Custom Wheel Builds

jackthelad
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Custom Wheel Builds

Postby jackthelad » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:51 pm

So....
i am over the 100kg mark, with gear on..
i had a Custom bike made up.

this included wheels,
32 hole hubs to 29er Flow rims
i believe they have only been made 2 cross
would you expect this or 3 cross, with a person of over 100kg?
Should i be annoyed? is it worth saying something to the shop or move on..
Can it be recrossed, using same spokes.
would you be annoyed? if you werent asked while being built
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queequeg
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Re: Custom Wheel Builds

Postby queequeg » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:29 am

jackthelad wrote:So....
i am over the 100kg mark, with gear on..
i had a Custom bike made up.

this included wheels,
32 hole hubs to 29er Flow rims
i believe they have only been made 2 cross
would you expect this or 3 cross, with a person of over 100kg?
Should i be annoyed? is it worth saying something to the shop or move on..
Can it be recrossed, using same spokes.
would you be annoyed? if you werent asked while being built


a) Did you tell the wheel builder you were 100kg+?
b) Did you factor it carrying any gear as well?
c) 2 Cross is fine - the number of spokes is more important
d) No, you can't relace the wheels to 3 cross using the same spokes. The spokes will be too short.

Would I be annoyed? Well, if I asked for 3 cross and he built 2 cross...yes. If you didn't specifically ask for it, the builder made a choice.

With 32 spokes front and back, you should have a wheelset that will take at least a 115kg rider weight, and probably a fair bit more. I'm not sure about your rims though, and whether they are rated for certain load.
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jackthelad
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Re: Custom Wheel Builds

Postby jackthelad » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:13 am

queequeg wrote:
jackthelad wrote:So....
i am over the 100kg mark, with gear on..
i had a Custom bike made up.

this included wheels,
32 hole hubs to 29er Flow rims
i believe they have only been made 2 cross
would you expect this or 3 cross, with a person of over 100kg?
Should i be annoyed? is it worth saying something to the shop or move on..
Can it be recrossed, using same spokes.
would you be annoyed? if you werent asked while being built


a) Did you tell the wheel builder you were 100kg+?
b) Did you factor it carrying any gear as well?
c) 2 Cross is fine - the number of spokes is more important
d) No, you can't relace the wheels to 3 cross using the same spokes. The spokes will be too short.

Would I be annoyed? Well, if I asked for 3 cross and he built 2 cross...yes. If you didn't specifically ask for it, the builder made a choice.

With 32 spokes front and back, you should have a wheelset that will take at least a 115kg rider weight, and probably a fair bit more. I'm not sure about your rims though, and whether they are rated for certain load.


The shop knew i was over 100kg
i am the kitchen sink, medical, spares person, around 110 to 120kg with gear
i wasnt asked what cross, i would like...
and custom bike.. emails sent back and forward etc..
Flows are good for up to 250lb's so within range
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queequeg
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Re: Custom Wheel Builds

Postby queequeg » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:27 am

jackthelad wrote:
queequeg wrote:
jackthelad wrote:So....
i am over the 100kg mark, with gear on..
i had a Custom bike made up.

this included wheels,
32 hole hubs to 29er Flow rims
i believe they have only been made 2 cross
would you expect this or 3 cross, with a person of over 100kg?
Should i be annoyed? is it worth saying something to the shop or move on..
Can it be recrossed, using same spokes.
would you be annoyed? if you werent asked while being built


a) Did you tell the wheel builder you were 100kg+?
b) Did you factor it carrying any gear as well?
c) 2 Cross is fine - the number of spokes is more important
d) No, you can't relace the wheels to 3 cross using the same spokes. The spokes will be too short.

Would I be annoyed? Well, if I asked for 3 cross and he built 2 cross...yes. If you didn't specifically ask for it, the builder made a choice.

With 32 spokes front and back, you should have a wheelset that will take at least a 115kg rider weight, and probably a fair bit more. I'm not sure about your rims though, and whether they are rated for certain load.


The shop knew i was over 100kg
i am the kitchen sink, medical, spares person, around 110 to 120kg with gear
i wasnt asked what cross, i would like...
and custom bike.. emails sent back and forward etc..
Flows are good for up to 250lb's so within range


I think you'll be fine. Main thing is you got lots of spokes on a solid rim. I have recently built two wheelsets. One was 32 with 2-cross, the other I did as 36H 3-cross (as it was new rims and spokes on existing hubs, so I matched my previous lacing). Both sets of wheels are incredibly strong.
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Duck!
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Re: Custom Wheel Builds

Postby Duck! » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:05 am

If they're disc-brake wheels, they should be laced 3-cross; many hub manufacturers will actually specify 3x lacing, and your component warranty may be void if they're laced differently. I would also never build 2x for any more than 28 spokes, as the more spokes you get, the pull/push angle of the spokes off the hub reduces, so you lose rotational stability, resulting in "wind-up" under driving & braking torwue, which can reduce the life of the wheels due to spoke fatigue.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

jackthelad
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Re: Custom Wheel Builds

