CAAD12 headset

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tomee
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CAAD12 headset

Postby tomee » Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:11 pm

i've detected slight movement in my headset and found it is due to my compression ring either being too small or the wrong size.

Instead of trying to find a compression ring to fit i would want to replace the entire headset with something like a Cane Creek one if they make something to fit.

Does anyone know if there are any aftermarket headsets that can work?

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Tim
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Re: CAAD12 headset

Postby Tim » Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:42 pm

What makes you think the compression ring is the wrong size?
Post a photo maybe.
I doubt that this is the problem.

macca33
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Re: CAAD12 headset

Postby macca33 » Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:33 pm

Perhaps a spacer has been removed and there isn't the required amount of height differential between the forktube and the outer diameter of the spacer/stem to enable proper compression???

A pic would be handy...

cheers
CAAD10 Berzerker & Focus Mares CX & Jamis Xenith Elite

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tomee
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Re: CAAD12 headset

Postby tomee » Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:25 am

will try and get a pic.

my thoughts are compression ring because i can see movement when i look upclose.
i did a test by wrapping the compression ring with plumbers tape and the movement went away.

bearings are only 800km old and no movement on them.

another thing i just noticed is once i secure the compression ring the whole headset moves in the frame as if the bearings are slightly too small to sit in the frame :(

took a photo of the space under the bearing against the frame cup. Is there meant to be that much movement?
Bearing size is 41.8mm outer. do CAAD's require a 42mm outer?
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Tim
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Re: CAAD12 headset

Postby Tim » Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:08 am

Tomee, your headset arrangement looks very similar to my older CAAD9.
Are you torquing the top cap down tight enough before you tighten the stem clamp?
I've found that in order to compress the ring, preload the bearings and prevent movement a fair amount of torque needs to be applied to the top cap. Not enough to bind the bearings but more force than I'd originally imagined.
The gap between the fork steerer tube and the bearing looks okay. The compression ring fills that space and prevents movement.
That said, when I rock my bike back and forth with the front brake applied there has always been a slight amount of movement from the steerer, even with the top cap screwed down tight and the stem clamped. I don't worry about it and haven't had any problems over 30K of use though I did replace the bearings (not full headset) at about 15K.

macca33 wrote:Perhaps a spacer has been removed and there isn't the required amount of height differential between the forktube and the outer diameter of the spacer/stem to enable proper compression???


Macca has a good point.
If the fork steerer tube is too long it's impossible to get the correct preload on the bearings and compress the ring.
As a general maintenance check for headsets on all my bikes as well as rocking the bike back and forth with the front brake applied I also try and rotate the spacers by hand. They should be loose enough to rotate around the steerer but offer up a fair degree of resistance and friction to hand turning.

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tomee
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Re: CAAD12 headset

Postby tomee » Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:19 am

Tim wrote:Tomee, your headset arrangement looks very similar to my older CAAD9.
Are you torquing the top cap down tight enough before you tighten the stem clamp?
I've found that in order to compress the ring, preload the bearings and prevent movement a fair amount of torque needs to be applied to the top cap. Not enough to bind the bearings but more force than I'd originally imagined.
The gap between the fork steerer tube and the bearing looks okay. The compression ring fills that space and prevents movement.
That said, when I rock my bike back and forth with the front brake applied there has always been a slight amount of movement from the steerer, even with the top cap screwed down tight and the stem clamped. I don't worry about it and haven't had any problems over 30K of use though I did replace the bearings (not full headset) at about 15K.
.


thanks.
i should of drawn on the photo. i was talking about the outer diameter of the bearing against the frame.
i suspect CAAD's require a 42mm bearing instead of a 41.8mm.

i preload the bearing by pressing down with my weight and then screwinig down top cap.

I put a 5mm spacer below the top cap so that the steerer tube gives me about 3mm of gap

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Tim
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Re: CAAD12 headset

Postby Tim » Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:23 am

tomee wrote:i was talking about the outer diameter of the bearing against the frame.
i suspect CAAD's require a 42mm bearing instead of a 41.8mm.


That is the same as my bike and I had the same thought once too. The bearing sits quite loose in the frame housing until it is preloaded.
The frame housing is tapered as is the contact surface of the bearing.
Last edited by Tim on Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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tomee
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Re: CAAD12 headset

Postby tomee » Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:28 am

Tim wrote:
tomee wrote:i was talking about the outer diameter of the bearing against the frame.
i suspect CAAD's require a 42mm bearing instead of a 41.8mm.


