Scratch build Commuter/Tourer all welcome!

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Scratch build Commuter/Tourer all welcome!

Postby mickk » Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:23 pm

OK well let me get lubricated. Sick of the impossible task of selecting an off the shelf model due to the plethora of combinations and mainly the small front rings I have decided to build my own. I have ridden daily for 30 years and raced, toured on a number of bikes. I have not had a good off the shelf model since a modified Giant Innova many years ago for touring. So I know what I want, I am just not up to speed on parts over the last ten years. What I want seems to cost about $2500 off the shelf, but I am sure we can do better.

So I have bouoght a frame, the Soma Double Cross DC as the base.

Tange Prestige heat-treated CrMo front triangle; butted CrMo rear end
- Clearance for 700x38c tyres with mudguards
- Rear spacing is 132.5 and fits road or mtn hubs.
Disc mount is located on the chainstay which allows you to put almost any rear rack or mudguard on it. Rear disc mounts fits 160mm rotors only.

Image Image

I get it tomorrow. I chose this for the price, $390 delivered from Abbotsford Cycles, the materials, and the mounts. I fell in love with that rear end, I want mine to look the same.

Now I need front forks, I have kinda decided on these forks http://store.interlocracing.com/taprlucxfrk1.html

Unless someone can point me to something local that will do the trick for less money. Any ideas? Ive spent hours looking and there is not much around. I will need a recommendation for headstem gear so I can fit the forks.

My next concern is wheels, I need a recommendation for 700c rims with 6 bolt sealed disc hubs for Avid brakes. I will go to $400 on those, any ideas? I have avid rear brake already. I dont need wide tyres so 29 inchers are out, I dunno about 26 inch, Im open to suggestions on those. I carry about 35 kilos on each back pannier, so I need strength. My old wheelbuilder died, so I am at aa loss.

Now I know its not so simple, we need to decide on drive train to get right hub. Im very open here. Only thing is I need a min of 50-52 tooth front ring. 2 or 3 front chain ring doenst matter and whatever does the trick on the rear, 7,8,9,10.

So then shifters and derailleurs have to be considered, once again open on those.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated and decisions made quickly. Its been a while since I built a bike, I used to be pretty good but times change.

I have looked at many groupsets, its hard to find big front chain rings unless its racing gear. I need levers for flat bars too, so thats a limiting option, so many limits, thats why i am considering building part by part not with a groupie.

This is my first build with disc brakes so its throwing me right off! If it was a racer, Id just shove 105 on it and be done with it!

I have considered buying another bike and stripping it, the Apollo transfer 40 for example for $800 and selling the frame see http://www.apollobikes.com/bikes14/rail ... szub7RpuZ8

I wonder if something like that would be an option?

Overall, I want it on the road within 6 weeks.

Help!



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by BNA » Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:28 pm

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Re: Scratch build Commuter/Tourer all welcome!

Postby mitchy_ » Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:28 pm

29er wheels will do the job for 700c tyres and disc brakes (assuming a 135 rear hub width)

i run 700x28c tyres on a set of 29" XC rims.
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Re: Scratch build Commuter/Tourer all welcome!

Postby MattyK » Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:41 pm

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Re: Scratch build Commuter/Tourer all welcome!

Postby il padrone » Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:56 pm

mitchy_ wrote:29er wheels will do the job for 700c tyres and disc brakes (assuming a 135 rear hub width)

i run 700x28c tyres on a set of 29" XC rims.

700C = 28" = 29er :idea:

The lunacy of bicycle industry marketing "Don't like the slow sales of what's out there? Make up something new that's already out there" :roll:


My new revelation for the roadie crowd is going to be the new 597 wheels :mrgreen:
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Re: Scratch build Commuter/Tourer all welcome!

Postby HappyHumber » Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:59 pm

il padrone wrote:My new revelation for the roadie crowd is going to be the new 597 wheels :mrgreen:

After all.. the 584mm / 27.5er"s are sooooo passé ;)
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Re: Scratch build Commuter/Tourer all welcome!

Postby adaml » Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:53 pm

mickk wrote:Now I need front forks, I have kinda decided on these forks http://store.interlocracing.com/taprlucxfrk1.html


Can you get these from someone other than IRD themselves? I ask because IRD will only ship within the US, altough you could try using one of those remailing services.

My next concern is wheels, I need a recommendation for 700c rims with 6 bolt sealed disc hubs for Avid brakes.


For the hubs, what about Shimano Deore XT M756? They use six-bolt rather than centrelock attachment and thus will fit the Avid rotors. That said, if by 'sealed' you mean cartridge bearings, these won't do as they are cup-and-cone. They are well-sealed though, as they are orginally intended for mountain biking.


