How to avoid cassette damaging the free-hub-body?

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How to avoid cassette damaging the free-hub-body?

Postby kimmie » Sat May 04, 2013 9:46 am

Hi guys

N00b question here... I just recently helped a friend removed his cassette from his wheel, and we both were gobsmacked to find these:

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Question:

1. What caused the damages? Was it because the cassette's not tight enough when it was installed, hence 'slipped' and 'ate' the free-hub-body?
2. How 'hard' one should tighten the cassette? I understand it's 40nM... but I don't have a torque wrench that 'big' enough bits to fit the cassette's lock-ring. I only have one of those BBB Torque Wrench... like this one:
Image

Please be patience, especially if you think this is a st00pid question.

Cheers
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by BNA » Sat May 04, 2013 10:24 am

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Re: How to avoid cassette damaging the free-hub-body?

Postby QuangVuong » Sat May 04, 2013 10:24 am

Not tightening enough is one of the causes. THe other would be the alloy body. Get a steel one, or something of better quality.

What cassette do you have? I usually count about 5 clicks on a Shimano cassette and lockring. Otherwise, there are some cassette tools(mine is some cheapo Roswheel), which have an adaptor which allows for a 8mm hex to fit inside, which allows you to use your torque wrench.
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Re: How to avoid cassette damaging the free-hub-body?

Postby }SkOrPn--7 » Sat May 04, 2013 11:00 am

You can't stop that happening on a alloy hub when using cassettes that are individual or are not a complete unit no matter what grade alloy it is or how well heat treated it is. There is a company that makes a sleeve that protects the leading edge of the splines but I will have to dig the web site up I can't think of it's name right this second.

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Re: How to avoid cassette damaging the free-hub-body?

Postby dalai47 » Sat May 04, 2013 11:42 am

}SkOrPn--7 wrote:You can't stop that happening on a alloy hub when using cassettes that are individual or are not a complete unit no matter what grade alloy it is or how well heat treated it is. There is a company that makes a sleeve that protects the leading edge of the splines but I will have to dig the web site up I can't think of it's name right this second.

Ricky


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Re: How to avoid cassette damaging the free-hub-body?

Postby }SkOrPn--7 » Sat May 04, 2013 12:30 pm

Thanks dalai47 you hit the nail and saved me the leg work.

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Re: How to avoid cassette damaging the free-hub-body?

Postby ironhanglider » Sat May 04, 2013 5:31 pm

I have just fitted a SRAM cassette to a mates bike that has 6 of the 9 sprockets attached to the same spider which has a single wide contact point. The smaller cogs are less prone to dig in.

I notice that each cog has worn different cogs which does suggest that the lock ring was too loose allowing movement. Movement speeds up this process dramatically.

Cheers,

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Re: How to avoid cassette damaging the free-hub-body?

Postby queequeg » Sat May 04, 2013 6:23 pm

The other option is to get a steel freehub instead.
All Shimano freehubs are steel or Ti, but alloy hub vs steel sprocket = chewed splines. You need to use a cassette with a single alloy carrier to avoid the problem on an alloy hub.
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Re: How to avoid cassette damaging the free-hub-body?

Postby kimmie » Sun May 05, 2013 7:20 am

Cheers everyone. Will try to get one of those clips... By googling about them last night, they seem not too 'popular', in term of, not many retailer sells them.

Cheers for good advises and comments nevertheless.
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Re: How to avoid cassette damaging the free-hub-body?

Postby Saturnstarzz » Sun May 05, 2013 7:10 pm

Use marine grease on the spline and like quang said tighten four or 5 clicks. Torque wrenche is a good idea you can get ones that fit your lockring tool from any auto store. Hex adapter is a good idea but the BBB torque wont go up 40nm of torque.
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Re: How to avoid cassette damaging the free-hub-body?

Postby petal665 » Mon May 06, 2013 9:46 am

You will need to get an LBS to order them in. Even using the pins, I still get my DT240 freehubs chewed out, but not as badly as without them.
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Re: How to avoid cassette damaging the free-hub-body?

Postby jacks1071 » Mon May 06, 2013 11:52 am

QuangVuong wrote:Not tightening enough is one of the causes. THe other would be the alloy body. Get a steel one, or something of better quality.


Not tightening the cassette lockring to 40Nm the just about the only reason the freehub body will chew up badly, there are few exceptions.

You'll get some marks on them if it is tightened correctly but never excessive or to the point of failure. Also consider that the freehub is a consumable part, there is bearings inside it which few people have the tools to properly replace meaning eventually a new freehub will be required regardless of if its chewed up a little or not.

