Shimano RD-5800 (GS version) tuning/adjustment

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MichaelB
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Shimano RD-5800 (GS version) tuning/adjustment

Postby MichaelB » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:42 am

Hiya,

Lately have been having issues with the RD setup. Have never been able to get it perfect across the range, where It'll either shift well up & down for the top 2/3rd of the cassette or the bottom 2/3rds, or some mix in between.

Currently, want to hold on to a gear and shifts down after a few seconds.

Have downloaded the Shimano Road Rear Der DM from the Techdocs site and learnt something there (the cable clamping on the SS & GS RD's are different (see p 13) :shock:

Anyway, going to try following their instructions, but does anyone have any better tips ?

Oh, has a new chain and 11-28 cassette too, so that's not a problem, and cables are only 4 months old.

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Re: Shimano RD-5800 (GS version) tuning/adjustment

Postby Duck! » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:29 pm

Check the wear on the upper jockey wheel bushings, althougj unless it's been seriously abused shouldn't be too worn yet. Thhe pulley should have about 1.5mm lateral float, but should have minimal ability to tilt on its bush.
Last edited by Duck! on Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Shimano RD-5800 (GS version) tuning/adjustment

Postby kb » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:40 pm

Sounds like that’s it as you’d get a slightly different pull. If I’m having issues tuning I like to feel how easily the cable pulls by hand. Helps rule out “stickyness” whether from cables, housing, routing, dislodged ferrules etc.
Image

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Re: Shimano RD-5800 (GS version) tuning/adjustment

Postby MichaelB » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:00 pm

Cheers Duck!, I'll check that, but RD is pretty new, but still, worth checking.

kb - I'm not sure how I've got the cable routed, but will check now that there is a difference.

Have a new cable as well, so may try that as well, but will wait for them new fandangled 4th hand cable pliers that are meant to be on their way.

Just to clarify the steps in the DM, and some are a bit unclear. Starting at Page 12 (link above) ;

Top adjustment : This is done with no cable and no chain fitted ?

Where to route the inner cable (per p13) : Got this one sussed :D

Low adjustment (per p14) : So how 'tight' does the cable have to be ? With the adjusters (on RD and in-line), should they be wound in as far as possible to allow for cable stretch ?

Adjusting B-tension adjust bolt (p13) : Chain gets fitted here. But doesn't the chain prevent the upper pulley from touching the sprocket ? Or are the teeth on the sprocket long enough to make this possible (never really had a close look at this one !!). Have never actually done this step :shock:

SIS adjustment Step 1 (p14 still) : The wording "Then, wile operating the lever just enough to close the gap in the lever, tern the crank arm" - does this mean "take up the slack in the lever but not actually start the movement to change to the next cog " :?: To get the adjustment, do you then turn the adjuster anti-clockwise (when looking from the rear) to effectively add more cable tension ?

Now, this is where I get REALLY confused !

When shifting to 3rd (p15) : Is this done when actually shifting the lever to effect a gear change ? Or is this text what I am describing above ? That is, when you have taken up the slack with the lever, if it shifts to 3rd, rotate adjuster clockwise (until it returns to the 2nd sprocket), but if you get no noise, rotate the adjuster anti-clockwise until you get no noise ? {That makes sense to me ...}


Last question. All of these adjustments are done in the small Chainring. So once the setup is done, then you don't repeat for the large chainring ?

Thanks.

Time for a coffee, my brain hurts :oops:

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Re: Shimano RD-5800 (GS version) tuning/adjustment

Postby kb » Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:07 pm

MichaelB wrote:Cheers Duck!, I'll check that, but RD is pretty new, but still, worth checking.

kb - I'm not sure how I've got the cable routed, but will check now that there is a difference.

An example for clarity.. I’ve come across shifting issues when wrapping bar tape if the outers aren’t carefully arranged and secured beforehand. Probably not your case though as you’d expect problems shifting to smaller cogs (directional) rather than top end or bottom end working (range).
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Re: Shimano RD-5800 (GS version) tuning/adjustment

Postby MichaelB » Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:33 pm

Cable is in right spot per the instruction manual (phew)

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Re: Shimano RD-5800 (GS version) tuning/adjustment

Postby Duck! » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:36 pm

MichaelB wrote:Just to clarify the steps in the DM, and some are a bit unclear. Starting at Page 12 (link above) ;

Top adjustment : This is done with no cable and no chain fitted ?

Don't you just love "Japlish"? :mrgreen:

While not essential, this step is better done initially without chain, because you can get a better view of the precise alignment. The recommended alignment is with the centre of the jockey wheel teeth aligned with the outer face of the small (top) sprocket. You can better gauge this without the chain in the way.

Where to route the inner cable (per p13) : Got this one sussed :D

Yep, new models make it easy, they have an arrow mark to tell you where the cable goes. :-D

Low adjustment (per p14) : So how 'tight' does the cable have to be ? With the adjusters (on RD and in-line), should they be wound in as far as possible to allow for cable stretch ?
Wind the adjusters out a few turns before connecting the cable, so you have some room to back them off if you get a bit excited pulling initial tension on. Set the Low screw so the jockey wheel and low sprocket tooth centres align. The shifter should have a small safety margin of play so as not to blow its guts up if you try to go for another shift that isn't there, and definitely shouldn't feel like you're really fighting to get it into the last gear position, which is an indication that the limit is in too far.

