Wheel building

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Re: Wheel building

Postby Velo13 » Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:39 pm

Hey Insight,

You have selected parts very well, however if stiffness is your ultimate goal I would recommend thicker gauge spokes on the rear driveside as a minimum (Sapim Race), or the whole rear wheel. The weigh penalty is about 12g per side. The added stiffness is (I think) noticeable. The weight of this wheelset will be in the 1500-1600g range in either case.

Good luck getting hold of Alchemy hubs .... White Industries T11 would be a good alternative if you can't find the ELF/ORC. Not quite as "cutting edge" from a geometry or bearing placement perspective, but not far behind, and bombproof otherwise. Less expensive as well.

All the best. J
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by BNA » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:51 pm

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Re: Wheel building

Postby geoffs » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:51 pm

as to the stiffness of rims I'd rate them as follows:

Velocity A23
Placenti sl23
H plus Son Archetype
HED Belgian being the stiffest and best to build and well worth the extra money IMHO

having said that though my wheels are A23's with CKr45 hubs and CXrays 32h and I'm 90kg and the wheels have been fine. I'd love to swap the rims to HED Belgium's though.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Velo13 » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:16 pm

geoffs wrote:as to the stiffness of rims I'd rate them as follows:

Velocity A23
Placenti sl23
H plus Son Archetype
HED Belgian being the stiffest and best to build and well worth the extra money IMHO

having said that though my wheels are A23's with CKr45 hubs and CXrays 32h and I'm 90kg and the wheels have been fine. I'd love to swap the rims to HED Belgium's though.


I would rate the HED C2 and the Archetype about the same in stiffness - the profile is very similar (read into that what you will), as is the weight.

I run a pair of 32h A23s with Sapim Lasers on Chorus hubs and they've been great as well. Stiff enough for my 82kgs, and around 1630g, still light.

I have a pair of A23 24h front/28h rear demos with DT Aerolite spokes (1500g), and I can tell that they are not quite as stiff as the 32h, but they still feel snappy enough.

But I have a pair of 24/28 Archetypes sitting in my build queue earmarked for myself. I'll use Sapim Race, and they will be stiffer than the 32h Chorus wheelset for sure. About 1600g with White Industries T11.

A wheel's performance is the sum of all it's pieces. Careful spec can make all the difference. The gauge of the spoke is crucial to wheel stiffness.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby biker jk » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:17 pm

geoffs wrote:as to the stiffness of rims I'd rate them as follows:

Velocity A23
Placenti sl23
H plus Son Archetype
HED Belgian being the stiffest and best to build and well worth the extra money IMHO

having said that though my wheels are A23's with CKr45 hubs and CXrays 32h and I'm 90kg and the wheels have been fine. I'd love to swap the rims to HED Belgium's though.


Velocity A23 is very shallow and light, Pacenti deeper but light (both around 450g), so the ordering there is fine. Archetype is slightly deeper than HED Belgian but a bit heavier so could be stiffer. Kinlin XC-279 is deeper and heavier than all of these and builds into a very stiff wheelset.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby biker jk » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:42 pm

Here's a nice video demonstrating lateral wheel flex thanks to a shallow rim with too few spokes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o-HC5quvec
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Re: Wheel building

Postby geoffs » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:39 pm

just realised that I have a pr of Pacenti TL 28's not the sl23 so discount my last comment.
I built up a pr of Kinlin XD 230's last week to Rotaz MTB disc hubs and the built up nicely.
Next project for myself will be Son28 ISO disc for the front and a CK rear tandem hub to HED Belgian Plus rims 32h with CXrays for the tandem as a set of wheels for Audax rides
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Re: Wheel building

Postby ironhanglider » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:52 pm

geoffs wrote:just realised that I have a pr of Pacenti TL 28's not the sl23 so discount my last comment.
I built up a pr of Kinlin XD 230's last week to Rotaz MTB disc hubs and the built up nicely.
Next project for myself will be Son28 ISO disc for the front and a CK rear tandem hub to HED Belgian Plus rims 32h with CXrays for the tandem as a set of wheels for Audax rides


Sounds like light tandem wheels.