Postby jackthelad » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:38 am

yes its a disc brake
on Boost 148 rear /110 boost fork 15mm axle
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Duck!
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Re: Custom Wheel Builds

Postby Duck! » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:41 am

Boost spacing makes no difference. More than 28 spokes should be laced 3x. Less than 28 spokes can be laced 2x. 28 spokes can be laced eithr 2x or 3x (but I'd go 3x).
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Custom Wheel Builds

Postby bychosis » Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:03 am

Are you sure they are 2 cross? You don’t seem convinced in the OP.
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Re: Custom Wheel Builds

Postby foo on patrol » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:50 pm

Weight restrictions on wheels, are only to cover the manufacturers arse. I get told that I'm to heavy to ride 16sp front and 20sp rear. It's a load of crap and if the wheels are made correctly and you're not a tool on the bike, there should be no problems! :idea:

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Re: Custom Wheel Builds

Postby jackthelad » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:22 am

Dropped in on a local shop, on a ride . and he said 2 cross should be ok ...
Nt shop purchased from
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biker jk
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Re: Custom Wheel Builds

Postby biker jk » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:31 am

jackthelad wrote:Dropped in on a local shop, on a ride . and he said 2 cross should be ok ...
Nt shop purchased from


Might be ok but not ideal. Three cross on a 32 spoke disc brake wheel is ideal. I guess "custom" build in this case means the builder's habit of using insufficient spoke crossings.

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Re: Custom Wheel Builds

Postby RonK » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:58 am

It's hard to believe any competent wheel builder would have built your wheels two-cross.

It's not always easy to see all the crossings. One will be very close to the hub flange and is easily overlooked. Post a photo.

Image
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queequeg
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Re: Custom Wheel Builds

Postby queequeg » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:14 am

RonK wrote:It's hard to believe any competent wheel builder would have built your wheels two-cross.

It's not always easy to see all the crossings. One will be very close to the hub flange and is easily overlooked. Post a photo.

Image


I guess it depends. Here's an extract from the Roger Musson Wheelbuilding Book

Image

Image

According to Roger, there is no difference in performance or strength for one cross pattern over another. In many cases it comes down to the hub and the spoke entry angle at the rim. Plus, for weight weenies, more crosses means longer spokes, which means a heavier wheel :-)
The Spoke Calculator (https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/spokecalc/) will warn you if the selected cross pattern for your hub will result in overlapping spoke heads, plus it will also give you the entry angle of the spokes to the rims.

I have just done two wheelbuilds recently. One was a 24F/32R 2-Cross Wheelset, the other was 36F/36R 3-Cross.

Of course, Roger is only one guy, and I have not seen the actual data on 2 Cross vs 3-Cross, but given that both a 2 Cross and a 3 Cross wheel have only one spoke touching against another in each cross, I fail to see how one would be stronger than another. The only difference is the angle that the spokes cross at (with the exception being a 0 Cross/Radial Lacing)
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Re: Custom Wheel Builds

Postby P!N20 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:53 am

queequeg wrote:I have not seen the actual data on 2 Cross vs 3-Cross, but given that both a 2 Cross and a 3 Cross wheel have only one spoke touching against another in each cross, I fail to see how one would be stronger than another.


http://docplayer.net/32700824-Bicycle-w ... acing.html

Let's jump to the conclusion:

In this analysis the 3x/3x wheel provided the best combination of strength, stiffness, power transfer and reliability. The 3x/3x wheel outperformed the two half radial wheels because allof the spokes share the power. In the half radial wheels, only the crossed spokes transfer power – the radial spokes only support rider weight. The 2x/2x wheel matched the 3x/3x wheel in stiffness and power transfer, but the 3x/3x wheel won on fatigue strength. This is because the spokes emerge from the hub at an angle nearly tangent to the hub flange. This is true with a 28 spoke wheel; however, as the number of spokes in the wheel increases or decreases, the number of spoke crossings would need to be adjusted to maintain the tangent condition. Accordingly, 2x lacing should be used with 20 spokes or less, 3x lacing should be used with 24 or 28 spokes, and 4x lacing should be used with 32 spokes or greater. So it is concluded that the best rear wheel is cross laced on both sides with number of crossing chosen to make the spokes as close to tangent to the hub flange as possible.

