Cassettes under the microscope! Old vs new, 105 v Ultegra

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Nate
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Cassettes under the microscope! Old vs new, 105 v Ultegra

Postby Nate » Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:05 pm

Another interesting fiddle with my microscope - what do they look like!

Comparing worn vs new 105 5800s
105 vs Ultegra vs bdops 1 piece - the manufacturing differences are very interesting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX-JZkDV6Ic

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Re: Cassettes under the microscope! Old vs new, 105 v Ultegra

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:11 pm

Very interesting.

I'd be curious to see various cables under a microscope, i.e. Shimano vs Jagwire vs Clarks v Ashima etc etc.
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Re: Cassettes under the microscope! Old vs new, 105 v Ultegra

Postby eeksll » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:25 pm

interesting video, thankyou.

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Re: Cassettes under the microscope! Old vs new, 105 v Ultegra

Postby li2099 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:11 pm

Gonna watch this when I get home.

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Re: Cassettes under the microscope! Old vs new, 105 v Ultegra

Postby Thoglette » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:11 pm

li2099 wrote:Gonna watch this when I get home.

Care to post a summary? I can read a whole lot quicker than most people talk. And most people (including me) yabber on: when I transcribe and edit my lectures (or God forbid, panel discussions) I end up with 50% less words. (Beckett was a keen observer :D)


Then there's this wonderful thing called "an abstract". (Which is the exact opposite of the internet "Ten things that " title)
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Re: Cassettes under the microscope! Old vs new, 105 v Ultegra

Postby eeksll » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:53 pm

Thoglette wrote:
li2099 wrote:Gonna watch this when I get home.

Care to post a summary? I can read a whole lot quicker than most people talk. And most people (including me) yabber on: when I transcribe and edit my lectures (or God forbid, panel discussions) I end up with 50% less words. (Beckett was a keen observer :D)


Then there's this wonderful thing called "an abstract". (Which is the exact opposite of the internet "Ten things that " title)


YouTube has a 1.5x speed playback there we also plugins to do that too .... They are bloody brilliant.

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Re: Cassettes under the microscope! Old vs new, 105 v Ultegra

Postby Nate » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:20 pm

Thoglette wrote:Care to post a summary?


105 cassette - poor stamped construction, wears poorly, chews freehub
Ultegra - much better made
Bdop 1 piece - superbly made

Nothing hugely insightful - but just (IMHO) a REALLY interesting LOOK at cassettes up close - and very revealing as to the shortcomings of each.

Summarise?
Try to summarise the Tour de France - would sound boring as, but to watch is graceful.

Its just something thats really really cool to watch.

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Re: Cassettes under the microscope! Old vs new, 105 v Ultegra

Postby Thoglette » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:24 pm

Nate wrote:Its just something thats really really cool to watch.

Thanks Nate!
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Re: Cassettes under the microscope! Old vs new, 105 v Ultegra

Postby MelodyWheels » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:03 am

Cool video.

Thanks for taking the time to make it!

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Re: Cassettes under the microscope! Old vs new, 105 v Ultegra

Postby Calvin27 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:46 am

Thanks for the video.

I'd be interested to see how the MTB casettes compare since generally I do a lot more stomping on pedals on the MTB than on the road.
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Re: Cassettes under the microscope! Old vs new, 105 v Ultegra

Postby queequeg » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:36 am

Nice video.

In regards to the Hope Pro 2 EVO Freehub, when I first got mine I ordered the Steel Freehub to go with it, and I have been commuting with that for years. Surprisingly, even on the steel freehub there are tiny gouge marks from the cassettes. Not enough to affect the ease of sliding cassettes on or off, but certainly not the same grade steel that you might find on a Shimano freehub.

I still have my gold Hope Pro 2 EVO Alloy Freehub sitting unused in my spare parts bin. I actually just serviced my Rear Hub and replaced all 5 bearings. What happened to your Freehub in the video? It had quite a lot of muck on it. When I pulled mine apart it still had blue grease on the pawls!
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Re: Cassettes under the microscope! Old vs new, 105 v Ultegra

Postby Nate » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:59 pm

queequeg wrote:What happened to your Freehub in the video? It had quite a lot of muck on it. When I pulled mine apart it still had blue grease on the pawls!


Took off from the lights & the bearings didnt wanna be friends anymore.
catastrophic failure, bearing races in pieces & all sorts of brokenness.

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Re: Cassettes under the microscope! Old vs new, 105 v Ultegra

Postby queequeg » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:06 pm

Nate wrote:
queequeg wrote:What happened to your Freehub in the video? It had quite a lot of muck on it. When I pulled mine apart it still had blue grease on the pawls!