Cheers,

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Re: Wheel building

Postby insightt47 » Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:29 pm

I'm leaning towards the Heds Plus due to their tubeless compatibility, laced to White industries or campagnolo record hubs. Alchemy isn't available as far as i know. Does anyone know if 32 spokes in the front is an overkill for my weight 88kg. Whenever i climb i can hear the spokes on my fulcrum racing 1's rattle which have 19 spokes upfront and 21 rear.
Last edited by insightt47 on Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby insightt47 » Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:33 pm

biker jk wrote:Here's a nice video demonstrating lateral wheel flex thanks to a shallow rim with too few spokes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o-HC5quvec


Thats what my wheels feel like theyre doing even when im not sprinting, just pedalling hard for long distances.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Velo13 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:23 am

geoffs wrote:just realised that I have a pr of Pacenti TL 28's not the sl23 so discount my last comment.
I built up a pr of Kinlin XD 230's last week to Rotaz MTB disc hubs and the built up nicely.
Next project for myself will be Son28 ISO disc for the front and a CK rear tandem hub to HED Belgian Plus rims 32h with CXrays for the tandem as a set of wheels for Audax rides


I would be going for a minimum 2.0/1.8/2.0 spokes on a Tandem. CX-Rays (or any 1.5mm spoke) will be too light for that application. I fear you will have quite a lot of wheel flex, and might snap spokes. Saving 30g per wheel is not worth the risk in my opinion.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Velo13 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:30 am

insightt47 wrote:I'm leaning towards the Heds Plus due to their tubeless compatibility, laced to White industries or campagnolo record hubs. Alchemy isn't available as far as i know. Does anyone know if 32 spokes in the front is an overkill for my weight 88kg. Whenever i climb i can hear the spokes on my fulcrum racing 1's rattle which have 19 spokes upfront and 21 rear.


Hey Insight.

A 24h front with a wide flange hub like the T11 would be OK, but ideally spec a 2.0/1.8/2.0mm spoke to minimise flex.

A 28h front would be bombproof. No need to go as high as 32h, but if you do, 2.0/1.5/2.0mm spokes would be okay if you wanted to shed a little weight.

A 24f/28r build would be a fast/light compromise. 24f/32r or 28f/32r would be a little more bomber (and considering you are planning on racing and training 700k/week on these - that's a wiser choice in my mind).

Not a lot of spokes on those Fulcrums, and light ones at that.

Not many spokes + light spokes + light rims = light but flexy wheels.

You can't circumvent the physics.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Velo13 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:39 am

insightt47 wrote:
biker jk wrote:Here's a nice video demonstrating lateral wheel flex thanks to a shallow rim with too few spokes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o-HC5quvec


Interesting video. Most of this flex is actually due to bearing placement and axle flex. The rim flex (on a shallow rim) would actually be greater at the road.

Bike wheels made with (most) alloy rims deform the most at the road, and this is not greatly transferred to the top of the wheel (opposite to the road contact point - near the brake area). They whole structure is not stiff enough. Think of the wheel as deforming like this "l" where the flex concentrates at the point where the wheel contacts the road. This is especially the case with light rims and or spokes.

Deep alloy rims (nd better quality deep carbon rims) do manage to retain the structure stiffness more, and this is why they can flex up at the pads - the whole system cants left and right "\" or "/".
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Re: Wheel building

Postby geoffs » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:01 am

You are most probably right about CXrays being to light for a tandem but people are winning races on Paketa Tandems fitted with 24h American Classic 420's, so I just want to see how they go.
I once did a time trial on our old Santana Sovereign tandem with a lightweight front wheel. I remember looking down and seeing the wheel flexing from side to side and thinking "oh s**t, this is going to hurt!" but the wheel didn't break.
Currrent wheels are Velocity Aeroheat 40h with DT Swiss 540 hubs and PG spokes. The hubs alone weigh in at 720gr so it's a seriously heavy set of wheels. I want to try something a bit lighter :)
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Velo13 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:30 am

How about some quality hubs on Hplusson Sl42s. 1850-1900g, built to last, stiff as the proverbial, and aero to boot.

