Wheel building

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biker jk
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Re: Wheel building

Postby biker jk » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:23 am

jules21 wrote:
biker jk wrote:24 rear spokes, radially laced non-drive side? Thin DT Revolution spokes? Watch out for spoke wind up with those thin spokes. If you haven't taken the twist out then they will unwind again, even with linseed oil.

when i went for a test ride afterwards, i could hear them unwinding - that crackling sound as the spoke tension pulls on the thread interface with the nipple.

do you know how i should take the twist out?


Attach some paper flags to the spokes. So when you tighten them you can see the twist as the flags moves. To unwind the twist, overtighten then back off (so for example, tighten 1/4 of a turn and back of 1/8 of a turn).

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jules21
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Re: Wheel building

Postby jules21 » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:30 am

brilliant. thanks mate.

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Velo13
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Velo13 » Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:44 pm

Additionally, stress relieve the wheel frequently during the "re-build". There are lots of methods to do this, but the only one I feel works well is:

1. Take the wheel out of the stand.
2. Place it axle down on the top of a carpet square/block of soft timber/anything that's a bit squishy to ensure that the axle end doesn't get marked. I do this on the floor on a carpet square, some do it on a table.
3. Place hands at 9 and 3 o'clock and lean on the rim with a fair bit of body weight (ie lots, with a reasonably tensioned 700c wheel it is possible to use my full 82kgs to do this), forcing all of the pressure through the axle.
4. Rotate rim 10-15degrees and repeat 3 (until you stop hearing the spokes unwinding - usually 6-10 times covered the wheel).
5. Turn the wheel over and do the other side following steps 2 - 4.

In a build, I usually do this 6-10 times. Increasing the "load" as the tension in the wheel increases.

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Re: Wheel building

Postby Crawf » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:25 pm

Velo13 wrote:Additionally, stress relieve the wheel frequently during the "re-build". There are lots of methods to do this, but the only one I feel works well is:

1. Take the wheel out of the stand.
2. Place it axle down on the top of a carpet square/block of soft timber/anything that's a bit squishy to ensure that the axle end doesn't get marked. I do this on the floor on a carpet square, some do it on a table.
3. Place hands at 9 and 3 o'clock and lean on the rim with a fair bit of body weight (ie lots, with a reasonably tensioned 700c wheel it is possible to use my full 82kgs to do this), forcing all of the pressure through the axle.
4. Rotate rim 10-15degrees and repeat 3 (until you stop hearing the spokes unwinding - usually 6-10 times covered the wheel).
5. Turn the wheel over and do the other side following steps 2 - 4.

In a build, I usually do this 6-10 times. Increasing the "load" as the tension in the wheel increases.


Any risk of bearing damage loading up that way on the side? I guess a block with a hole drilled out would alleviate that worry.

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biker jk
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Re: Wheel building

Postby biker jk » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:29 pm

Crawf wrote:
Velo13 wrote:Additionally, stress relieve the wheel frequently during the "re-build". There are lots of methods to do this, but the only one I feel works well is:

1. Take the wheel out of the stand.
2. Place it axle down on the top of a carpet square/block of soft timber/anything that's a bit squishy to ensure that the axle end doesn't get marked. I do this on the floor on a carpet square, some do it on a table.
3. Place hands at 9 and 3 o'clock and lean on the rim with a fair bit of body weight (ie lots, with a reasonably tensioned 700c wheel it is possible to use my full 82kgs to do this), forcing all of the pressure through the axle.
4. Rotate rim 10-15degrees and repeat 3 (until you stop hearing the spokes unwinding - usually 6-10 times covered the wheel).
5. Turn the wheel over and do the other side following steps 2 - 4.

In a build, I usually do this 6-10 times. Increasing the "load" as the tension in the wheel increases.


Any risk of bearing damage loading up that way on the side? I guess a block with a hole drilled out would alleviate that worry.


I wear leather gloves and squeeze parallel spokes quite hard. Seems to work well.

