Life of carbon frames
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Life of carbon frames
Postby Simmo » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:55 pm
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Re: Life of carbon frames
Postby Tim » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:30 pm
If it hasn't cracked yet it probably won't in the future. Unless you crash it.
Any of the broken carbon frames I've seen have cracked within the first year or two, including one of my own.
Who X-rays bike frames as a routine maintenance item?
Wait till it's 20 years old or clocks 200,000km's. I'm being serious.
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Re: Life of carbon frames
Postby AUbicycles » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:39 pm
As carbon fiber on a bike is usually built to flex in certain areas, particularly on the seat and chain stays this can result in surface cracks of the paint / coating (e.g at the Bottom bracket joint and other connection points) which don't actually affect the integrity of the frame. The superficial cracks can appear at any time.
For some peace of mind, bike manufactures typically overcompensate (that is another debate in itself). Unless that series of bikes have already displayed a tendency to fail during to design flaws or production flaws - as Tim has suggested, you can ride until the cows come home.
But if you want a new bike... the rule is n+1
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Re: Life of carbon frames
Postby mjbmikeb2 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:25 pm
You can buy the proper stuff from engineering suppliers, or if you want to be really cheap, squeeze out the dye from a $2 invisible ink security marker pen and use the built in LED to inspect for cracks.
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Re: Life of carbon frames
Postby AUbicycles » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:19 am
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Re: Life of carbon frames
Postby Comedian » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:23 pm
Yes, wouldn't work for interior de-lamination. That's why people use ultrasonic and x-ray testing. It's also worth noting that superficial cracks can cause damage into the lower layers if left over time.AUbicycles wrote:@mjbmikeb2 - good idea, thanks for sharing. I am sure this would pick up superficial cracks, though am wondering if this can help locating and identifying more serious fractures.
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Re: Life of carbon frames
Postby robbo mcs » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:10 pm
http://www.smh.com.au/business/consumer ... ss41s.html
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Re: Life of carbon frames
Postby Comedian » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:14 pm
That's a very interesting article. To me what I found interesting was that he basically made the same points that I have made in here before. Yes, composite aircraft parts last the life of the airframe but bikes aren't planes...robbo mcs wrote:Interesting article on ageing parts. Raises lots of questions, but doesn't really answer them
http://www.smh.com.au/business/consumer ... ss41s.html
That's why personally I think CF isn't an ideal material for bikes - but clearly it's good enough if you either don't do many miles or change your bikes pretty regularly. It's probably the ultimate material if you can just grab another one out of the sponsors truck if you break one.However, Peter Bourke, general manager of Bicycle Industries Australia, said it would be near-impossible to replicate that same standard with a bicycle.
"In the aerospace industry every use of every part is documented. There is no control over how the bicycle is treated, how the bicycle is used, how the bicycle is stored, how the bicycle is transported," Mr Bourke said.
"There are so many variables it is actually very hard to identify a safe life of a part of a bike."
CF just doesn't perform well with impacts and they are just part of being a bike. A mate has a high mileage (35k) specialized which had a chain break and turn and heavily "munge" the BB area. A little while later he picked up a piece of wire in the spokes which scratched up the inside seat stay pretty badly. He's thinking he'll write it off .. another one for landfill.
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Re: Life of carbon frames
Postby duncanm » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:51 pm
This, I'm afraid, demonstrates a fundamental flaw in our coronial inquiry systemrobbo mcs wrote:Interesting article on ageing parts. Raises lots of questions, but doesn't really answer them
http://www.smh.com.au/business/consumer ... ss41s.html
The coroner always feels like she has to recommend something, anything; no matter how impractical or useless; when in reality, what occurred was a tragic accident that could not (reasonably) have been prevented.
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Re: Life of carbon frames
Postby duncanm » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:00 pm
Life of resins in high UV environments (think carbon masts on yachts, exposed 24/7) is certainly well understood.AUbicycles wrote: Degradation or fading from UV exposure is a problem of the resin but it would take a Carbon Fiber expert to contribute as to whether or how it may affect structural integrity. It is still early days in carbon fiber bike product that trends of long-term use and lifespan is open .
