they're in the same ballpark as the rest of the bikes in the shed so I'm happy enough. But I'm not chasing olympic medals nor circumnavigating the continent. So YMMV

[QuangVuong]

Looks like I'm in luck. I pulled apart the wheels, and the front spokes measure in at 281mm, DS 280mm, and NDS 282mm.

Now to buy some nipples and get onto the build.

[ianganderton]

N00b question,

I'm just placing an order with c r c for DT Swiss spokes and doing the calculations its recommending odd number lengths but they are only available in even numbers

So if its recommending 275mm spokes should I order 274 or 276??

I'm looking at using DT Swiss revolution spokes with brass nipples http://www.this link is broken/au/e ... -prod91858" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When using the calculator it seems to allow for stretch when calculating lengths is this the case?

[Duck!]

Depends a bit on what their exact "calculated length" is, but generally I'd go up. You're unlikely to bottom out the threads unless you've made a fairly substantial measuring error, so a little bit longer is OK. Being a bit short increases the risk of popping the heads off the nipple over time because the spoke threads aren't going all the way in relieving the temsion.

[Velo13]

N00b question,

I'm just placing an order with c r c for DT Swiss spokes and doing the calculations its recommending odd number lengths but they are only available in even numbers

So if its recommending 275mm spokes should I order 274 or 276??

I'm looking at using DT Swiss revolution spokes with brass nipples http://www.this link is broken/au/e ... -prod91858" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When using the calculator it seems to allow for stretch when calculating lengths is this the case?

Hi Ian, as with so many things, the answer is "it depends". And it depends on many things ...

1. What ERD are you using? Is it measured, or from the web? Is it based on spoke length to the top of the nipple, or nipple flats? Always measure the rims yourself, they vary.

2. What spoke calculator are you using? An unmodified Spocalc calculates the length to an exact ERD. That's what I would use in your position. Coupled with the above (and reliable hub measurements) you are now really quite accurate.

3. What nipples are you planning on using? Spocalc calculates based on using a 10mm nipple, the length to the top of the nipple. If you are using 12mm nipples (more common) then the ERD/spoke length can be adjusted downwards (-3mm/-1.5mm).

4. DT Swiss Revolutions are a very light spoke. If you are new to wheelbuilding, heavier, building MTB wheels, low spokes counts (<32) or building a rear wheel, I would recommend against using this spoke. Use something heavier gauge like the Competition (14/15/14G), save some $ and put up with the extra 30-50g. You can thank me later for a more reliable and stiffer wheelset.

If you do use the Revs, note that they will stretch once you get them up to tension, and this needs to be factored into you calculations. On a front or rear driveside, this will be up to about 1mm, so you need to order a 1mm shorter spoke to accommodate. On the rear NDS the tension is lower, so assume they'll stretch only 0.6mm.

Using Comps, half the above stretch assumptions.

I am not aware if the Spoke calculator you are using incorporates stretch. Perhaps the Sapim or DT Swiss online ones do, but I don't use those ..

So there you go, easy isn't it!

Go with 274 if you are happy to take the punt. You'll probably be fine.

[Velo13]

I've never had a tension meter.

I only built MTB wheels for years... they're easy to tension, because you just tighten them up until you can't tighten any more (usually because you start rounding nipples), and that's nearly tight enough. If it's even and true (and stress relieved) at this point, the wheel is done.

Now I'm doing more road wheels, they're a bit trickier because the rim isn't as stiff, so they're prone to compression buckling. They go progressively taco-shaped with increasing tension, once you've exceeded the buckling threshold. Then you need to back them off until they straighten up... and see how close to the threshold you can get them. As tight as possible without buckling, and no tighter, is the goal.

Hi Tim, buy a tension meter and love it. They are not expensive, and are 100% complimentary to the "pluck" method. I use both methods on every wheel I build.

If you start rounding nipples, it can be because of many factors, but it's not a good indicator that you are "at the right tension".

The "compression buckling" technique is something that Musson and Brandt discuss, but I don't subscribe. With modern lightweight rims and low spoke counts, it's better to have the tensions just high enough that no spoke will ever go slack (and nipples unwind, or spokes/nipples be "shock loaded" as the wheel rotates), but not too high that spoke tension related cracking of the rim is accelerated. It's a fine line, but in my experience, the longest lasting wheels are those with an even and moderate spoke tension, on good components.

Note that lots of today's lower end factory wheelsets build to very high tensions (160kgf+) in order to ensure spokes don't go slack under heavy riders. The downside of this is that spokes are fatigued far quicker and end up breaking earlier than they should. Easton, Fulcrum and Shimano are all guilty of this. That said, they only need your wheels to last for the warranty period. So I suppose they see the useful life of wheels being 1 year!

I prefer to see my wheels last the life of the braking surface ...

[find_bruce]

One advantage of the heavy rain in Sydney is that it was a good time to build my new wheel. Nothing special - SP PL-8 dynamo hub to Open Pro Rim, 32 spoke, polyax nipples. Centre lock disc means I can easily fit or remove the disc so with 28mm tyres I can easily swap the wheel between my roadie for Audax rides & my commuter.

Was obviously tuned out at first - didn't notice a short spoke had slipped into my bundle nor that my bag of 12mm nipples included some 14mm soon noticed when trying to lace up the wheel & sorted things out so the wheel built up easily. Funny how your perspective can change. I used to think open pros were the duck's guts, but then built with NOS Australian manufactured velocity deep V and now think the open pros aren't stiff enough.

[lunar_c]

Finally finished truing and mounted some tyres on my new wheels .. Novatec super lights and h plus son archetypes 20/24h with sapim laser's .. 1498g bare.





First impressions, what a great rim the archetype is - stiff, and the wider profile means cornering is transformed.