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Duck!
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Duck! » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:41 pm

Crawf wrote:
Velo13 wrote:Additionally, stress relieve the wheel frequently during the "re-build". There are lots of methods to do this, but the only one I feel works well is:

1. Take the wheel out of the stand.
2. Place it axle down on the top of a carpet square/block of soft timber/anything that's a bit squishy to ensure that the axle end doesn't get marked. I do this on the floor on a carpet square, some do it on a table.
3. Place hands at 9 and 3 o'clock and lean on the rim with a fair bit of body weight (ie lots, with a reasonably tensioned 700c wheel it is possible to use my full 82kgs to do this), forcing all of the pressure through the axle.
4. Rotate rim 10-15degrees and repeat 3 (until you stop hearing the spokes unwinding - usually 6-10 times covered the wheel).
5. Turn the wheel over and do the other side following steps 2 - 4.

In a build, I usually do this 6-10 times. Increasing the "load" as the tension in the wheel increases.


Any risk of bearing damage loading up that way on the side? I guess a block with a hole drilled out would alleviate that worry.

No more than actually riding the things.

Another technique I use a lot is to brace the rim in the crook of your hips, hold it with both hands at 12 o'clock, with your elbows at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock. Pull up with your hands and press down with your elbows, working around the wheel, then flip over and repeat with the other side.

You can also apply simple radial compression; stand the wheel upright and apply your bodyweight directly downward, working around the wheel. This method is best suited to shallow-section rims which have a decent amount of give in them. Deep section rims have too much radial stiffness for this to work effectively.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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queequeg
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Re: Wheel building

Postby queequeg » Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:14 am

biker jk wrote:
Crawf wrote:
Velo13 wrote:Additionally, stress relieve the wheel frequently during the "re-build". There are lots of methods to do this, but the only one I feel works well is:

1. Take the wheel out of the stand.
2. Place it axle down on the top of a carpet square/block of soft timber/anything that's a bit squishy to ensure that the axle end doesn't get marked. I do this on the floor on a carpet square, some do it on a table.
3. Place hands at 9 and 3 o'clock and lean on the rim with a fair bit of body weight (ie lots, with a reasonably tensioned 700c wheel it is possible to use my full 82kgs to do this), forcing all of the pressure through the axle.
4. Rotate rim 10-15degrees and repeat 3 (until you stop hearing the spokes unwinding - usually 6-10 times covered the wheel).
5. Turn the wheel over and do the other side following steps 2 - 4.

In a build, I usually do this 6-10 times. Increasing the "load" as the tension in the wheel increases.


Any risk of bearing damage loading up that way on the side? I guess a block with a hole drilled out would alleviate that worry.


I wear leather gloves and squeeze parallel spokes quite hard. Seems to work well.


+1

By doing this you won't get the "Ping Ping ping" noise the first time you ride the bike, which is usually a sign the wheels weren't stress relieved.
'11 Lynskey Cooper CX, '00 Hillbrick Steel Racing (Total Rebuild '10), '15 Cervelo S5

jasonc
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Re: Wheel building

Postby jasonc » Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:42 pm

ok. new rim coming for my rear wheel. different length spokes required. good news is I know the length

this is the info I have:

NDS: Length: 278 DT Gauge: AverageTension: 1200‐1600
DS: Length: 276 DT Gauge: 80‐100Tension: 1200‐1600
2 Cross x 24 3.2 Aero

Being just over 80kgs I want strong. It's going on a 30mm deep rim so am hoping it to be a little stiffer than the original. What spokes would you guys recommend?

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biker jk
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Re: Wheel building

Postby biker jk » Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:02 pm

jasonc wrote:ok. new rim coming for my rear wheel. different length spokes required. good news is I know the length

this is the info I have:

NDS: Length: 278 DT Gauge: AverageTension: 1200‐1600
DS: Length: 276 DT Gauge: 80‐100Tension: 1200‐1600
2 Cross x 24 3.2 Aero

Being just over 80kgs I want strong. It's going on a 30mm deep rim so am hoping it to be a little stiffer than the original. What spokes would you guys recommend?