Damage to epoxy from UV exposure is easily mitigated by the appropriate clear coat or paint.
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Re: Life of carbon frames
Postby Comedian » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:34 pm
The issue that we have to watch with this kind of thing is that the UV in QLD is vastly different to the UV in other parts of the world. It's in another realm worse..duncanm wrote:Life of resins in high UV environments (think carbon masts on yachts, exposed 24/7) is certainly well understood.AUbicycles wrote: Degradation or fading from UV exposure is a problem of the resin but it would take a Carbon Fiber expert to contribute as to whether or how it may affect structural integrity. It is still early days in carbon fiber bike product that trends of long-term use and lifespan is open .
Damage to epoxy from UV exposure is easily mitigated by the appropriate clear coat or paint.
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Re: Life of carbon frames
Postby duncanm » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:54 pm
you're right - no boats in Qld.Comedian wrote:The issue that we have to watch with this kind of thing is that the UV in QLD is vastly different to the UV in other parts of the world. It's in another realm worse..duncanm wrote:Life of resins in high UV environments (think carbon masts on yachts, exposed 24/7) is certainly well understood.AUbicycles wrote: Degradation or fading from UV exposure is a problem of the resin but it would take a Carbon Fiber expert to contribute as to whether or how it may affect structural integrity. It is still early days in carbon fiber bike product that trends of long-term use and lifespan is open .
Damage to epoxy from UV exposure is easily mitigated by the appropriate clear coat or paint.
Just don't leave your raw carbon bike out in the sun all year.. and if you like the carbon look, make sure its sprayed with a proper UV blocking clear coat.
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Re: Life of carbon frames
Postby Toyopet » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:52 pm
But if a carbon frame is stronger to begin with (compared to other materials) I guess it should at least be stronger in the long term.
I always go back to this video, comparing the strength of the same frame made from two different materials.
https://www.pinkbike.com/video/243228/
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Re: Life of carbon frames
Postby AUbicycles » Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:10 am
How can you be sure? They discovered that they needed UV stabilisers and both the resins can be stabilised and the correct clear coat used to protect the resin from UV degradation. As a rider you can hope (or even expect) the bike to be protected... and with the big brands it should, but on the other hand you can't be entirely sure.duncanm wrote:Just don't leave your raw carbon bike out in the sun all year.. and if you like the carbon look, make sure its sprayed with a proper UV blocking clear coat.
Carbon frames are designed to be strong/stiff in certain direction and compliant in others. This all comes back to the carbon layup and the selection and combination of the weaves. This also means there will be big differences between series. As an example, top-end bike moulds can end up as the mould for the mid-range and then lower-range carbon fiber bikes however the layup and material selection also typically changes.Toyopet wrote:Will a carbon frame degrade faster over time compared to other materials?.... I don't know.
But if a carbon frame is stronger to begin with (compared to other materials) I guess it should at least be stronger in the long term.
It means that I expect to see a lot of differences in the actual lifespan of carbon fiber bikes whereas an alloy bike provides a bit more clarity if you know the alloy grade along with a visual inspection.
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Re: Life of carbon frames
Postby Comedian » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:48 am
Exactly! What if the bike you get is tested in Europe? What if the UV coatings are fine there? I've got a number of cycling products made by big brands that can't hack the UV in QLD.AUbicycles wrote:How can you be sure? They discovered that they needed UV stabilisers and both the resins can be stabilised and the correct clear coat used to protect the resin from UV degradation. As a rider you can hope (or even expect) the bike to be protected... and with the big brands it should, but on the other hand you can't be entirely sure.duncanm wrote:Just don't leave your raw carbon bike out in the sun all year.. and if you like the carbon look, make sure its sprayed with a proper UV blocking clear coat.