That is the same as my bike and I had the same thought too. The bearing sits quite loose in the frame housing until it is preloaded.
The frame housing is tapered as is the contact surface of the bearing.


i might give this bearing a shot which is a 42mm outer
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/cane-creek-40-s ... d-headset/

i notice the bearing knocking about when i brake and hit rough stuff which is annoying to me as my other bike has no movement at all.

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Tim
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Re: CAAD12 headset

Postby Tim » Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:45 am

I'd make absolutely certain that headset fits your bike. There are hundreds of different types.
The crucial dimensions are the angle of the bearing top and bottom tapers and the bearing outer and inner diameter.
Your bike is designed for the 41.8mm bearing with 45 degree tapers, as supplied.
Just try tightening it properly.

This mob know their stuff, contact them;
https://www.cyclinic.com.au/product-category/cannondale/

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Tim
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Re: CAAD12 headset

Postby Tim » Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:37 am

tomee wrote:i preload the bearing by pressing down with my weight and then screwinig down top cap.


You don't need body weight to preload the bearings.
Just tighten the top cap down until the bearings start to bind then back it off a little, maybe a 1/16 to an 1/8'th of a turn, and secure the stem.
You'd be surprised how much torque is needed before the bearings start binding, more than my other bikes.

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Tim
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Re: CAAD12 headset

Postby Tim » Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:24 pm

Tomee, from what I've seen your headset is identical to mine;

Image

It states clearly not to place spacers on top of the stem ie. not under the top cap, only below the stem.
This might have something to do with it and again, do the top cap up tight. Under load the bearing sits tight in the angled/tapered section beneath the frame bore, it doesn't matter if the outer square surface of the bearing is not touching the bore (bearing housing), it becomes wedged in the taper.;

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tomee
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Re: CAAD12 headset

Postby tomee » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:06 am

thanks Tim.

the top bearing doesnt line up flush like your last diagram. It sticks out above the frame by a couple of inches.

looks like i might adjust the star nut in the fork steerer to make the top cap sit flush on the stem and see what happens. dont think it will stop the bearings moving though

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Tim
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Re: CAAD12 headset

Postby Tim » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:02 pm

tomee wrote:the top bearing doesnt line up flush like your last diagram. It sticks out above the frame by a couple of inches.


Inches?
Something is wrong. Do you mean the top cap sits inches above the frame or the bearing sits millimeters above the frame?
Your photo shows the top bearing sitting snugly in the frame housing, just as it should.
I don't get it.

tomee wrote:looks like i might adjust the star nut in the fork steerer to make the top cap sit flush on the stem and see what happens.


I might be wrong but I think your bike has an expander plug as per the diagram rather than a star nut.
My thoughts are that the bike came fitted with the headset it was designed for.
I think the fault lies in the headset assembly and fit.

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tomee
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Re: CAAD12 headset

Postby tomee » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:14 pm

Tim wrote:
tomee wrote:the top bearing doesnt line up flush like your last diagram. It sticks out above the frame by a couple of inches.


Inches?
Something is wrong. Do you mean the top cap sits inches above the frame or the bearing sits millimeters above the frame?
Your photo shows the top bearing sitting snugly in the frame housing, just as it should.
I don't get it.

tomee wrote:looks like i might adjust the star nut in the fork steerer to make the top cap sit flush on the stem and see what happens.


I might be wrong but I think your bike has an expander plug as per the diagram rather than a star nut.
My thoughts are that the bike came fitted with the headset it was designed for.
I think the fault lies in the headset assembly and fit.


sorry my wording was all wrong :D

i meant millimetres not inches and yes expander plug instead of star nut.