That looks like a Pro-Lite Como rear wheel?

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Velo13
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Velo13 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:31 pm

Thicker spokes = stiffer wheel*.

Choose from the DT or Sapim ranges, and you can't go wrong.

*Unless you want to go with a CX-Ray which has a more dense metallurgy, and are stiff and light. That said, they are also very expensive.

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Re: Wheel building

Postby jasonc » Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:05 pm

biker jk wrote:
jasonc wrote:ok. new rim coming for my rear wheel. different length spokes required. good news is I know the length

this is the info I have:

NDS: Length: 278 DT Gauge: AverageTension: 1200‐1600
DS: Length: 276 DT Gauge: 80‐100Tension: 1200‐1600
2 Cross x 24 3.2 Aero

Being just over 80kgs I want strong. It's going on a 30mm deep rim so am hoping it to be a little stiffer than the original. What spokes would you guys recommend?


That looks like a Pro-Lite Como rear wheel?


bracciano hub, merano rim

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Re: Wheel building

Postby jacks1071 » Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:55 pm

jasonc wrote:
bracciano hub, merano rim


aka "stelvio"
Our Website is: http://www.kotavelo.com.au Find us on Facebook by searching for "Kotavelo"

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biker jk
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Re: Wheel building

Postby biker jk » Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:18 pm

jasonc wrote:ok. new rim coming for my rear wheel. different length spokes required. good news is I know the length

this is the info I have:

NDS: Length: 278 DT Gauge: AverageTension: 1200‐1600
DS: Length: 276 DT Gauge: 80‐100Tension: 1200‐1600
2 Cross x 24 3.2 Aero

Being just over 80kgs I want strong. It's going on a 30mm deep rim so am hoping it to be a little stiffer than the original. What spokes would you guys recommend?


DT Alpine III. Sapim Strong.

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Re: Wheel building

Postby jasonc » Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:23 pm

biker jk wrote:
jasonc wrote:ok. new rim coming for my rear wheel. different length spokes required. good news is I know the length

this is the info I have:

NDS: Length: 278 DT Gauge: AverageTension: 1200‐1600
DS: Length: 276 DT Gauge: 80‐100Tension: 1200‐1600
2 Cross x 24 3.2 Aero

Being just over 80kgs I want strong. It's going on a 30mm deep rim so am hoping it to be a little stiffer than the original. What spokes would you guys recommend?


DT Alpine III. Sapim Strong.


what's the currect recommended place to purchase?

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biker jk
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Re: Wheel building

Postby biker jk » Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:56 pm

jasonc wrote:
biker jk wrote:
jasonc wrote:ok. new rim coming for my rear wheel. different length spokes required. good news is I know the length

this is the info I have:

NDS: Length: 278 DT Gauge: AverageTension: 1200‐1600
DS: Length: 276 DT Gauge: 80‐100Tension: 1200‐1600
2 Cross x 24 3.2 Aero

Being just over 80kgs I want strong. It's going on a 30mm deep rim so am hoping it to be a little stiffer than the original. What spokes would you guys recommend?


DT Alpine III. Sapim Strong.


what's the currect recommended place to purchase?


Just do a Google search. There are many online shops that sell them. Note that the spoke thickness at the bend is 2.34mm for the DT and 2.3mm for the Sapim so make sure your Bracciano hub spoke holes are wide enough. I assume you have used a spoke calculator with the correct ERD of the rim and hub dimensions.

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Re: Wheel building

Postby Mark Kelly » Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:34 pm

Velo13 wrote:Unless you want to go with a CX-Ray which has a more dense metallurgy, and are stiff and light. That said, they are also very expensive.


That's quite wrong. CX Rays are jast as flexible as any other spoke of equivalent cross section (eg any 1.5mm round spoke).