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Re: Life of carbon frames
Postby Kronos » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:19 am
Carbon is also brittle and suffers from over tightening fatigue like anything, it's not a wonder material in this sense either. Watch what happens when some gorilla over tightens a clamp on a particular part of your frame, bars, seat post, etc... from not using a toque wrench. The carbon will generally crack at the point because of over tightening. This type of issue doesn't generally affect alloys (they bend before they snap.) This is before we talk about what happens when we drop carbon in any sort of reasonable speed crash. It breaks and becomes cost ineffective to repair alloys generally can be repaired although its not generally best to reheat aluminum repeatedly.
The short and the long of it is that this "isn't an I hate carbon" post. I see lots of value in carbon bikes, although I don't currently own one (personal choices I've gone back to steel and aluminum) I'm not being a retro grouch either. What I am saying is this:
Carbon is prone to brittle and stress failures, it isn't some wonder material.
The problem with unidirectional tests is that they don't represent the forces of reality. When was the last time you excreted force in one direction when you crashed? Alloys have the weaker maximum strength yield overall, but the problem as a post explains on the video above is that alloy will handle mostly everything, its a good all round material that is as strong as you need it to be in all directions that force can be excerpted. It is the good all around material. On top of that a failure on a carbon bike is likely to be catastrophic a failure in alloy composites (steel/aluminum) a failure is likely lead to a bent component but not a catastrophic failure. Herein lies point number two:
A failure in an alloy bike generally leads to a bike that is still ridable in a crash (into rocks, off road, potholes, off ledges, etc..) A catastrophic failure on a carbon bike in the same situation may cost you your life. How often do we see a bike that is a complete write off after just one reasonable speed crash on a carbon bike? The steel or aluminum bike will generally survive and can also be repaired cost effectively.
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Re: Life of carbon frames
Postby AUbicycles » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:50 am
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Re: Life of carbon frames
Postby Kronos » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:07 am
Putting all things aside, ride whichever bike you think suits yourself, but all bikes have a finite limit, particularly from crashes or abuse. The problem is if you're going to go out and crash a bike, I would suspect it would generally be safer and more survivable on an alloy bike off the top of my head, but I could be wrong and sometimes am wrong.
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Re: Life of carbon frames
Postby duncanm » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:21 pm
I'm struggling to see the difference here.AUbicycles wrote: How can you be sure? They discovered that they needed UV stabilisers and both the resins can be stabilised and the correct clear coat used to protect the resin from UV degradation. As a rider you can hope (or even expect) the bike to be protected... and with the big brands it should, but on the other hand you can't be entirely sure.
...
It means that I expect to see a lot of differences in the actual lifespan of carbon fiber bikes whereas an alloy bike provides a bit more clarity if you know the alloy grade along with a visual inspection.
If you're really concerned about the lifespan of your carbon bike, then buy one that's painted (not clear coat).
btw - UV degradation of both clear-coat and epoxy is fairly obvious upon visual inspection.
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Re: Life of carbon frames
Postby AUbicycles » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:52 am
It is an interesting debate and I think the verdict is still out. My white painted carbon fiber bike is fading/yellowing - is it the clear coat or is it the paint? How much protection does the paint offer. Can my bike be compared with my neighbours bike... a different brand, same age white but no fading?duncanm wrote:I'm struggling to see the difference here.
If you're really concerned about the lifespan of your carbon bike, then buy one that's painted (not clear coat).
btw - UV degradation of both clear-coat and epoxy is fairly obvious upon visual inspection.
I am expecting that a lot more carbon fiber bikes enter the second hand market so for the buyers there is far more uncertainty about the integrity... alloy is far simpler to judge.
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Re: Life of carbon frames
Postby RonK » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:34 am
I think you are are overstating the UV issue. How much time is a bike actually exposed to high levels of UV radiation? Not very much unless you permanently park it outside.Comedian wrote:Exactly! What if the bike you get is tested in Europe? What if the UV coatings are fine there? I've got a number of cycling products made by big brands that can't hack the UV in QLD.AUbicycles wrote:How can you be sure? They discovered that they needed UV stabilisers and both the resins can be stabilised and the correct clear coat used to protect the resin from UV degradation. As a rider you can hope (or even expect) the bike to be protected... and with the big brands it should, but on the other hand you can't be entirely sure.duncanm wrote:Just don't leave your raw carbon bike out in the sun all year.. and if you like the carbon look, make sure its sprayed with a proper UV blocking clear coat.
