Wheelbuild spoke selection

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Wheelbuild spoke selection

Postby familyguy » Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:50 pm

Looking at a rebuild of a set of fixed/fixed track hubs into some Ukai rims for a better look/nicer wheel than my pink deep V's.

I know the two major players as far as quality spokes are Wheelsmith and DT, but does anyone know about these Pillar guys?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Pillar-PSR-T ... c1c&_uhb=1

I would be willing to up-budget to DT's, but it'd take another few weeks before I could even think about ordering anything.

Pro? Con?

Jim
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by BNA » Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:05 pm

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Re: Wheelbuild spoke selection

Postby ironhanglider » Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:05 pm

You left off two of the other major players. Sapim and Pillar.

Pillar as far as I know are based in Taiwan and their spokes appear on a lot of wheels that are assembled there.

I don't see any reason to think that that these will be any different to eg. DT Alpine III, and Sapim Force.

Despite the marketing, the wire used to make stainless steel spokes is almost identical.

Triple butted spokes are generally a good thing, they are a tight fit in the holes so it is best to lace the wheels with the 'heads-in' spokes inserted last to give you the most wiggle room.

Sheldon Brown wrote:Triple-butted spokes, such as the DT Alpine III, are the best choice when durability and reliability is the primary aim, as with tandems and bicycles for loaded touring. They share the advantages of single-butted and double-butted spokes. The DT Alpine III, for instance, is 2.34 mm (13 gauge) at the head, 1.8 mm (15 gauge) in the middle, and 2.0 mm (14 gauge) at the threaded end.
Single- and triple-butted spokes solve one of the great problems of wheel design: Since spokes use rolled, not cut threads, the outside diameter of the threads is larger than the base diameter of the spoke wire. Since the holes in the hub flanges must be large enough for the threads to fit through, the holes, in turn, are larger than the wire requires. This is undesirable, because a tight match between the spoke diameter at the elbow and the diameter of the flange hole is crucial to resisting fatigue-related breakage.

Since single- and triple-butted spokes are thicker at the head end than at the thread end, they may be used with hubs that have holes just large enough to pass the thick wire at the head end.


Cheers,

Cameron
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Re: Wheelbuild spoke selection

Postby familyguy » Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:22 pm

Yeah, I forgot Sapim. I've not noticed the Pillar name, apart from the ones I'm looking at just now: http://www.pillarspoke.com/p02-4_psr_triple_butted.htm# (model PSR TB 2018).

I might de-lace the front and measure the spoke holes a little more accurately before I pull the trigger on those ones. I dont want to order 72 of them and find they wont fit through the flange. Nothing a little judicial filing wont fix, but I'd rather not if I could avoid it.

Jim
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Re: Wheelbuild spoke selection

Postby ironhanglider » Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:39 pm

familyguy wrote:Yeah, I forgot Sapim. I've not noticed the Pillar name, apart from the ones I'm looking at just now: http://www.pillarspoke.com/p02-4_psr_triple_butted.htm# (model PSR TB 2018).

I might de-lace the front and measure the spoke holes a little more accurately before I pull the trigger on those ones. I dont want to order 72 of them and find they wont fit through the flange. Nothing a little judicial filing wont fix, but I'd rather not if I could avoid it.

Jim


If someone is selling good pre-built wheels and they don't advertise the brand of spokes then it is a fairly safe bet that they are Pillar.

It might be easier to measure the thread width of your spokes, since you know they fit through. I'd be astounded if the holes weren't at least 2.3mm.

Cheers,

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Re: Wheelbuild spoke selection

Postby spirito » Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:34 pm

familyguy wrote: I dont want to order 72 of them and find they wont fit through the flange. Nothing a little judicial filing wont fix, but I'd rather not if I could avoid it.


as Mr. hang glider pointed out the spoke holes are usually a little bigger especially if used. And even if not it's not too tricky to open them up a little bit. Below is a pic of some NOS hubs from the 50's that I drilled and chamfered for modern spoke gauge sizes. If your hubs show a lot of spoke pull might be a good idea to do similar just to get them round and even again.

Image
Cranky Jim wrote: God did not invent gears. Men invented gears ... because we are not gods.
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Re: Wheelbuild spoke selection

Postby familyguy » Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:26 am

Front unlaced, measurements double checked, ordering today. Somewhat looking forward to my first wheel build. 8)

Jim
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Re: Wheelbuild spoke selection

Postby MichaelB » Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:05 am

Used pillar bladed spokes for my Volagi wheels , and they worked really well.
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Re: Wheelbuild spoke selection

Postby Mozzar » Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:25 pm

The best spokes by far are either Mach 1 or DT/Wheelsmith. Not to many people know but DT and Wheelsmith are exactly the same company.
I have hardly had any DT or Mach 1 spokes break before and are pretty much the strongest spokes. Lots of people call Sapim spokes snapim as that's pritty much what they'll do after a while. I'd stick with DT or Mach 1 for strength.
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Re: Wheelbuild spoke selection

Postby Crawf » Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:15 pm

Have used DT, Pillar & CN. The quality reflects that order also.
I still tend to use the latter two simply due to cost, have never had any performance issues, durability has always been equal between the three, but they do have crappier threads and cut off.
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Re: Wheelbuild spoke selection

Postby familyguy » Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:19 pm

Works, meet spanner. Sort of.