No metallurgical influence changes the modulus of stainless, it stays around 200 GPa.

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Re: Wheel building

Postby Velo13 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:22 pm

Mark Kelly wrote:CX Rays are jast as flexible as any other spoke of equivalent cross section (eg any 1.5mm round spoke).


Yes Mark, I believe you are quite right about the stiffness.

However (dependent on specification) CX-Rays often have shorter butted sections and in this case will be lighter than (say) a Laser. It's really a moot point though, because the reduction in weight is tiny.

Sapim market the CX-Ray as being made from a "special alloy". Do you believe it's all the same steel used across the range?

A Sapim rep justified the high cost of CX-Rays to me as being due to this "special alloy" and a "forging like" process to "compress" the spoke steel into the aero shape. The website also seems to indicate this, but I certainly don't believe everything I read on the internet ....

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Re: Wheel building

Postby Duck! » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:05 pm

Whatever the mucketing guff says, I don't particularly like CX Rays. They're too stretchy, and that affects the stiffness of the build. You do need some elasticity in order to absorb road vibrations and not shake the wheels apart, and thinner gauge spokes are inherently more elastic than heavier ones, but Sapim go too far with it.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Wheel building

Postby Mark Kelly » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:26 pm

Velo13 wrote: Do you believe it's all the same steel used across the range?


If they say they are using a different alloy on the CX Rays I'm happy to accept that. My point was that no matter what alloy it is, its stiffness per unit weight is the same as the other alloys (within the range of austenitic steels). The CX-ray is a very light spoke, therefore it is correspondingly "stretchy", as someone above put it.

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familyguy
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Re: Wheel building

Postby familyguy » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:36 pm

Does anyone have a reference image of a 32H 2x NDS/3x DS rear wheel?? My spokes at the valve are not running parallel and I'm stuffed if I can tell why not.

Jim

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warthog1
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Wheel building

Postby warthog1 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:23 pm

Shitzen I would like to be able to build wheels but I fear I lack the ability and patience.
I'll have to keep reading about it. It's a good read anyway. Nice work fellas. :)

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Duck!
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Duck! » Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:28 am

familyguy wrote:Does anyone have a reference image of a 32H 2x NDS/3x DS rear wheel?? My spokes at the valve are not running parallel and I'm stuffed if I can tell why not.

Jim

With a different lacing pattern on each side, the rim-hub angle the spokes take will be different. I don't have a pic, but imagine this.... Start with a direct line from the valve to the hub flange, centred between two spoke holes. On your 3x side, the lead spoke immediately to the left of the valve will seat in the 4th hole to the left of the centre line. Flip over to the 2x side and repeat, but this time your lead spoke will seat in the 3rd hole around to the left of centre. So your two lead spokes are converging slightly toward the hub.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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familyguy
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Re: Wheel building

Postby familyguy » Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:47 am

Cheers Duck. I'll save/print that info. I'm not revisiting this until tomorrow night once I've caught up on my sleep* and won't make mistakes.

Jim

* Sleep deprivation bought to you by the Australian Open.

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familyguy
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Re: Wheel building

Postby familyguy » Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:05 am

Done!

Image

2X NDS, 3X DS. Nice parallel pair to valve hole (at top). V. happy.

Jim

insightt47
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Re: Wheel building

Postby insightt47 » Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:01 am

Im trying to build a laterally stiff wheelset for about $1000 Aus

So far ive come up with
Front Hub: Alchemy ELF 24 hole
Rear Hub: Alchemy ORC UL 28 hole
Spokes: Sapim Cxray
Rims: H Plus Son Archetype???

Any opinions on some good rims? I like the look of the H PLus Son but im not sure about their stiffness or durability. Other rims i have in mind are Placenti sl23, velocity A23 and hed c2 belgium?

Or I might just go the simple route and get some ROL Dehuez 24/28 http://www.rolwheels.com/wheels/wheel/dhuez-24-28
Last edited by insightt47 on Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:35 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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