Volagi Liscio (Gen 2) build thread

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Re: Volagi Liscio (Gen 2) build thread

Postby MichaelB » Thu May 09, 2013 9:58 am

eeksll wrote:
MichaelB wrote:Guards are to do a job when it rains :roll: , but since they have been on its been a bit dry .....


yeah, to keep the rain away. I put mine on my commuter and it hasn't rained once ... not that I am complaining :mrgreen:


Amen to that !

Mind you, its been a bit dry and the water bill for the garden is a bit :shock:
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by BNA » Tue May 14, 2013 1:49 pm

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Re: Volagi Liscio (Gen 2) build thread

Postby hannos » Tue May 14, 2013 1:49 pm

My god that is one UGLY looking bike MichaelB.
I suggest you give it to me so you aren't seen riding something so awful!

:twisted:
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Re: Volagi Liscio (Gen 2) build thread

Postby boyracer » Tue May 14, 2013 3:27 pm

You got your wish MB...How'd the guards cope this morn?
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Re: Volagi Liscio (Gen 2) build thread

Postby MichaelB » Tue May 14, 2013 3:49 pm

hannos wrote:My god that is one UGLY looking bike MichaelB.
I suggest you give it to me so you aren't seen riding something so awful!

:twisted:



You know what, you are right. It's hideous. Gimme your address and I'll even pay the postage to get it there overnight .......


boyracer wrote:You got your wish MB...How'd the guards cope this morn?


Will find out tonight when I get out on the roads about 6pm or so ..... Crikey it's a bit of a chnage frpom last week .... :roll:
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Re: Volagi Liscio (Gen 2) build thread

Postby eeksll » Wed May 15, 2013 11:43 am

MichaelB wrote:
eeksll wrote:
MichaelB wrote:Guards are to do a job when it rains :roll: , but since they have been on its been a bit dry .....


yeah, to keep the rain away. I put mine on my commuter and it hasn't rained once ... not that I am complaining :mrgreen:


Amen to that !

Mind you, its been a bit dry and the water bill for the garden is a bit :shock:


sigh ... I had to say it didn't I. I know my rain jacket isn't waterproof anymore.
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Re: Volagi Liscio (Gen 2) build thread

Postby MichaelB » Wed May 15, 2013 1:54 pm

eeksll wrote: sigh ... I had to say it didn't I. I know my rain jacket isn't waterproof anymore.


Uni got in the way for me last night, so no riding till Friday when I do my commute :(

The brake upgrade is gaining momentum though. Stay tuned :wink:
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Re: Volagi Liscio (Gen 2) build thread

Postby MichaelB » Wed May 22, 2013 6:38 am

Ahhhh, to have discs and mudguards :P

Last nights ride up Mt Osmond was great. Balmy conditions going up, and then rain going down and the rest of the way home. A good example of why disc brakes are a good thing on a road bike (the descent of Mt Osmond is short but steep with lots of corners), and proper mudguards to stop getting covered in crap !!

LOVE IT :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


Next step is to try some different pads to see if I can make the braking a bit better/different.

Also have other evil thoughts re a brake upgrade, but it's proving harder than I thought :|
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Re: Volagi Liscio (Gen 2) build thread

Postby MichaelB » Fri May 31, 2013 10:48 am

Waiting on a new set of pads to try for the TRP calipers - ordered some Jagwire pads to try, just to see what an alternative to the std TRP pads is.


Also, the next, even more important upgrade order was placed, and the parts have been posted from the land of Blighty. Stay tuned as the project progresses .. :D
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Re: Volagi Liscio (Gen 2) build thread

Postby MichaelB » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:13 am

Hmmmm, look at what the postie just brought me :mrgreen:

Image

Two of 'em even !!!
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Re: Volagi Liscio (Gen 2) build thread

Postby cobba » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:33 pm

Will attaching the Avid XO Trail to the TRP Parabox be an experiment or has someone else done this ?
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Re: Volagi Liscio (Gen 2) build thread

Postby MichaelB » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:45 pm

cobba wrote:Will attaching the Avid XO Trail to the TRP Parabox be an experiment or has someone else done this ?


An experiment in many ways.

Have done loooooooooooooooooots of background detective work to work out what is required.