Brick Lane have replied to my query regarding radial fronts in the affirmative. May look at a radial head in lace on that one now. Going onto a Ukai 25c box section, eyeletted. Main concern is the rim, especially given it will be doing some braking.

Jim
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Re: Wheelbuild spoke selection

Postby Dan » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:22 pm

Radial lacing to an eyeletted rim shouldn't be an issue, Jim, if that's your concern. I'd imagine the pads treat the rims in the same fashion regardless of lacing.

BTW, I'm using DT Swiss Revolutions for my upcoming Ambrosio build (whenever my irish hubs arrive)...
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Re: Wheelbuild spoke selection

Postby familyguy » Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:22 pm

So put the rear wheel together. I was 2 spokes short (package contained 34 not 36, the others are in transit), but got them all in pretty easy. I used Sheldon's wheel building page as my resource cause it was a simple pattern. Front is going to be radial when I can source the right length spokes. Triple butted Pillar spokes, 12mm brass nipples to Ukai 700x25c and Brick Lane sealed fixed/fixed high flange hub.

Key spoke and initial trailing spokes (after testing and shifting the four spokes I'd placed four holes over to get the valve hole over the makers name):

Image

And....done, except the last two spokes:

Image

And proof I got the valve hole in the right spot:

Image

Jim
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Re: Wheelbuild spoke selection

Postby Duck! » Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:36 pm

Quick tip for when you get to doing the front. First spoke, centre the hub logo & lace the spoke to the immediate left of the valve hole. Next spoke directly opposite, then flip the wheel over & lace in an opposing pair at right angles to the first pair. That will stabilise the hub, then you can just go around & lace the rest in. :)
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.
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Re: Wheelbuild spoke selection

Postby familyguy » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:09 pm

Duck! wrote:Quick tip for when you get to doing the front. First spoke, centre the hub logo & lace the spoke to the immediate left of the valve hole. Next spoke directly opposite, then flip the wheel over & lace in an opposing pair at right angles to the first pair. That will stabilise the hub, then you can just go around & lace the rest in. :)


Neat solution. I didn't want to get too advanced beyond Wheels 101 just yet. Radial front should be easier.

Jim
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Re: Wheelbuild spoke selection

Postby queequeg » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:03 pm

familyguy wrote:
Duck! wrote:Quick tip for when you get to doing the front. First spoke, centre the hub logo & lace the spoke to the immediate left of the valve hole. Next spoke directly opposite, then flip the wheel over & lace in an opposing pair at right angles to the first pair. That will stabilise the hub, then you can just go around & lace the rest in. :)


Neat solution. I didn't want to get too advanced beyond Wheels 101 just yet. Radial front should be easier.

Jim


Roger Musson shows a simple technique for aligning the valve hole with the hub logo based on your cross pattern. Sadly, he tells you this at the end of the book, not at the start where it is useful.
I am waiting for some spare time to build up my new wheels.
When I order spokes I always get extra of each length, so for a 36 spoke wheel I buy 4 extra spokes (2 of each length).
I recently threw the chain into my rear wheel and destroyed 9 spokes, so I was lucky to have the spokes from my old wheels, as I did not have enough new spares.
I have learned that as a commuter I need to have all consumables/breakables as spare parts on hand, including wheels. As I use up my spares, I order new stock so that I can keep the bike on the road all the time.
'11 Lynskey Cooper CX, '00 Hillbrick Steel Racing (Total Rebuild '10), '09 Electra Townie Original 21D
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Re: Wheelbuild spoke selection

Postby Duck! » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:52 pm

Gerd Schraner also poses a simple method of aligning the logo, as well as setting the foundation for each run of spokes in his book.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.
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Re: Wheelbuild spoke selection

Postby familyguy » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:14 pm

One custom-made dishing tool later:
Image

:lol:

Jim
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Re: Wheelbuild spoke selection

Postby ironhanglider » Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:12 pm

8)

Looks like a good pair of wheels to me.

Cheers,

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Re: Wheelbuild spoke selection

Postby familyguy » Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:18 pm

Question for the techs:

Noticed last night the spoke angle coming out of the rim seemed a little sharp. Closer inspection (with verniers) reveals the eyelets are offset by less than 1mm to either side. Naturally I've laced them to the opposite side, haven't I...

Problem?

Jim
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Re: Wheelbuild spoke selection

Postby Duck! » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:39 pm

If the spokes are threaded through eyelets on the wrong side of the rim, the heads of the nipples are not seating squarely, which can increase stress on the rim. staggered eyelets are intended to be basically square with the direction of spoke tension, to more evenly distribute the stress.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.
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Re: Wheelbuild spoke selection

Postby familyguy » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:03 pm

Back of my mind...I knew that...wishful thinking. Guess what I'm doing tomorrow night in front of Le Tour?!

Jim
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Re: Wheelbuild spoke selection

Postby Duck! » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:13 pm

You can also tell from the spoke holes in the inner wall as well - they'll be offset as well, to the opposite side as the spoke bed eylets. (Looking edge-on, the spokes coming up from the right side of the hub will have the seating eyelets offset to the right, while the matching hole where you drop the nipple in will be slightly left of centre.

Another good guide is when you're looking at the wheel side on, with the valve hole at 12 o'clock, the spoke immediately to the left of the valve will be on the side of the wheel towards you. Virtually every rim with staggered drilling will be set this way.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.
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Re: Wheelbuild spoke selection

Postby familyguy » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:25 pm

Fixed! Truing now, then its back on the bike.

Jim
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