The spacer someone linked to I guess would probably work, I'd rather just do it up properly thus saving the money, weight and extra effort of sourcing and installing another component.
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Re: How to avoid cassette damaging the free-hub-body?

Postby kimmie » Mon May 06, 2013 2:55 pm

Do I need to get a proper torque wrench for tighten the lock ring? Apparently my BBB Torque Wrench won't do 40nM. If I just buy a 'generic' torque wrench from Bunnings or SuperCheapAuto, what 'number' do I need that will fit the lock ring?
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Re: How to avoid cassette damaging the free-hub-body?

Postby petal665 » Mon May 06, 2013 3:18 pm

Just do it up as tight as you can, 40Nm is VERY tight. Shimano use steel or Ti freehubs because alloy will get chewed up no matter how tight you do up the lockring. Alloy shallow spline freehubs are a poor design, used by after market hub suppliers to be cheap and light. Shimano themselves don't cut corners on their own freehubs.
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Re: How to avoid cassette damaging the free-hub-body?

Postby toolonglegs » Mon May 06, 2013 3:24 pm

Do it tight by hand... Torque wrenches aren't accurate on cassettes anyway due to the ratchet washers.
Plus if your hub is already starting to chew out the cogs will find their way back into the grooves no matter how correctly torqued it is.
Although I suppose some people don't have a good feel for things...if that's you get the torque wrench ;-)
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Re: How to avoid cassette damaging the free-hub-body?

Postby __PG__ » Mon May 06, 2013 5:16 pm

From this thread
__PG__ wrote:The other day I changed cassettes on my Alchemy ORC hubs. This wasn't a straight-forward procedure, but with a some tapping of the cassette against the engagement direction, and some further taps from behind, I managed to remove it.

The cassette had left some marks on the freehub. The cassette (Shimano 8-speed HG50) was tightened to the correct torque specification. I've replaced it with a SRAM 10-speed PG1070 cassette.

I asked Alchemy about the scouring, and any rules of thumbs for maintaining alloy freehub bodies. This was their reply. It contains some very important information
Alchemy wrote:Thanks for contacting me. I'm glad that you like the hubs. Unfortunately, Shimano 10sp cogs are especially hard on all alloy cassette bodies. The reason is that the cogs are thin and Shimano removed 1/3 of the splines on most of the "loose" cogs which exacerbates the problem.

Sram 10sp cassettes are definitely easier on alloy bodies than Shimano cassettes, especially the "red" version. However, the PG-1070 is still much better than the Shimano cogs (if you look closely, you'll notice that all of the cogs have a full complement of 9 splines, and the fit is better).

As for damage, it is unlikely that the "gouging" will cause you any problems. I like to knock the burrs off with a file when I install the new cassette. It is not necessary to put grease on the cassette body itself (although it doesn't hurt other than attracting dirt), but you must put grease on the threads and a little on the underside of the flange of the lock-ring. Many people fail to do this but it is very important. A torque wrench just measures the force you put into the handle and "clicks" when you reach the pre-set value. It does not measure the "clamping pressure" of the threaded assembly. If you install a lockring without any grease, the friction between the mating threads and the flange to cog contact will create a "false" torque reading. In other words, the point of a torque specification is to reach a desired clamping force. But, if the assembly is dry, the torque setting is reached before the assembly is adequately clamped (due to friction).

A very good point, and I admit that I've never greased the threads of my lockring. It's a bit of a blind-side for me, as of course you'd do it for other areas of the bike which require high torque (e.g. pedals, bottom brackets etc).
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Re: How to avoid cassette damaging the free-hub-body?

Postby petal665 » Tue May 07, 2013 1:52 pm

Interestingly, the Dura-ace 9000 cassette has all the splines on all the cogs.
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Re: How to avoid cassette damaging the free-hub-body?

Postby kimmie » Tue May 07, 2013 2:31 pm

petal665 wrote:Interestingly, the Dura-ace 9000 cassette has all the splines on all the cogs.


Is that mean the DA9000 cassette will not 'eat' an alloy freehub body?
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Re: How to avoid cassette damaging the free-hub-body?

Postby petal665 » Tue May 07, 2013 2:37 pm

It does not. Low profile alloy freehubs are still a sh*t design. It shouldn't be as bad though.
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Re: How to avoid cassette damaging the free-hub-body?

Postby jacks1071 » Tue May 07, 2013 9:19 pm

kimmie wrote:Do I need to get a proper torque wrench for tighten the lock ring? Apparently my BBB Torque Wrench won't do 40nM. If I just buy a 'generic' torque wrench from Bunnings or SuperCheapAuto, what 'number' do I need that will fit the lock ring?