will try and change it and report back

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Re: CAAD12 headset

Postby Tim » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:35 pm

Are you inserting the bearing in it's housing the correct side up?
Also, check the the lower bearing at the bottom of the headtube is inserted the right way up.
In your photo the top bearing is seated correctly. The lower bearing is seated in a mirror image of the top one ie. the two bearings face opposite directions to each other.
Make sure there is no dirt or debri interfering with mating surfaces of the bearings, fork crown race and the headtube bore. I greased all surfaces quite heavily before reassembly but don't leave any stray grease on the fork steerer tube where the stem clamps on. Wipe any grease off the steerer with a clean rag generously soaked in metho (alcohol, not Kero). Don't use carbon paste on the steerer tube, it can work it's way down into the bearings and wreck them apparently.
Assemble everything as per the above instructions.
Good luck, hope this helps, but IANABM. :D

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Re: CAAD12 headset

Postby Tim » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:31 pm

The plot thickens, tomee.
I've just learnt that the CAAD12 has a tapered steerer tube. My old CAAD9 doesn't.
1 1/8 wide at the top and 1 1/4 at the bottom.
This probably means that there is a specific larger bearing for the bottom and a smaller one at the top.
This photo shows a complete CAAD10/12 headset assembly, the two bearings appear to be different though I can't find any specifications.
Make sure you have the right bearing in the right place and that each one is facing the right direction.
Image
http://www.cannondalespares.com/Cannondale-CAAD10-_-CAAD12-Headset--KP155/product_detail/3-39590

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Re: CAAD12 headset

Postby Tim » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:45 pm

Yes indeed, the two bearings are different sizes.
Double check yours are the right size, in the right place and orientation.
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Duck!
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Re: CAAD12 headset

Postby Duck! » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:57 pm

Easy, the larger lower bearing simply will not fit in the upper cup.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: CAAD12 headset

Postby Tim » Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:15 pm

Doh! :lol: :oops:

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tomee
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Re: CAAD12 headset

Postby tomee » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:13 am

Tim wrote:The plot thickens, tomee.
I've just learnt that the CAAD12 has a tapered steerer tube. My old CAAD9 doesn't.
1 1/8 wide at the top and 1 1/4 at the bottom.
This probably means that there is a specific larger bearing for the bottom and a smaller one at the top.
This photo shows a complete CAAD10/12 headset assembly, the two bearings appear to be different though I can't find any specifications.
Make sure you have the right bearing in the right place and that each one is facing the right direction.
Image
http://www.cannondalespares.com/Cannondale-CAAD10-_-CAAD12-Headset--KP155/product_detail/3-39590


Thanks TIm
mine doesnt have the metal shims. Is this required?

will take some detailed photos over the weekend

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tomee
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Re: CAAD12 headset

Postby tomee » Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:08 am

so last night i quickly reinstalled the headset

this time removing the expander plug and assessmbling the top cap together and then re-installing

movement has gone but it did this the other time i tried and managed to rattle itself loose again.

will see how this go

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Re: CAAD12 headset

Postby dmwill » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:19 pm

Out of interest, my brother just picked up a CAAD12 and I conveniently read this before he asked me to help drop his stem.

Now we have no dramas cutting down the steerer tube given the recommendation not to run spacers above, however, say if we needed to really slam the stem, what can be done to replace the lower-most tapered spacer/headset top-cap which is 20mm or so in stack?

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Re: CAAD12 headset

Postby Duck! » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:34 pm

There are lower profile top covers available; usually part of a complete headset, but if you ask nicely, your LBS might have a stash of spares.

When fitting the expander ensure it's sufficiently tightened in the steerer tube. If it's not tight enough it will slip out, resulting in slackening of the headset.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: CAAD12 headset

Postby Jojo0831 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:07 pm

'Hi tomee, have you corrected your slight headset movement already? I suppose I have the same problem and I am experiencing "tick" or "creck" headset noise with my new Caad12. I already check the above recommendations but still having the problem.

Below are my Headset parts except the 2 metal shims/washer. Is this required?
Image

I hope someone could help. Thanks!

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tomee
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Re: CAAD12 headset

Postby tomee » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:29 am

Jojo0831 wrote:'Hi tomee, have you corrected your slight headset movement already? I suppose I have the same problem and I am experiencing "tick" or "creck" headset noise with my new Caad12. I already check the above recommendations but still having the problem.

Below are my Headset parts except the 2 metal shims/washer. Is this required?
Image

I hope someone could help. Thanks!


i replaced the whole fork expander and it hasnt knocked since.
I suspect my issue was the stock expander was slipping causing it to come loose and knock. I replaced it with a beefier Deda one.

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