Took off from the lights & the bearings didnt wanna be friends anymore.
catastrophic failure, bearing races in pieces & all sorts of brokenness.


That's quite an effort. I just replaced all the bearings in my EVO 2 Hub, and other than being a little bit rough after tens of thousands of km, they were intact and clean. I replaced them all the same, as I had the whole thing apart while I rebuild the hubs onto some new rims. I really flogged my bike every day as a commuter, so I am a bit surprised they failed like that.
Before the Hope hub I had an NS Bikes hub where the same thing happened though. The bearings just fell apart as I was climbing a hill, the freehub came off, threw my chain into the spokes and popped 8 spokes in one go.
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Re: Cassettes under the microscope! Old vs new, 105 v Ultegra

Postby Nate » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:01 pm

queequeg wrote:
That's quite an effort. I just replaced all the bearings in my EVO 2 Hub, and other than being a little bit rough after tens of thousands of km, they were intact and clean. I replaced them all the same, as I had the whole thing apart while I rebuild the hubs onto some new rims. I really flogged my bike every day as a commuter, so I am a bit surprised they failed like that.


Mine gets a workout: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkzV3SLUZ5A
NOTHING lasts on my commuter, spokes, gear train... all gets a belting.

I'd say it was a bad batch of bearings, so see bearing races in pieces is a huge fault & not just abuse.
Either way - been rolling on my bdop wheels for AGES & zero problems - so dont look to the "big brands" for reassurance or quality!!!

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Re: Cassettes under the microscope! Old vs new, 105 v Ultegra

Postby queequeg » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:57 pm

Nate wrote:
queequeg wrote:
That's quite an effort. I just replaced all the bearings in my EVO 2 Hub, and other than being a little bit rough after tens of thousands of km, they were intact and clean. I replaced them all the same, as I had the whole thing apart while I rebuild the hubs onto some new rims. I really flogged my bike every day as a commuter, so I am a bit surprised they failed like that.


Mine gets a workout: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkzV3SLUZ5A
NOTHING lasts on my commuter, spokes, gear train... all gets a belting.

I'd say it was a bad batch of bearings, so see bearing races in pieces is a huge fault & not just abuse.
Either way - been rolling on my bdop wheels for AGES & zero problems - so dont look to the "big brands" for reassurance or quality!!!


That makes two of us!



I build and service my own wheels. Riding in that sort of crap really rips through components
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Re: Cassettes under the microscope! Old vs new, 105 v Ultegra

Postby rkelsen » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:27 pm

That is a very interesting comparison. It makes it plain to see the differences in quality.

So I went to the BDOP website to look at their cassettes... and it says that they're limited to a rider weight of 90kg... WT?

Maybe I've been out of the loop for too long, but since when do cassettes have weight limits?

In case you're wondering, yes, I'm north of 90kegs.

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Re: Cassettes under the microscope! Old vs new, 105 v Ultegra

Postby queequeg » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:59 pm

rkelsen wrote:That is a very interesting comparison. It makes it plain to see the differences in quality.

So I went to the BDOP website to look at their cassettes... and it says that they're limited to a rider weight of 90kg... WT?

Maybe I've been out of the loop for too long, but since when do cassettes have weight limits?

In case you're wondering, yes, I'm north of 90kegs.


Maybe what they really mean is that if you are big, you might put out sprinters watts, and destroy the cassettes.

I use the SRAM Red XG Cassettes on my R5 to stop the freehub getting chewed to pieces. The SRAM Cassettes have a single piece of hollow tubing to which the entire cluster is attached. It only has contact points with the freehub itself at either end (the two smallest sprockets, plus the largest one at the other end), and is spreads the load across the entire tube, regardless of the sprocket you are on. The entire cassette is actually made from one single piece of steel

When you slide the cassette off the freehub, there is not even the slightest indication that the freehub ever had a cassette fitted to it.

The downside is the cost, but they are the only ones I have seen that keep an alloy freehub completely unmarked. The next best alternative is to specific a steel or titanium freehub. You never hear of these issues on Shimano branded hubs, and that is the reason. There is no a single Shimano hub that has an alloy freehub body.
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Re: Cassettes under the microscope! Old vs new, 105 v Ultegra

Postby Duck! » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:35 am

Correction inserted.
queequeg wrote:The next best alternative is to specific a steel or titanium freehub. You never hear of these issues on Shimano branded hubs, and that is the reason. There is not a single current Shimano hub that has an alloy freehub body.