You'll need a big boy torque wrench. Probably Super Cheap Auto or Repco would be your lowest price. Also handy for checking the wheel nuts on your car after its been serviced.

My lockring tool requires a 1/2" bit, maybe take the lockring socket with you to ensure you buy the right size torque wrench.
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Re: How to avoid cassette damaging the free-hub-body?

Postby kimmie » Wed May 08, 2013 9:26 am

I am thinking to buy one of these...

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/130746502327?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

but I do need a 'bit' that goes in between that 'thing' (the torque wrench) and my 'lock ring', don't I? Will something like this (below link) works?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CASSETTE-LOCKRING-TOOL-w-GUIDE-PIN-Shimano-SRAM-Center-Lock-Disc-Brakes-Bike-/171002692065?pt=AU_Cycling_New_&hash=item27d08e01e1&_uhb=1

I tried to find out what the 'end' of that last bit from eBay look like, but couldn't find anything. Can anyone who has one of those confirm if it has a square opening that will fit the 'torque wrench'?




jacks1071 wrote:
kimmie wrote:Do I need to get a proper torque wrench for tighten the lock ring? Apparently my BBB Torque Wrench won't do 40nM. If I just buy a 'generic' torque wrench from Bunnings or SuperCheapAuto, what 'number' do I need that will fit the lock ring?


You'll need a big boy torque wrench. Probably Super Cheap Auto or Repco would be your lowest price. Also handy for checking the wheel nuts on your car after its been serviced.

My lockring tool requires a 1/2" bit, maybe take the lockring socket with you to ensure you buy the right size torque wrench.
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Re: How to avoid cassette damaging the free-hub-body?

Postby kimmie » Wed May 08, 2013 9:34 am

I feel like complete n00b here...

basically I need a 'lockring tool' that will attach to the 'head' of the torque wrench, like this one:
Image

anyone can share some information?

Cheers


kimmie wrote:I am thinking to buy one of these...

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/130746502327?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

but I do need a 'bit' that goes in between that 'thing' (the torque wrench) and my 'lock ring', don't I? Will something like this (below link) works?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CASSETTE-LOCKRING-TOOL-w-GUIDE-PIN-Shimano-SRAM-Center-Lock-Disc-Brakes-Bike-/171002692065?pt=AU_Cycling_New_&hash=item27d08e01e1&_uhb=1

I tried to find out what the 'end' of that last bit from eBay look like, but couldn't find anything. Can anyone who has one of those confirm if it has a square opening that will fit the 'torque wrench'?




jacks1071 wrote:
kimmie wrote:Do I need to get a proper torque wrench for tighten the lock ring? Apparently my BBB Torque Wrench won't do 40nM. If I just buy a 'generic' torque wrench from Bunnings or SuperCheapAuto, what 'number' do I need that will fit the lock ring?


You'll need a big boy torque wrench. Probably Super Cheap Auto or Repco would be your lowest price. Also handy for checking the wheel nuts on your car after its been serviced.

My lockring tool requires a 1/2" bit, maybe take the lockring socket with you to ensure you buy the right size torque wrench.
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Re: How to avoid cassette damaging the free-hub-body?

Postby queequeg » Wed May 08, 2013 10:03 am

kimmie wrote:I feel like complete n00b here...

basically I need a 'lockring tool' that will attach to the 'head' of the torque wrench, like this one:
Image

anyone can share some information?

Cheers


kimmie wrote:I am thinking to buy one of these...

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/130746502327?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

but I do need a 'bit' that goes in between that 'thing' (the torque wrench) and my 'lock ring', don't I? Will something like this (below link) works?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CASSETTE-LOCKRING-TOOL-w-GUIDE-PIN-Shimano-SRAM-Center-Lock-Disc-Brakes-Bike-/171002692065?pt=AU_Cycling_New_&hash=item27d08e01e1&_uhb=1

I tried to find out what the 'end' of that last bit from eBay look like, but couldn't find anything. Can anyone who has one of those confirm if it has a square opening that will fit the 'torque wrench'?


Most lock ring tools are designed to be used with a spanner or socket wrench, so all you need is a socket of the appropriate size to go on your torque wrench.
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Re: How to avoid cassette damaging the free-hub-body?

Postby silentbutdeadly » Wed May 08, 2013 10:15 am

My lockring tool fits in a 22mm socket which fits my 1/2" drive torque wrench...
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Re: How to avoid cassette damaging the free-hub-body?

Postby kimmie » Wed May 08, 2013 10:36 am

thanks guys.. really appreciate your replies.
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