Depending on your total weight and power output, you can choose number of spokes, pattern and gauge. Of course you can choose rim finish as well.

A Ti freehub body would be of long term benefit as well (you probably know where I am heading here!).

On all but the most hilliest of rides, low wheel weight is considerably less of a benefit than improved aerodynamics anyway (as in most bicycle applications - don't believe everything you read on the internet or the glossies!).

Just a thought.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby ironhanglider » Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:18 am

I'm intrigued as to the numbers here. What hubs are you thinking of?

According to the website SL 42's are 615g which leaves only 620 - 670g for hubs and spokes and I'm guessing you'd need 150g to 200g of spokes.

The DT hubs are certainly heavy and I'll believe the 720g geoffs quoted and I have weighed the White Industries MI6 hubs which come in at 200g front and 380g rear (steel freehub), so there is certainly potential for lighter hubs.

Sub 2kg tandem wheels for discs are uncommon without going exotic or coming with weight limits. Rolf and Spinergy come to mind, but I don't care for either, even before price is considered.

I'm not concerned with CX-rays snapping, but flex may be more of an issue. Since geoffs is planning disc brakes, at least the flex won't result in brake rub.


Just curious,

Cameron
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Re: Wheel building

Postby insightt47 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:37 am

Here are some numbers in response to an email I sent out to wheel builders asking to build me a stiffer wheel.

For a rim:
6/10 Hed c2
3/10 Pacenti sl23
1/10 H PLus Son Archetype

For a hub:
8/10 White industries
1/10 Campagnolo
1/10 Chris King

Spokes:
6/10 a mix of cx-rays on the front and race spokes on the rear
4/10 a mix of dt-aerolite on the front and dt-comp on the rear

Its important to note that I mentioned i wanted to run a tubeless setup so if i hadn't the H Plus Son Archetype probably would have recieved more votes. Also nearly all the builders recommended Alchemy hubs over White Industries but since they're not available white industries was recommended as an alternative.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Velo13 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:18 am

ironhanglider wrote:I'm intrigued as to the numbers here. What hubs are you thinking of?

According to the website SL 42's are 615g which leaves only 620 - 670g for hubs and spokes and I'm guessing you'd need 150g to 200g of spokes.

The DT hubs are certainly heavy and I'll believe the 720g geoffs quoted and I have weighed the White Industries MI6 hubs which come in at 200g front and 380g rear (steel freehub), so there is certainly potential for lighter hubs.


I did assume White Industries T11 hubs due to the discussion regarding the AC 420s (I would certainly not use anything less - you want a good strong flange, and Ti freehub for tandem loads), so not a disc hubset. 28h front, Laser Spokes. 32h rear, Race Spokes. Brass nipples all around. 1887g using my average measured weight for SL42s (602g).

Using White Industries MI6 would result in a 2113g wheelset (with the standard steel freehub). A Ti freehub could be specced to save a few grams.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Velo13 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:25 am

insightt47 wrote:Here are some numbers in response to an email I sent out to wheel builders asking to build me a stiffer wheel.

For a rim:
6/10 Hed c2
3/10 Pacenti sl23
1/10 H PLus Son Archetype

For a hub:
8/10 White industries
1/10 Campagnolo
1/10 Chris King

Spokes:
6/10 a mix of cx-rays on the front and race spokes on the rear
4/10 a mix of dt-aerolite on the front and dt-comp on the rear

Its important to note that I mentioned i wanted to run a tubeless setup so if i hadn't the H Plus Son Archetype probably would have recieved more votes. Also nearly all the builders recommended Alchemy hubs over White Industries but since they're not available white industries was recommended as an alternative.


The spokes is a "you say Tomater, I say Tomato" argument. Seems everyone is speccing you the same in that space, just aligning with their preferred vendor.