Early Shimano 10-sp. (7800, 6600 & 5600) wheelsets but not stand-alone hubs (except Dura-Ace) had aluminium freewheel bodies, but used the 10-sp.-specific deeper spline pattern to alleviate bite-marks. The deep-spline freewheel bodies are long gone (phase-out began even before 7800 Dura-Ace had run its production course), but 105 & above 10-sp. cassettes retain it to this day.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Cassettes under the microscope! Old vs new, 105 v Ultegra

Postby queequeg » Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:12 am

Duck! wrote:Correction inserted.
queequeg wrote:The next best alternative is to specific a steel or titanium freehub. You never hear of these issues on Shimano branded hubs, and that is the reason. There is not a single current Shimano hub that has an alloy freehub body.

Early Shimano 10-sp. (7800, 6600 & 5600) wheelsets but not stand-alone hubs (except Dura-Ace) had aluminium freewheel bodies, but used the 10-sp.-specific deeper spline pattern to alleviate bite-marks. The deep-spline freewheel bodies are long gone (phase-out began even before 7800 Dura-Ace had run its production course), but 105 & above 10-sp. cassettes retain it to this day.


Yes, sorry, I should have added that this is what Shimano sells today. I was aware they had a deeper spline 10sp only hub design, which everyone whined about, but as you point out, the cassettes themselves still have the deeper spline cut on them, which just compounds the problem on a shallow alloy hub. I'm pretty sure that Shimano has never manufactured a freehub body with the shallow spline in anything other than steel or titanium, but happy to stand corrected if they did. Browsing their current lineup, it looks like they do Steel on everything up to and including Ultegra/XT level, with Titanium Frehubs used on Dura-Ace & XTR level hubs.
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Re: Cassettes under the microscope! Old vs new, 105 v Ultegra

Postby Nate » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:58 pm

rkelsen wrote:That is a very interesting comparison. It makes it plain to see the differences in quality.
So I went to the BDOP website to look at their cassettes... and it says that they're limited to a rider weight of 90kg... WT?
Maybe I've been out of the loop for too long, but since when do cassettes have weight limits?
In case you're wondering, yes, I'm north of 90kegs.


Its a website typo - the ALUMINIUM cassettes are limited to 90kg.
The cro-mo steel ones are fine for fatties like us :)

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Re: Cassettes under the microscope! Old vs new, 105 v Ultegra

Postby Duck! » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:58 pm

queequeg wrote: I'm pretty sure that Shimano has never manufactured a freehub body with the shallow spline in anything other than steel or titanium, but happy to stand corrected if they did. Browsing their current lineup, it looks like they do Steel on everything up to and including Ultegra/XT level, with Titanium Frehubs used on Dura-Ace & XTR level hubs.

That is indeed quite correct, the deep spline pattern was designed with aluminium freewheel bodies specifically in mind, and Shimano never made an aluminium body with the standard shallow spline.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Cassettes under the microscope! Old vs new, 105 v Ultegra

Postby geoffs » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:38 am

Hi Nate
Thanks for taking the time to make this video. Really interesting to watch and see the differences between the quality levels of manufacture. I had no idea that 105 cassettes were that bad. I was going to use an XT 11-42 on our Chris King tandem hub. I'm now thinking I'll swap to an XD free hub body and use the Sram cassette instead and make my wallet bleed

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Re: Cassettes under the microscope! Old vs new, 105 v Ultegra

Postby Nate » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:35 pm

geoffs wrote:Hi Nate
Thanks for taking the time to make this video. Really interesting to watch and see the differences between the quality levels of manufacture. I had no idea that 105 cassettes were that bad. I was going to use an XT 11-42 on our Chris King tandem hub. I'm now thinking I'll swap to an XD free hub body and use the Sram cassette instead and make my wallet bleed


Bleed now for a bit, or death by a thousand cuts the other way!

What about the bdop cassette on your existing setup? saves getting a new free hub?
worse case - you wear thru that & get the sram stuff later?

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Re: Cassettes under the microscope! Old vs new, 105 v Ultegra

Postby geoffs » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:39 pm

BDop cassettes have a rider weight limit of 90 kgs so that's me out as I'm 95kg.
So with the wife on as well that takes rider weight up to 146kg so I don't think they'd survive. We only get about 3000kms from a chain. Tandems eat parts

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Re: Cassettes under the microscope! Old vs new, 105 v Ultegra

Postby queequeg » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:54 pm

geoffs wrote:BDop cassettes have a rider weight limit of 90 kgs so that's me out as I'm 95kg.
So with the wife on as well that takes rider weight up to 146kg so I don't think they'd survive. We only get about 3000kms from a chain. Tandems eat parts


I think Nate pointed out, that is a typo. The weight limits applies to their alloy cassettes, not the steel ones :-)
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