This is my first build with disc brakes so its throwing me right off! If it was a racer, Id just shove 105 on it and be done with it!


For what it's worth, Deore/Deore LX are probably around the 105 level in Shimano's MTB/Touring groupsets. Deore XT is a bit plusher. I don't think any of them have a crankset with the rings that you want, but I'd be inclined to get a good quality square-taper cranket from the likes of Middleburn or Stronglight anyway.
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Re: Scratch build Commuter/Tourer all welcome!

Postby mickk » Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:12 pm

I looked at the surly forks, there is a local supplier but a wait until feb. The other forks, soma will ship them to australia I think. I will check with the rame shop to see if they have any others not listed. Marketing, yes a joke, I read the 29er is to designate wider tyres, so logical, I must be missing something.

SRAM seems to be the supplier with the most agessive marketing and deals atm, Its a shame, everything must come out of a handful of factories, the tweaks are so minor, even campag looks cheap now.

So many wheels laced so oddly, I cant see the strenght, gime 3x any day.

I think XT hubs are a good choice, would I need an adapter for the Avid brakes?

The stronglight gear looks interesting.
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Re: Scratch build Commuter/Tourer all welcome!

Postby Mulger bill » Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:29 pm

XT hubs are awesome kit. Bang for buck numbers through the roof IMO.

As adaml said, get the M756 six bolt type. Lace, fit, bolt on brakes and you are good to go.
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Re: Scratch build Commuter/Tourer all welcome!

Postby mitchy_ » Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:32 pm

il padrone wrote:
mitchy_ wrote:29er wheels will do the job for 700c tyres and disc brakes (assuming a 135 rear hub width)

i run 700x28c tyres on a set of 29" XC rims.

700C = 28" = 29er :idea:

The lunacy of bicycle industry marketing "Don't like the slow sales of what's out there? Make up something new that's already out there" :roll:


My new revelation for the roadie crowd is going to be the new 597 wheels :mrgreen:


yep. it's great when people tell me i shouldn't run 700c tyres on a 29" rim.. especially a wide one!

god forbid i run a road tyre on my 19mm internal width XC rims.. oh, what is this "new" thing, road bikes to now run ~19-21mm internal width rims? :lol:
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Re: Scratch build Commuter/Tourer all welcome!

Postby adaml » Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:35 pm

mickk wrote: I read the 29er is to designate wider tyres, so logical, I must be missing something.


Basically, when they started making 700c wheels for mountain bikes, they decided to rechristen them 29". When they started making 650b wheels for mountain bikes, they decided to rechristen them 27.5", although both names are used just to make things more interesting.

I think XT hubs are a good choice, would I need an adapter for the Avid brakes?


It depends on the model. If you get the M756s, no adaptor is needed. These use the standard '6-bolt' system for mounting the rotors (that is the actual disc, which is the only part that matters when dealing with the hub), Avid also uses this system and thus their rotors will bolt straight on.

If you get the M78x models, these use Shimano's own "Centrelock" system for mounting the rotors. In this case you will need an adaptor in order to mount the Avid rotors. Alternatively, you could buy a set of Shimano rotors and use them with your Avid brakes, they should be compatible (I actually have the opposite set up on my mountain bike, Avid rotors with Shimano brakes).
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Re: Scratch build Commuter/Tourer all welcome!

Postby mitchy_ » Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:40 pm

adaml wrote:If you get the M78x models, these use Shimano's own "Centrelock" system for mounting the rotors. In this case you will need an adaptor in order to mount the Avid rotors. Alternatively, you could buy a set of Shimano rotors and use them with your Avid brakes, they should be compatible (I actually have the opposite set up on my mountain bike, Avid rotors with Shimano brakes).


they are compatible. i've run a myriad of different brand rotors in my brakes, all fine.

get the 6 bolt hubs though, centerlock is junk.
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Re: Scratch build Commuter/Tourer all welcome!

Postby Duck! » Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:47 pm

mickk wrote:I think XT hubs are a good choice, would I need an adapter for the Avid brakes?

If you get the M756 6-bolt hubs mentioned previously, you won't need any adaptors, as 6-bolt is an industry standard. The M756 hubs are a carry-over from an older generation of XT; newer models (M780 is the current series) are only available in Shimano's splined Centrelock rotor arrangement, but there are readily available adaptors to enable you to fit 6-bolt rotors. The big benefit that made it into the later series is a much faster freehub ratchet, which really smooths out gearshifts, especially when loaded. As you change gears, the chain speed briefly goes out of sync with the wheel speed, which unloads the ratchets, then there's a lag until they re-engage, and under load there can be a fair shock load (ratchet bounce) when that happens. The fast engagement (10 degree intervals or 36 points vs 22.5 degree/16 points in the older model) means it's unloaded for a lot less time.