As a Brisbane resident myself, most of my rides take place in the early morning (as is the custom amongst most serious cyclists here), and the longest are done in around 3 hours max, so the bike is usually back in the garage by 9 am, well before UV levels have become significant.
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Re: Life of carbon frames
Postby duncanm » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:47 am
- Carbon (including clear-coated) in 24/7 high-UV exposure conditions has a long history in other applications. Yachting, wind turbine blades, aero, etc
- in the yachting industry, there's well established practices for inspecting and re-coating UV-affected clear coat & carbon
- inspection for UV damage is simple and effective.
- even when UV damage to epoxy is visible, loss of strength of the composite structure is in the single-digit %
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Re: Life of carbon frames
Postby Comedian » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:38 pm
Interesting. I agree with you.. I certainly try and get my rides done early. However I have seem to have this problem where big name european shorts fade and fall apart in an absurdly short time frame. They go white everywhere that isn't covered. I've seen other people around with the same problem, yet I've never heard of it happening further south.. Anyway.. maybe the UV coatings on frames are up to it these days. Certainly you see yachts and the like out in more UV.. I guess it just comes back to whether your frame has been coated and if the coating itself is durable. Some paints have specify that their UV protection only lasts 12 months .. others a lifetime.RonK wrote:I think you are are overstating the UV issue. How much time is a bike actually exposed to high levels of UV radiation? Not very much unless you permanently park it outside.Comedian wrote:Exactly! What if the bike you get is tested in Europe? What if the UV coatings are fine there? I've got a number of cycling products made by big brands that can't hack the UV in QLD.AUbicycles wrote:
How can you be sure? They discovered that they needed UV stabilisers and both the resins can be stabilised and the correct clear coat used to protect the resin from UV degradation. As a rider you can hope (or even expect) the bike to be protected... and with the big brands it should, but on the other hand you can't be entirely sure.
As a Brisbane resident myself, most of my rides take place in the early morning (as is the custom amongst most serious cyclists here), and the longest are done in around 3 hours max, so the bike is usually back in the garage by 9 am, well before UV levels have become significant.
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Re: Life of carbon frames
Postby RonK » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:32 pm
Perhaps it's the way you wash your shorts. But my ASSOS shorts have lasted for quite a few years despite being subjected to commercial washing machines and dryers while touring. They have certainly faded from black but to a brownish black, not at all white.Comedian wrote:Interesting. I agree with you.. I certainly try and get my rides done early. However I have seem to have this problem where big name european shorts fade and fall apart in an absurdly short time frame. They go white everywhere that isn't covered. I've seen other people around with the same problem, yet I've never heard of it happening further south.. Anyway.. maybe the UV coatings on frames are up to it these days. Certainly you see yachts and the like out in more UV.. I guess it just comes back to whether your frame has been coated and if the coating itself is durable. Some paints have specify that their UV protection only lasts 12 months .. others a lifetime.RonK wrote:I think you are are overstating the UV issue. How much time is a bike actually exposed to high levels of UV radiation? Not very much unless you permanently park it outside.Comedian wrote:
Exactly! What if the bike you get is tested in Europe? What if the UV coatings are fine there? I've got a number of cycling products made by big brands that can't hack the UV in QLD.
As a Brisbane resident myself, most of my rides take place in the early morning (as is the custom amongst most serious cyclists here), and the longest are done in around 3 hours max, so the bike is usually back in the garage by 9 am, well before UV levels have become significant.
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Re: Life of carbon frames
Postby Comedian » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:03 pm
Well it's only the bits that aren't covered by my jersey that have faded, and I wash the top and bottom at the same time.RonK wrote: Perhaps it's the way you wash your shorts. But my ASSOS shorts have lasted for quite a few years despite being subjected to commercial washing machines and dryers while touring. They have certainly faded from black but to a brownish black, not at all white.
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