Seals that work with mineral oil is the current roadblock .....
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Re: Volagi Liscio (Gen 2) build thread

Postby cobba » Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:52 pm

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Re: Volagi Liscio (Gen 2) build thread

Postby MichaelB » Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:09 pm

cobba wrote:Maybe you might be able to get away with the seals that are currently on it.

http://forums.mtbr.com/brake-time/switching-between-mineral-synthetic-oil-rainy-day-no-tl%3Bdr-no-chlamydibrah-858689.html


Hmmm., interesting. Will have to read on a big screen later tonight.
hanks, I'll let you know later :D




I will be honest from the start, haven't read the thread (on MTBR) fully yet, but think that the OP is on the wrong track.

My understanding (and I'm happy to be proved wrong) is that the seal material used in the two systems DOT 3/4/5.1 and Mineral oil, are different (EPDM and Nitrile) and are NOT compatible.

This is based on feedback from seal suppliers and the following web pages

[url="http://www.goodyearrubberproducts.com/files/Dixon/DixonPerfectingCatalog/DixonPerfectingCatalog1.Page011.pdf"]http://www.goodyearrubberproducts.com/files/Dixon/DixonPerfectingCatalog/DixonPerfectingCatalog1.Page011.pdf[/url]

Petroleum based hyd oils need Nitrile seals, and Non-Petroleum Brake fluids need EPDM

and

Rubber Compounds of O-Rings - Viton, Neoprene, EPDM, Nitrile

Confirmed here

So whilst I'd love the opposite to be true, I don't think it is.

My wish for it to be true is adapting some Avid calipers (DOT 5.1) to a mineral oil based master cyder (TRP Parabox).

If I'm wrong, please let me know where !!!
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Re: Volagi Liscio (Gen 2) build thread

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:52 pm

If you can't make them work Michael... :wink:

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Re: Volagi Liscio (Gen 2) build thread

Postby MichaelB » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:40 am

Mulger bill wrote:If you can't make them work Michael... :wink:

Shaun



Oh, I'll make them work .... :wink:

As thought, the seal issue is one that I need to chnage, but thanks for the thread link cobba, as it gave me some other useful information :D
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Re: Volagi Liscio (Gen 2) build thread

Postby MichaelB » Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:55 am

Well, the bad news is that there are no OTS seals from the one supplier that I tried, but will try another one next week. The seal size is pretty small, and not really industrial dimensions. i can find some with the right ID, but the OD is waaaay bigger.

So I've gone to plan B. The Plan B parts have been ordered and already dispatched.

In the meantime, I've received the Jagwire semi metallic pads for the parabox setup, installed them last night, and will go for a ride later today to bed them in.
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Re: Volagi Liscio (Gen 2) build thread

Postby cobba » Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:52 pm

Would a Zee/Saint caliper work?

Zee/Saint calipers have 16 & 18mm pistons
XT calipers have 22mm pistons.
Zee/Saint calipers work with XT levers.

TRP has 21mm pistons

Avid XO Trail calipers have has 14 & 16mm pistons
Avid Code calipers have 15 & 16mm pistons
Avid Elixir calipers have 21mm pistons
Avid Juicy calipers have 20mm pistons
Code calipers work with Elixir levers
Code calipers work with Juicy levers
Elixir calipers work with Juicy levers

Looking at the specs of the Trickstuff Doppelmoppel and seeing how Avid calipers work with a variety of Avid levers, it would probably work with the Avid XO Trail caliper.

http://www.trickstuff.de/en/products/Doppelmoppel.php

The compatibility specs of the Doppelmoppel make it sound like a Zee/Saint caliper would work with TRP master cylinder.
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Re: Volagi Liscio (Gen 2) build thread

Postby MichaelB » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:59 pm

Hi cobba,

You are partly correct. Thanks for some of the piston sizes, I already had some of them.

The TRP that I have (2011 version) has 21 & 19mm pistons driven by 10 & 9.5mm master cylinders, where the 2012 version has 21mm pistons F&R with dual 10mm master cylinders.

The Avid X0 trail calipers were the closest in terms of matching the ratio correctly. The Saint calipers would have given a much bigger piston area and hence a mushier lever.

I had a look at a lot of calipers - trust me :D

I was after a combination of better pad area and matching piston sizes.

I had forgotten about the doppelmoppel, but when you look at the cost of $380 + shipping, it's as expensive as the Plan B option (to be revealed later !!!) that I took and that option includes calipers as well. I may still get the custom seals (will check on Monday), but enjoying playing around.

