Di2 battery suddenly died.

Arlberg
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Re: Di2 battery suddenly died.

Postby Arlberg » Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:40 am

Thanks rheicel thats very nice of you but I will probably just drop it at Rosebery after work rather than make a trip through the traffic to North Ryde.

vosadrian
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Re: Di2 battery suddenly died.

Postby vosadrian » Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:50 am

Just a couple of notes.

I am running a 6770 system on my bike with the only upgrades being the derailers are 6870, and I have the internal battery. I have made an adapter cable that enabled me to charge the internal battery through the 6770 shifter port. So my point here is that it is possible to just upgrade the derailers to 6870 and run the rest of the system as 6770.... but you need 11 speed wheel/cassette.

I also still have my old 6770 front derailer. I ended up changing both as it once jammed and bent and I bent it back and it has a small crack in the cage now. Was still working fine when I removed it, but I wanted 11 speed anyway so decided to retire. It may be possible to swap the electronics from my FD to your FD. My FD had no battery drain issue and worked fine. Let me know (PM) if you want to buy my FD from me for a good price to do this. I am in hills district Sydney. I have never tried to pull a 6770 FD apart, but if the electronics can be removed, it should be possible to swap them and resolve your issue.
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rheicel
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Re: Di2 battery suddenly died.

Postby rheicel » Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:10 pm

Arlberg wrote:Thanks rheicel thats very nice of you but I will probably just drop it at Rosebery after work rather than make a trip through the traffic to North Ryde.

All good mate, no problem at all!
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Arlberg
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Re: Di2 battery suddenly died.

Postby Arlberg » Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:27 pm

vosadrian wrote:Just a couple of notes.

I am running a 6770 system on my bike with the only upgrades being the derailers are 6870, and I have the internal battery. I have made an adapter cable that enabled me to charge the internal battery through the 6770 shifter port. So my point here is that it is possible to just upgrade the derailers to 6870 and run the rest of the system as 6770.... but you need 11 speed wheel/cassette.

I also still have my old 6770 front derailer. I ended up changing both as it once jammed and bent and I bent it back and it has a small crack in the cage now. Was still working fine when I removed it, but I wanted 11 speed anyway so decided to retire. It may be possible to swap the electronics from my FD to your FD. My FD had no battery drain issue and worked fine. Let me know (PM) if you want to buy my FD from me for a good price to do this. I am in hills district Sydney. I have never tried to pull a 6770 FD apart, but if the electronics can be removed, it should be possible to swap them and resolve your issue.


Another nice offer, I will certainly let you know. You seem pretty handy with electronics so maybe it can be done. Or perhaps it would be easier to put my cage on your FD rather than swap the electronics over?

Firstly I want to make sure that the FD is indeed the problem. Right now I am about 12 hours into a 36 hour test, where everything is disconnected apart from the FD (and the battery mount of course). Should the Indicator light be flashing after 36 hours I will recharge the battery and disconnect the FD and connect everything else back up, wait another 36 hours and hope for no flashing indicator light after 36 hours, which will confirm the FD is the problem. (Many thanks to Duck! for this method of diagnosis).

Then as a last attempt I will get the firmwear updated to see if that fixes the faulty FD.

I will let you know the outcome!

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biker jk
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Re: Di2 battery suddenly died.

Postby biker jk » Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:37 pm

Arlberg wrote:
biker jk wrote:
jasonc wrote:like rheicel says - buy a new FD, RD, chain and cassette and go 11 speed


Why? It should be a warranty claim. Even if the manufacturer's warranty period may have been exceeded you have a right to a statutory warranty under Australian Consumer Law.


I asked Shimano that, they say that as my Di2 6770 system is 3 years old it is no longer under warranty. They say their warranty is 2 years for some bits and 1 year for others.

Has anyone had any success with firmwear upgrades? Could it perhaps reset/restore the electrical system and make this FD 'go back to sleep' when it should?


Your choice but you have a statutory warranty which can exceed the maufacturers warranty by a considerable period.

Arlberg
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Re: Di2 battery suddenly died.

Postby Arlberg » Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:47 pm

How do I go about working out how long a statutory warranty lasts, and more importantly, how do I go about getting Shimano to come to the party? They seemed pretty adamant that their 2 year manufacturer's warranty is all they would be prepared to support. It sounds like there could be a long delay chasing all this up even if Shimano did agree to it. I just want to get this thing fixed and get back on the bike ASAP, I have already lost two weeks.

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jules21
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Re: Di2 battery suddenly died.

Postby jules21 » Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:20 pm

there is no fixed period for a statutory warranty. it's subject to a test of reasonableness. you could talk to your consumer affairs agency. I wonder if you'd be pushing it arguing for coverage after 3 years though. it would be more clearly in your favour if it was less time than that.

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isabella24
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Re: Di2 battery suddenly died.