I am surprised that the Pacenti has not gotten more votes, as it is "the fashion" right now. Supply is difficult, so maybe that's why the HEDs are high on the list.

I would agree, if the tubeless requirement was relaxed, the Archetype would feature much higher. They are well finished, extremely strong, and a known entity. Not expensive either.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby geoffs » Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:15 pm

T11's are for 130mm spacing. Most tandems are 145mmm these days so the choice of quality hubs is limited to CK, White Ind, DTSwiss. I would like a Paketa that uses 130mm hubs but I haven't saved up the $12k for the frame I want let alone the parts :-)
I've built up quite a few wheels now using the Chris King hubs and everyone just can't believe how smooth the bearings are. I also have the full CK tool set as I have been using CK hubs for 10+ years on our old tandem. The hub is still going strong with no bearing problems and the SS ringdrive still in good condition.
The main problem with CK tandem hubs is that they cost nearly $500 for the rear hub vs $270 for the White Industries tandem hub.

Insight47 - I have no idea why whoever you asked rated the CK as 1/10 and the Whiteind as 8/10 as the CK hubs have the flanges further apart which would build an ever so slightly stiffer wheel. I would doubt that anyone would be able to pick the difference just like you wouldn't know if your tyres have a extra 1 psi in them.
I have rebuilt a few of the Fulcrum 1's. The main problem with them is if you have ridden them a few times in the rain the aluminium nipples corrode and they tend to break when truing the wheel.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby insightt47 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:37 pm

geoffs wrote:Insight47 - I have no idea why whoever you asked rated the CK as 1/10 and the Whiteind as 8/10 as the CK hubs have the flanges further apart which would build an ever so slightly stiffer wheel. I would doubt that anyone would be able to pick the difference just like you wouldn't know if your tyres have a extra 1 psi in them.
I have rebuilt a few of the Fulcrum 1's. The main problem with them is if you have ridden them a few times in the rain the aluminium nipples corrode and they tend to break when truing the wheel.


haha not rated, that was the number of people who "recommended" that particular hub for the build i asked for :)
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Re: Wheel building

Postby silentbutdeadly » Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:49 am

geoffs wrote:Most tandems are 145mmm these days so the choice of quality hubs is limited to CK, White Ind, DTSwiss.


You forgot about Royce... http://www.royceuk.co.uk/Hubs/
Ours is not to reason why...merely to point and giggle
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Re: Wheel building

Postby familyguy » Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:43 pm

OK, seeing as this is the de facto "what's your wheelbuild"/"critique my wheelbuild" thread...

I'm spitballing a wheelset build based on my set of still-silky Ultegra 6500 28H hubs*. These are currently built into Gipiemme XR-30 deep aluminium rims, which are developing a bit of a creak. I'm not riding them mostly because of this annoying creak, but I have other wheelsets on the go. So I'm on the verge of pulling them apart to re-use the hubs. Currently laced with DT double butted radial front, and radial NDS/2x or 3x DS rear (can't remember which).

I don't object to deep carbon, but a set of lower profile (25mm) CF rims would go a'ight IMHO. But low profile CF practically = aluminium, I'd wager. The target use would be quicker, long rides, mostly aimed at hills, without being so light that they can't take a few bumps. Certainly not commuting or pothole jumping use.

6500 hubs, 28H
Good quality double butted, radial front and 2x/3x rear (not radial rear)
Aluminium nipples
LightBike 24mm ( http://www.light-bicycle.com/wider-carb ... ncher.html )

Pro's:
110kg weight limit (which is me, plus bike and gear, plus another 10kg leeway)
28H available
Range of finishes
Clincher
Nice coloured alum. nipples available

Con's:
Is low profile CF for road just plainly barking up the wrong tree?

What are some of the more wheeltech hive-mind thoughts?

Jim

* Of course, this is all dependent upon me having money, which is a major stumbling block.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby biker jk » Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:05 pm

familyguy wrote:OK, seeing as this is the de facto "what's your wheelbuild"/"critique my wheelbuild" thread...