29" wheels/tyres isn't so much the mucketing departments deliberately confusing things (although they do that annoyingly well), but more to do with mountain biking still clinging to its American roots, where everything is still measured imperially. There is little difference between 29" MTB rims & road touring/hybrid rims, usually the MTB rims have thinner & shallower sidewalls 'cos they're not intended to be used with rim brakes.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.
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Re: Scratch build Commuter/Tourer all welcome!

Postby Duck! » Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:53 pm

mitchy_ wrote:
adaml wrote:If you get the M78x models, these use Shimano's own "Centrelock" system for mounting the rotors. In this case you will need an adaptor in order to mount the Avid rotors. Alternatively, you could buy a set of Shimano rotors and use them with your Avid brakes, they should be compatible (I actually have the opposite set up on my mountain bike, Avid rotors with Shimano brakes).


they are compatible. i've run a myriad of different brand rotors in my brakes, all fine..

Not all of them. The higher-spec rotors (RT-81/86/98/99) will hit the alloy spider arms on some non-Shimano calipers - I know for certain that Avid Elixirs suffer this problem, but I'm not sure about other Avids, but would not be surprised if they do too.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.
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Re: Scratch build Commuter/Tourer all welcome!

Postby mitchy_ » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:38 pm

Duck! wrote:
mitchy_ wrote:
adaml wrote:If you get the M78x models, these use Shimano's own "Centrelock" system for mounting the rotors. In this case you will need an adaptor in order to mount the Avid rotors. Alternatively, you could buy a set of Shimano rotors and use them with your Avid brakes, they should be compatible (I actually have the opposite set up on my mountain bike, Avid rotors with Shimano brakes).


they are compatible. i've run a myriad of different brand rotors in my brakes, all fine..

Not all of them. The higher-spec rotors (RT-81/86/98/99) will hit the alloy spider arms on some non-Shimano calipers - I know for certain that Avid Elixirs suffer this problem, but I'm not sure about other Avids, but would not be surprised if they do too.


if you keep riding they will eventually stop rubbing. :lol:
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Re: Scratch build Commuter/Tourer all welcome!

Postby silentbutdeadly » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:55 am

Because you want to run flat bar....go with SRAM. Try X9 shifters moving Rival derailleurs over an Apex chainset for a good mix of budget and performance. This will work for you because it has worked for me on my cross bike. Your LBS may be able to organise a package deal through Monza. Otherwise, there's plenty of offshore options.
These days, Shimano flat bar shifters (the good MTB ones anyway) don't play at all with the Shimano road derailleurs...or so I believe.

As for brakes then if you are going flat bar then go with hydro brakes rather than cable...these'd be sweet given they come with 160mm rotors http://www.merlincycles.com/shimano-slx ... 61384.html and are less than $200

As for wheels, Hope Hoops http://www.merlincycles.com/hope-hoops- ... 64974.html about $500

Plus the Disc Trucker forks and a cockpit and you're done...
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Re: Scratch build Commuter/Tourer all welcome!

Postby mickk » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:41 pm

Thanks everyone, Im waiting to hear back re a rear wheel based on the 756, Im keen on the 36 spokes.

Also waiting to hear back on forks.
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Re: Scratch build Commuter/Tourer all welcome!

Postby HappyHumber » Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:21 pm

I'm personally gunning for the 36er to get a bit more foothold in the market.

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Re: Scratch build Commuter/Tourer all welcome!

Postby nezumi » Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:43 pm

I'm hanging out for the resurgance of the 60er

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Re: Scratch build Commuter/Tourer all welcome!

Postby mickk » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:05 pm

I love those wheels, I want...but lifes too complicated as it is.

I have decided to run SRAM gear. I just like the look of it and they have a good range. I think with a bit of effort, I can get some resale out of the build should need arise, touch wood.

So after figuring out BBs I will start with the SRAM Red BB 68mm pommy thread will fit. Its the top of range and you never want a broken BB on the road or seized bearings, so I hope its good. I might ending up spending more than I wanted, but if I get 10 years out of it hassle free Im happy. You could count on that once.

Either 188 or 199 with postage, Taiwan vs UK.

So that pretty much determines the rest of the build, apart from wheels. With SRAM, the BB seems to determint the arms and rings, so the cassette and chain, to the gears. Nocely sewn up marketing plan. It will be all road gear apart from the brakes. Buying an groupset and selling what I dont need didnt work out too well on the $ its cheaper to buy the parts it seems.

So I have frame and BB done, waiting to hear back on forks and wheels. Next will be deciding what crankset to run, 39/53 to 11/25 ish I think, plenty of options using this BB.