Postby isabella24 » Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:35 pm

Well 24 hours after charging my new battery it is still on solid green. Fingers crossed.
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rheicel
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Re: Di2 battery suddenly died.

Postby rheicel » Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:52 pm

isabella24 wrote:Well 24 hours after charging my new battery it is still on solid green. Fingers crossed.

Good news!
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Re: Di2 battery suddenly died.

Postby Arlberg » Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:35 am

Update. After 36 hours I had a flashing green light with just the front derailleur connected. So I have recharged again and disconnected the FD while reconnecting the junction box (and hence both shift levers) and the rear derailleur. I am expecting (hoping) that the light stays solid green with this set up, indicating that the FD is the faulty component.

BTW, is there any way to tell if the wiring between the the battery mount and the FD is faulty rather than the FD itself? That would be much cheaper to replace than the FD, also I would prefer to avoid buying and installing a new FD only to find the problem still exists if the wiring leading to the FD is the cause rather than the FD.

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rheicel
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Re: Di2 battery suddenly died.

Postby rheicel » Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:19 am

If you can remove the RD and connect it to the FD wire, you should be able to confirm if its the FD wire or not. Or if the FD wire can reach you battery mount, connect it leaving the battery wire unconnected.
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jules21
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Re: Di2 battery suddenly died.

Postby jules21 » Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:37 am

Arlberg wrote:BTW, is there any way to tell if the wiring between the the battery mount and the FD is faulty rather than the FD itself?

I'd say it's unlikely the wiring itself is faulty. it's a just a wire. I have 100 yr old wiring in my roof that is crumbling, and it still works! the connections are more likely to be a problem, it's worth spraying them with WD40 and inspecting for visual damage - e.g. corrosion.

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Re: Di2 battery suddenly died.

Postby Arlberg » Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:26 pm

jules21 wrote:
Arlberg wrote:BTW, is there any way to tell if the wiring between the the battery mount and the FD is faulty rather than the FD itself?

I'd say it's unlikely the wiring itself is faulty. it's a just a wire. I have 100 yr old wiring in my roof that is crumbling, and it still works! the connections are more likely to be a problem, it's worth spraying them with WD40 and inspecting for visual damage - e.g. corrosion.


All the componenets seem to be working normally and reliably whenever I push a shifter button. If there was a corroded/faulty connection I would have thought that the shifting would at least occasionally be unreliable or not always work etc. But every gear shift functions perfectly when the battery has charge. I will check them though. Could corrosion in a connection cause the battery to go flat?

As an aside I rang a local bike shop about whether they had the Shimano e tube software and getting my 6770 system firmware upgraded, and the guy in the shop advised against it because apparently If I don't update the 6770 firmware I am still able to use 6870 derailleurs in the 6770 system, but if I do update the firmware then that is is no longer possible. He also did not think a firmware upgrade would diagnose and 'repair' whatever was draining the battery anyway. When I explained my problem about the battery drain he said he didn't think the FD could be the cause because that would only drain the battery when the FD motor was actually in operation, ie moving from the small to the big chainring or back again, and if it was faulty and doing that (or trying to do that you would hear the whirr of the motor), which it's clearly not doing when the bike is just sitting there. Like Duck! he was 90% sure that it was more likely the battery mount that is draining the battery.

So now I'm really confused.

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rheicel
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Re: Di2 battery suddenly died.

Postby rheicel » Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:52 pm

I have some battery mount that you can loan for your troubleshooting :D, and an FD, Junction, cables etc
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jules21
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Re: Di2 battery suddenly died.

Postby jules21 » Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:08 pm

Arlberg wrote:If I don't update the 6770 firmware I am still able to use 6870 derailleurs in the 6770 system, but if I do update the firmware then that is is no longer possible.

yeah, Shimano forgot to make the original 6770 firmware forwards incompatible ;)

I don't understand what makes the battery go flat - my derailleurs showed no obvious sign of 'stalled' operation - yet the battery was discharging. it's possible that a poor connection is sending false signals through the system (electronics)? but would the electronics staying 'busy' drain the battery over a period of only days? I don't know. I guess it's possible - as I can't see how the battery mount was obviously interfering with the derailleur operation - and it certainly is a known cause.

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isabella24
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Re: Di2 battery suddenly died.

Postby isabella24 » Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:45 pm

isabella24 wrote:Well 24 hours after charging my new battery it is still on solid green. Fingers crossed.


Close to 48 hours later and I'm still getting the solid green light. I think a new battery may have fixed it :D
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Arlberg
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Re: Di2 battery suddenly died.

Postby Arlberg » Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:59 am

Update. So after a test where I disconnected everything except the front derailleur and again had a flashing green light after 36 hours, I connected everything except the front derailleur and 36 hours later I still have a solid green light. So it seems the FD (or the wiring that leads to it) is the cause of the battery drain.

