Graphite / Graphene frames ?

User avatar
10speedsemiracer
Posts: 4904
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:38 pm
Location: Back on the Tools .. when I'm not in the office

Graphite / Graphene frames ?

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:12 am

I'm not a materials expert, and have only basic knowledge when it comes to materials and metallurgy etc however having observed the ongoing arguments regarding frame materials over the years, I've been wondering....why haven't we seen a Graphite composite frame ?

Don't get me wrong, I am a steel frame tragic and probably will be until, well until. This is just idle curiosity (and avoiding work).

Also, this is the album that most makes me remember the old days of refurbing old 10sp bikes in the garage. Thought I'd share....




Hoping someone with more knowledge on the topic (the Graphite, not the 1976 classic album) can answer the question...
Last edited by 10speedsemiracer on Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
Campagnolo for show, SunTour for go

User avatar
Duck!
Expert
Posts: 9858
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 8:21 pm
Location: On The Tools

Re: Graphite / Graphene frames ?

Postby Duck! » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:28 am

Graphite and graphene, although like carbon fibre variants of carbon atoms, are different on a molecular structure level, which makes them unsuitable for primary structural use. Where graphene does work, and is beginning to be used for, is as a kind of filler in the resin used to bid carbon fibres together. In much the same way carbon nano-tubes have been used for 10 years or more, the microscopic carbon dust helps bind the resin to the structural fibres, fill voids between the fibres and give the resin itself greater cohesive strength. Ultimately it gives the composite layup extra impact resistance, as it helps tie the resin and fibres together.

Because of its molecular structure, we will not see frames produced purely from graphene composite, but as it becomes more widely produced, we will see a greater number of manufacturers adding it to their carbon fibre composites.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

User avatar
10speedsemiracer
Posts: 4904
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:38 pm
Location: Back on the Tools .. when I'm not in the office

Re: Graphite / Graphene frames ?

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:33 am

So in filling voids, it creates a more uniform structure, thus enhancing resilience?

Similar effect (but obviously not process) to shot-peening metal (?)
Campagnolo for show, SunTour for go

User avatar
AUbicycles
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 15583
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:14 am
Location: Sydney & Frankfurt
Contact:

Re: Graphite / Graphene frames ?

Postby AUbicycles » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:30 am

Graphene has been touted as a wonder material and I put together an article on this here: http://www.bicycles.net.au/2016/01/is-g ... buzz-word/


It is still not really production ready, and the graphene you see marketed is the dust additive which arguably gives you a far greater psychological advantage than an actual performance advantage.

For actual use on a bike it would need to become cheaper and better understood, so likely the automotive industry (particularly racing) will show the way.

But it is the properties of acting as power storage thag are fascinating so we may see sandwich solutions, in combination with carbon fibre or more composites before we see any genuine full graphene frames.
Cycling is in my BNA

User avatar
10speedsemiracer
Posts: 4904
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:38 pm
Location: Back on the Tools .. when I'm not in the office

Re: Graphite / Graphene frames ?

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:00 pm

Interesting. Tks Duck & AU....
Campagnolo for show, SunTour for go

User avatar
Howzat
Posts: 850
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:08 pm

Re: Graphite / Graphene frames ?

Postby Howzat » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:29 pm

Too much information. I want my one-atom-thick graphene bike frame, and I'm a reasonable chap, so I will wait until next year for delivery, if necessary.

User avatar
kb
Posts: 2570
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:22 pm

Re: Graphite / Graphene frames ?

Postby kb » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:52 pm

Howzat wrote:Too much information. I want my one-atom-thick graphene bike frame, and I'm a reasonable chap, so I will wait until next year for delivery, if necessary.
While you’re waiting... I’ve heard of this really neat technology where they somehow mix carbon and iron :-)
Image

User avatar
Ross
Posts: 5742
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:53 pm

Re: Graphite / Graphene frames ?

Postby Ross » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:25 pm

Duck! wrote:Graphite and graphene, although like carbon fibre variants of carbon atoms, are different on a molecular structure level, which makes them unsuitable for primary structural use. Where graphene does work, and is beginning to be used for, is as a kind of filler in the resin used to bid carbon fibres together. In much the same way carbon nano-tubes have been used for 10 years or more, the microscopic carbon dust helps bind the resin to the structural fibres, fill voids between the fibres and give the resin itself greater cohesive strength. Ultimately it gives the composite layup extra impact resistance, as it helps tie the resin and fibres together.

Because of its molecular structure, we will not see frames produced purely from graphene composite, but as it becomes more widely produced, we will see a greater number of manufacturers adding it to their carbon fibre composites.
So what's with Graphite Tuff wheels? They first came out in the early 1980s, a mate of mine had a set on his bike.

http://www.alansbmx.com/1341570/product ... wheel.aspx

djw47
Posts: 528
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:57 am
Location: The Dandenongs

Re: Graphite / Graphene frames ?

Postby djw47 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:43 am

Howzat wrote:Too much information. I want my one-atom-thick graphene bike frame, and I'm a reasonable chap, so I will wait until next year for delivery, if necessary.
If you're waiting until next year, you may as well get the nuclear fusion powered ebike version.

User avatar
AUbicycles
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 15583
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:14 am
Location: Sydney & Frankfurt
Contact:

Re: Graphite / Graphene frames ?

Postby AUbicycles » Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:19 am

Graphite is a naturally occuring resource which has been used for pencils and heavy industry since industrialisation.

The first graphene samples were extracted from raw graphite.

Graphite can be used in resins to provide <marketing>superior strength and advanced performance benefits</marketing>.

It is your job as the consumer to differentiate between the marketing and reality.
Cycling is in my BNA

ironhanglider
Posts: 2842
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:44 pm
Location: Middle East, Melbourne

Re: Graphite / Graphene frames ?

Postby ironhanglider » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:17 pm

I think the next application of carbon will be the use of buckyballs in an uber expensive lubricant. I can hear the spin doctors winding up already to tell us that your chain will be so good it is almost frictionless and it picks up less dirt too...

Cheers,

Cameron

User avatar
AUbicycles
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 15583
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:14 am
Location: Sydney & Frankfurt
Contact:

Re: Graphite / Graphene frames ?

Postby AUbicycles » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:11 pm

Here is a new article on graphene production (which is fairly ineffecient) and also some quotes from Vittoria on their use.

https://cyclingindustry.news/mass-produ ... akthrough/
Cycling is in my BNA

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users