In the end, I'm wasting money, but enjoying it and the challenge.


On a separate note, the new pads that I put in are good, and so far on a flattish ride, about 10 - 20% better than the stock TRP Resin pads :mrgreen:
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Re: Volagi Liscio (Gen 2) build thread

Postby MichaelB » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:05 am

Looks like I owe cobba a HUGE thanks.

He supplied a potential contact and managed to find some seals that will be made at $3 a pop :D :D :D

Ordered 3 sets this morning, and they should be done today and receive them tomorrow :shock: :D

I'll post up the company details and results when I get them.

May have to return Plan B when it arrives for a refund ...... :oops:
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Re: Volagi Liscio (Gen 2) build thread

Postby barefoot » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:38 am

Seems like you're set on using mineral oil.

It's your call, but I reckon DOT brake fluids are a better system. They were developed specifically for the task of hydraulic braking, to overcome the failings of early oil-based systems.

Specifically, glycol fluids are designed to be water soluble, so any water that finds its way into the brake system will dissolve into the hydraulic fluid. With an oil system, water is insoluble and usually heavier than the oil, and over time, the water will collect at the lowest point of the system - that is, usually, in the caliper.

Yes, the boiling point of oil is astronomically high. But the boiling point of any system is the lowest boiling point of any of the fluids in there. An oil based system will boil when any water in there reaches 100°C.

By dissolving water into the fluid, glycol systems avoid this failure mode. They just reduce the boiling point of the primary fluid slightly.

Now, there are plenty of people out there riding oil-based bike disc brake systems without a problem. And that points to the fact that the hysteria about road disc brakes boiling the fluid is massively overstating the case.

But if there really is any legitimate concern about the boiling point of brake fluid in disc brakes, then using mineral oil is absolutely the wrong solution. Boiling water in mineral oil brake systems is why DOT fluids were invented.

If I was mixing and matching parts and changing seals etc. to standardise on one fluid system over the other, I'd be making everything glycol compatible.

tim
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Re: Volagi Liscio (Gen 2) build thread

Postby MichaelB » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:18 pm

barefoot wrote: ...If I was mixing and matching parts and changing seals etc. to standardise on one fluid system over the other, I'd be making everything glycol compatible.

tim



If it were only that easy. Just getting piston seals (even the dimensions is damned hard !!) is nigh on impossible, let alone the right sized master cyclinder ones. I tried that too .....

It is not just the piston seals, but other o rings, reservoir bladders etc.

Don't disagree with your comments, but note that Shimano quote a MUCH higher boiling point for their mineral oil fluid than even the DOT fluid, so may well switch to that in the near future.

Thanks for the input though, much appreciated :D
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Re: Volagi Liscio (Gen 2) build thread

Postby barefoot » Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:19 pm

MichaelB wrote:Don't disagree with your comments, but note that Shimano quote a MUCH higher boiling point for their mineral oil fluid than even the DOT fluid, so may well switch to that in the near future.


That's what I said.

The oil itself has a very high boiling point.

But any water in there stays as water, and stays with a 100° boiling point. So the system boiling point drops to 100°.

Any water in a glycol system dissolves into the fluid, which has a negligible effect on the BP of the fluid.

It's a "weakest link" scenario. It doesn't matter how strong the strongest link is (or how high the primary fluid's BP is).

tim
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Re: Volagi Liscio (Gen 2) build thread

Postby MichaelB » Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:37 pm

Hi Tim,

OK, got it now, didn't read it properly on the phone. Haven't had too much drama yet, so reckon that in our climate, it's not a real issue. Or is it ????
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Re: Volagi Liscio (Gen 2) build thread

Postby Duck! » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:31 pm

There was an article on one of the bike news sites recently about the heat-management capabilities of the various fluids (it may even have been linked to in this thread). What it basically said is that fluid choice is largely irrelevant; the biggest issue is getting the heat out of the pads to avoid them cooking into a glassy, frictionless block.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.
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Re: Volagi Liscio (Gen 2) build thread

Postby MichaelB » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:29 am

And that is probably going to be one of the other key development areas for road discs - pad materials/compounds that suit the characteristics of braking on road conditions. Big target though. Low speed stops to high speed long alpine descents.
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