I'm going to get my brother to have a look this afternoon. he is not an electrician by any means but he knows more than me. I will get him to put a meter (an amp meter or a volt meter? I have no idea) on the plug at the end of the FD cable and see if the current is reaching at least as far the plug, if it is then I think I can safely assume that the FD itself is the problem?

I'd be very curious to find out why this FD has suddenly stopped working. Could the motor have burnt out, or corrosion got inside it, or a loose wire inside or what? All seem unlikely given how well I have looked after this bike.

Is there anything else I could get my brother to check while he's there with the meter?

As far as I know these Di2 front derailleurs can't be repaired, or has someone actually repaired one? Would it be worth opening it up and checking for corrosion around the electrical socket or internally?

Finally could a firmware upgrade 'reset', 'reconnect' or 'reprogram' an FD that is not working? It might be worth a try as a last resort, the trade-off being that I wont be able to mix 6870 Di2 components into my 6770 system in the future if I want to. As I don't intend to go 11 speed anyway (as it would mean having to get a new RD, freehub, chain etc) then maybe it is worth a try?

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singlespeedscott
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Re: Di2 battery suddenly died.

Postby singlespeedscott » Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:02 pm

My brain hurts after reading this thread. It makes me glad that I still use cables. It really sounds like a scam by Shimano. $240 for a front derailleur seriously?
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rheicel
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Re: Di2 battery suddenly died.

Postby rheicel » Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:21 pm

^whatever will make you ride your bike more sss
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singlespeedscott
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Re: Di2 battery suddenly died.

Postby singlespeedscott » Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:50 pm

I guess so, but it really is a very complicated answer to a simply answered question.
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Re: Di2 battery suddenly died.

Postby toolonglegs » Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:02 pm

jules21 wrote:
Arlberg wrote:BTW, is there any way to tell if the wiring between the the battery mount and the FD is faulty rather than the FD itself?

I'd say it's unlikely the wiring itself is faulty. it's a just a wire. I have 100 yr old wiring in my roof that is crumbling, and it still works! the connections are more likely to be a problem, it's worth spraying them with WD40 and inspecting for visual damage - e.g. corrosion.

I have seen 3 bikes with their Di2 wires rubbing against the rear tyre on the way to front mech... Sorry but this is a bit of a joke. Shimano should have a battery load tester to check battery condition. Should also be a 5 minute job to find a fault on such a small compact system.

Arlberg
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Re: Di2 battery suddenly died.

Postby Arlberg » Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:33 am

Update. Well it seems like I spoke too soon. I now have a flashing green light with everything except the FD connected. It took around 60 hours to start flashing rather than around 36 hours. So now I'm very frustrated as it seems I can't pinpoint what is causing the battery drainage. I will take the bike to the shop and get a new battery mount and all the firmware updated and see what that does.

rheicel wrote:I have some battery mount that you can loan for your troubleshooting :D, and an FD, Junction, cables etc


Thanks rheicel, I may take you up on that offer if the above doesn't work.

Arlberg
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Re: Di2 battery suddenly died.

Postby Arlberg » Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:52 pm

Update. My brother came over and put his ampmeter on the battery mount and found it was drawing 20 milliamps of power even with nothing else connected. The battery capacity is 500 milliamps so in terms of the time it was taking for the battery to drain, the numbers seem about right. I can only assume there is rust/corrosion somewhere in there. As this bike has NEVER been caught in the rain, perhaps it was sweat dripping down onto the battery mount or even the salty air of the Northern Beaches that caused it to form. As the old battery mount is obviously now useless, I will take it apart and see if I can see anything inside it. So Duck! was right on the money from the beginning. My local bike shop was nice enough to lend me a battery mount to take home and swap over with mine to see if it fixed the problem. It did! After nearly 6 days I still have a solid green light.

It has been pretty hectic and stressful trying to solve/diagnose exactly what was wrong and its something that took way longer than it should have, something Shimano needs to take a good look at. Di2 is a great system, but it seems that the old fashioned cables still have many advantages. Thanks to everyone for their help and advice.

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Drizt
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Re: Di2 battery suddenly died.

Postby Drizt » Sun Sep 27, 2015 4:05 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:My brain hurts after reading this thread. It makes me glad that I still use cables. It really sounds like a scam by Shimano. $240 for a front derailleur seriously?


There are plenty of things you bitch and moan about :P

Di2 craps on mech shifting gears, it is not even close.

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Drizt
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Re: Di2 battery suddenly died.

Postby Drizt » Sun Sep 27, 2015 4:07 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:I guess so, but it really is a very complicated answer to a simply answered question.


Di2 shifts better, more consistently, and is done at the click of a button.

I'm betting you bitched and moaned about electric mirrors, electric windows, central locking, remote controls etc as being unnecessary when they came out..... am I right?

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