Now I await the flood of SRAM no good posts, bound to happen. One thing I have learnt tho with bikes: Be satisfied, if it works, it works.

My catch up on parts and bikes is pretty much complete. Not good news. Its a jigsaw puzzle fraught with danger, too much of too little out there.

Bikes are pretty simple machines. 99% of what goes on is crap, all these new sizes and standards have non standardised the industry. Whats machinery account for on the winning line? 10% the rest is in the engine. So every brand has to have its spin to create a niche. Its overwhelming.

We need a mandatory colour coded system. International cross branding might be to too much to ask, but at least within brands. From what I see, compatability charts are almost gone. I bet the lil puter geeks couldt work one out unless it was already on a spread sheet.

Imagine a colour system. Every part has say 5 colouors, red, blue, green, white, black. You would know that any red hub goes with any red rim, any black chain with any black cassette etc. Just little coloured dots next to each item and on eacch box. More than one if need be.

Just so simple...

I keep you posted and its never too late to change, so I still listening. A long way to go yet.

So I guess I have a cyclo cross frame on MTB/tourig wheels running road gear. That will do the trick.
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Re: Scratch build Commuter/Tourer all welcome!

Postby mickk » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:27 pm

Oh yer, I think the Sram Osym cranks are the go for me, I miss my shimano 80s biopace.
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Re: Scratch build Commuter/Tourer all welcome!

Postby HappyHumber » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:30 pm

mickk wrote:Oh yer, I think the Sram Osym cranks are the go for me, I miss my shimano 80s biopace.
What was that you said about marketting? :D :D :D

mickk wrote:....all these new sizes and standards have non standardised the industry. Whats machinery account for on the winning line? 10% the rest is in the engine. So every brand has to have its spin to create a niche. Its overwhelming.
Just stirring ;)
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Re: Scratch build Commuter/Tourer all welcome!

Postby mickk » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:58 pm

Err you beat me, I tired, I was going to delete that. Oviod will take anothe 8 hours of research, so they out for now.

Ah mate, I no champion, so I need and claim all the mechanical and biological assistance I can. I Do belive in the biopace tho. Only racers and aboout half of them know how to peddle properly. Everyone assumes you know, so no one asks. Theres a lot of pushing but not much pulling.If I remember correctly, the pulling part is shortened so the pushing stroke is longer, so has to make sense re higher longer faster.

I reckon thats all I believe tho. More money equals hopefully better build quality and warranty from my view. Weight doenst account for much. Ah Choo can stuff up a load of ceramic bearings just as well as steel ones. In my dreams I would have had Campag, its the RR, then top Shimano as they did invent a lot of what is around. SRAM I had not heard of until I seen the brakes on the frame I bought.

BUT, I am still running my no name aluminium $25 clip on aero bars from about 1990 wil all original fittings, only end of armn rests are a bit shorter. 20 plus years, sun rain, driopped, left outside, swaapped 6 times, still as good as gold, just not much paint left. I bought these when aero bars cost at least $375 new. So who knows what ya money gets now. To have them last so long for so little is the buy of my lifetime I reckon. Ive had some huge Hospital crashes with them and they didnt break but me and bike did. Ohh the good ole days.

Image

I have ridden ALEX rims 36 spoke v brake rims for ages and I have never had one go our of true using one pannier. No name hubs and I have never serviced them. I have replaced them because it was cheaper to buy a new wheel than cassette and because I wanted higer profile rims, but got ALEX higher profile rims by default. For touring commuting, they seem to go OK in my book. 36 holes you see and triple laced if poss. Problem is I cant put $100 wheels on a $1800 build. It wouldnt be right.
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Re: Scratch build Commuter/Tourer all welcome!

Postby mickk » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:07 pm

If you can name ten items in the pic not on the bike, you win a prize, fist in best dressed. Winner is final No correspondence will be entered into.
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Re: Scratch build Commuter/Tourer all welcome!

Postby mitchy_ » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:20 pm

9 bricks and a bit of copper pipe.

edit - on second thoughts, i dont want to win.. the prize seems a bit kinky. :shock:

mickk wrote:fist in best dressed.


you cant go wrong with sram. not sure what you mean about not being able to mix parts though. i have a Sram X9 shifter, Sram Rival derailleur, Sram Force crank, Absolute Black chain ring, Shimano cassette and a KMC chain. all work harmoniously together.
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Re: Scratch build Commuter/Tourer all welcome!

Postby Tim » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:38 pm

mickk wrote: I carry about 35 kilos on each back pannier, so I need strength.


mickk wrote: Next will be deciding what crankset to run, 39/53 to 11/25 ish I think,


I think not.
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