I'm spitballing a wheelset build based on my set of still-silky Ultegra 6500 28H hubs*. These are currently built into Gipiemme XR-30 deep aluminium rims, which are developing a bit of a creak. I'm not riding them mostly because of this annoying creak, but I have other wheelsets on the go. So I'm on the verge of pulling them apart to re-use the hubs. Currently laced with DT double butted radial front, and radial NDS/2x or 3x DS rear (can't remember which).

I don't object to deep carbon, but a set of lower profile (25mm) CF rims would go a'ight IMHO. But low profile CF practically = aluminium, I'd wager. The target use would be quicker, long rides, mostly aimed at hills, without being so light that they can't take a few bumps. Certainly not commuting or pothole jumping use.

6500 hubs, 28H
Good quality double butted, radial front and 2x/3x rear (not radial rear)
Aluminium nipples
LightBike 24mm ( http://www.light-bicycle.com/wider-carb ... ncher.html )

Pro's:
110kg weight limit (which is me, plus bike and gear, plus another 10kg leeway)
28H available
Range of finishes
Clincher
Nice coloured alum. nipples available

Con's:
Is low profile CF for road just plainly barking up the wrong tree?

What are some of the more wheeltech hive-mind thoughts?

Jim

* Of course, this is all dependent upon me having money, which is a major stumbling block.


I wouldn't choose a carbon rim since if you will be doing hills there will be descents and the all too common braking issues. You can buy a light aluminium rim of just over 400 grams (Kinlin XR19W http://www.bikehubstore.com/category-s/158.htm and with 28 spokes should be fine at your weight (staying away from potholes, etc.). I wouldn't go a lighter alloy rim without 32 spokes on the rear. If you are keeping the hubs then I presume they have been serviced and in good shape. You will likely need to lace the new rims the same as the old rims since the spokes do leave a groove in the hub flange. I've never seen a 28 spoke radial lacing (your front hub) and I'm pretty surprised Shimano would allow such a high spoke count radial lacing.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Velo13 » Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:15 pm

familyguy wrote: The target use would be quicker, long rides, mostly aimed at hills, without being so light that they can't take a few bumps. Certainly not commuting or pothole jumping use.


Jim, with the right rims and a good build, a 28h wheelset should be fine. If you choose a low pro carbon rim, it will be absolutely critical to get tensions "goldilocks" (not to loose, not too tight) to avoid pulling spokes but still keep them tight enough to not loosen nipples.

Also, use only the finest quality alloy nipples (on the front only, or preferably avoid them) - carbon wheels act like big batteries, and alloy nipples corrode really quickly if they are not good quality/maintained/slathered in grease/all of the above.

A good alloy rim (Hplusson, HED or Rouleur) will have a far greater margin for error with tensions than a generic carbon.

You also don't have to run carbon specific pads, or worry about the heat issues of braking. You will carry +80g weight per wheel over the generic carbons, save $100+ per wheel, and (maybe?) have better support if something goes wrong (which I think we'll all agree is far less likely with alloy rims anyway).

With the money saved you could use a lightweight front spoke (2.0/1.5/2.0) to catch some of the weight disadvantages back. I would heartily recommend brass nipples and 2.0/1.8/2.0 spokes on the rear or either Carbon or Alloy on a 28h for you. Otherwise the stiffness compromise is too great, and will be noticeable.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Rex » Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:30 pm

I was very close to getting a generic carbon clincher wheelset but with the weather about to turn for the worse and the fact I am trying to steer away from having multiple wheelsets, the points Velo13 mentioned can't be ignored.

Instead I am going for the following :
Flo30 rims (24/28), laced 1x and 3xDS/2xNDS
Hope Mono Pro RS hubs
Brass nipples
Sapim CX Ray
Dura Ace 9000 skewers

They're not going to be super-light, tipping the scales at around 1700g I expect but for an all-round, bomb-proof, aero allow wheelset that I can do anything and everything with I can't wait to get them built.
Rim's are in the mail and will be here soon, so will see them completed in a month or two I expect.
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