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biker jk
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Re: Custom Wheel Builds

Postby biker jk » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:59 am

it's always better to have more crosses with a disc brake wheel due to the torsional forces from braking. As Sheldon Brown concludes:

A high cross number helps, so the spokes leave the hub at a larger effective radius.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/torque-spoking.html

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queequeg
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Re: Custom Wheel Builds

Postby queequeg » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:12 pm

P!N20 wrote:
queequeg wrote:I have not seen the actual data on 2 Cross vs 3-Cross, but given that both a 2 Cross and a 3 Cross wheel have only one spoke touching against another in each cross, I fail to see how one would be stronger than another.


http://docplayer.net/32700824-Bicycle-w ... acing.html

Let's jump to the conclusion:

In this analysis the 3x/3x wheel provided the best combination of strength, stiffness, power transfer and reliability. The 3x/3x wheel outperformed the two half radial wheels because allof the spokes share the power. In the half radial wheels, only the crossed spokes transfer power – the radial spokes only support rider weight. The 2x/2x wheel matched the 3x/3x wheel in stiffness and power transfer, but the 3x/3x wheel won on fatigue strength. This is because the spokes emerge from the hub at an angle nearly tangent to the hub flange. This is true with a 28 spoke wheel; however, as the number of spokes in the wheel increases or decreases, the number of spoke crossings would need to be adjusted to maintain the tangent condition. Accordingly, 2x lacing should be used with 20 spokes or less, 3x lacing should be used with 24 or 28 spokes, and 4x lacing should be used with 32 spokes or greater. So it is concluded that the best rear wheel is cross laced on both sides with number of crossing chosen to make the spokes as close to tangent to the hub flange as possible.


So, if I read that correctly, the correct number of crosses for any given wheel has nothing to do with strength, but is a factor of the hub flange only. Based on this, my 3x wheel should actually be a 4x wheel (although the spoke heads would overlap), and my 2x wheel should be a 3x wheel, and my factory wheels were built sub-optimally :-)

Update: I read the linked article. So, the fatigue strength was taken to be the wheel with the lowest tension range. I'm not really sure what to make of that, given that the spokes they used were nowhere near the limits of their max tension. Would be interesting to see how that translates into a real world scenario. For example, a 3x laced wheel would expect X spoke failures over Y years, whereas the 2x lacing would result in X * some number over Y years.

What I did find interesting was that the 2x and 3x wheels had identical power transfer and strength.
Last edited by queequeg on Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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P!N20
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Re: Custom Wheel Builds

Postby P!N20 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:30 pm

^ Yeah I can't get 4x to work with the 32h high flange hubs I'm about to build up.

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Re: Custom Wheel Builds

Postby find_bruce » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:41 pm

As always I rely on Roger Musson
Roger Musson wrote:The number of crosses to use is based solely on the number of spokes in the wheel. When it comes to the number of crosses there is a recommended number for each spoke count which ensures the spokes do not overlap on the hub flange putting an unnecessary bend in the spoke close to the elbow, the overlap also makes replacing a broken spoke more difficult. For example, a 32 spoke wheel can have a maximum of 3 crosses; once you go to 4 cross the spoke wraps over the head of the inside spoke.
He then has a table that lists spoke numbers & preferred & optional crosses as follows

36 3 4
32 3 2
28 3 2
24 2 -

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queequeg
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Re: Custom Wheel Builds

Postby queequeg » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:58 pm

find_bruce wrote:As always I rely on Roger Musson
Roger Musson wrote:The number of crosses to use is based solely on the number of spokes in the wheel. When it comes to the number of crosses there is a recommended number for each spoke count which ensures the spokes do not overlap on the hub flange putting an unnecessary bend in the spoke close to the elbow, the overlap also makes replacing a broken spoke more difficult. For example, a 32 spoke wheel can have a maximum of 3 crosses; once you go to 4 cross the spoke wraps over the head of the inside spoke.
He then has a table that lists spoke numbers & preferred & optional crosses as follows

36 3 4
32 3 2
28 3 2
24 2 -


The table is included in my post above :-)
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Re: Custom Wheel Builds

Postby baabaa » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:21 pm

Umm.... Just my call but I would be asking for a rebuild with a x3 only because I custom should be just that and give you a end result that you don't have to question. I am a bit surprised they didn't ask at the prebuild stage. Again not sure but maybe x2 would be fine with double eyelet rims but what are you saving? x3 is kinda proven to work.

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Re: Custom Wheel Builds

Postby MelodyWheels » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:33 am

I woudn't be too concerned.

3-cross is better IMHO on a 32h hub for managing torsional breaking loads and having less stress on the hub flanges. Some wheel builders go 2-cross for wider bracing angles. Its not a deal breaker.

I wouldn't recommend re-lacing with a new lacing pattern. This will just ovalise the spoke holes, that will create more play at the spoke head and stress on the flanges.

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Re: Custom Wheel Builds

Postby jackthelad » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:26 pm

MelodyWheels wrote:I woudn't be too concerned.

3-cross is better IMHO on a 32h hub for managing torsional breaking loads and having less stress on the hub flanges. Some wheel builders go 2-cross for wider bracing angles. Its not a deal breaker.

I wouldn't recommend re-lacing with a new lacing pattern. This will just ovalise the spoke holes, that will create more play at the spoke head and stress on the flanges.


Thank you, Just never had 2 cross, since i've had wheels made for 20 years .. was just odd noticing it
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