Adjusting B-tension adjust bolt (p13) : Chain gets fitted here. (a) But doesn't the chain prevent the upper pulley from touching the sprocket ? (b) Or are the teeth on the sprocket long enough to make this possible (never really had a close look at this one !!). Have never actually done this step :shock:

(a) No. (b) The jockey wheel teeth extend to roughly half of the depth of the chain link, the sprocket teeth are taller and pretty much fully extend through the depth of the chain. If the B tension/clearance is insufficient, the sprocket and jockey wheel teeth will make contact, and if you're running an out-of-spec sized large sprocket, prevent the chain from even shifting to the big one. This adjustment is most crucial in your lowest gear i.e small ring/big sprocket; when you're in the big ring the derailleur cage is pulled close to its fullest forward extent, so the offset pulley in relation to the cage pivot causes the pulley to drop away from the sprocket slightly.

SIS adjustment Step 1 (p14 still) : The wording "Then, wile operating the lever just enough to close the gap in the lever, tern the crank arm" - does this mean "take up the slack in the lever but not actually start the movement to change to the next cog " :?: To get the adjustment, do you then turn the adjuster anti-clockwise (when looking from the rear) to effectively add more cable tension ?

Now, this is where I get REALLY confused !

When shifting to 3rd (p15) : Is this done when actually shifting the lever to effect a gear change ? Or is this text what I am describing above ? That is, when you have taken up the slack with the lever, if it shifts to 3rd, rotate adjuster clockwise (until it returns to the 2nd sprocket), but if you get no noise, rotate the adjuster anti-clockwise until you get no noise ? {That makes sense to me ...}
This is where the Japlish really kicks in & needs a fair bit of interpretation. What they're actually trying to say is shift from the smallest to the 2nd sprocket, BUT there should be enough cable tension to cause the chain to contact the third sprocket and make some noise. If it tries to overshift, back the cable off until no noise is heard. If no noise is heard initially after completing the shift (which we'd all normally consider a proper shift), wind out the barrel adjuster to increase tension until you hear the chain make contact on the third sprocket, then ease tension just to the point that noise in no longer heard.


Last question. All of these adjustments are done in the small Chainring. So once the setup is done, then you don't repeat for the large chainring ?
The main reason is that at this position the derailleur is at its most retracted, with greatest wrap around the sprocket & pulley. Get the settings right in the small ring and shifting to the big shouldn't really change anything.

Inconsistent tuning is a sypmtom of something a bit haywire in the cable run causing too much friction. Only thing I can think of that hasn't been covered yet is that if the cables are internal through the frame, make sure they're not crossed inside. A telltale symptom is rear gear tuning changing depending on which chainring you're in from the different front cable tension pulling against the rear cable.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Shimano RD-5800 (GS version) tuning/adjustment

Postby MichaelB » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:35 am

Many, many thanks Duck. It took me a few reads through and typing out the questions helped.

Thanks for the clarification :-)

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Re: Shimano RD-5800 (GS version) tuning/adjustment

Postby MichaelB » Tue May 01, 2018 8:13 am

OK, followed the instructions and it ended up a bit better.

One thing I did find out was the pivot (or B-axle as it's referred to in the tyech-docs) was a bit stiff, so need to pull that apart and clean/lube it.

Will put in some new jockey wheels at the same time.

What are the best options ?

Stick with the std 5800 bushed versions, or slap in some Ultegra/DA units with bearings ? Not gonna go ceramic bearings with carbon wheels to save 1/2 a gram, but happy to spend a bit more if bearings are better.

Cheers

Michael

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Re: Shimano RD-5800 (GS version) tuning/adjustment

Postby Duck! » Tue May 01, 2018 11:28 am

My favourites are the 6700 Ultegra pulleys - theoretically 10-sp. but completely compatible. The top pulley is still bushed, but the bushings are ceramic so pretty well bombproof. The lower runs on a bearing for extra smoothness. I find the tiny bearings a bit too fragile for the side loading imposed during shifting.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Shimano RD-5800 (GS version) tuning/adjustment

Postby MichaelB » Tue May 01, 2018 2:26 pm

Cheers, I'll look for some.

EDIT : I've also noticed that there are MTB ones that are compatible too, but the depth of the teeth is greater (when compared to the road jockey wheels) - is this better or not ?

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Re: Shimano RD-5800 (GS version) tuning/adjustment

Postby MichaelB » Tue May 01, 2018 3:29 pm

6800 pulley set (Y5YC98140)
Image

DA9100 (Y5ZR98010)
Image

And then to make it more confusing ... Different ones for 5800 short & long cage ....

5800 SS (Y5YE98080)
Image

5800 GS (Y5YE98090)
Image

So you can clearly see in some of the combinations, one of the pulleys has slightly longer teeth, and it's interesting that the 9100 & 5800GS set is like this (mind you, no idea if the pics are correct, but the part numbers and different applications match the Shimano tech docs [links in the SJS website], and it may be because in the lower pulley, the overall width is longer [bolt is 12mm long vs 10mm for the short cage].

So, the question now becomes, are the PULLEY's in the GS models different, or is the cage a bit thicker, and hence the longer bolt.

AND, why the longer teeth ? And which one goes where (the longer teeth one, that is) ?

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Re: Shimano RD-5800 (GS version) tuning/adjustment

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Tue May 01, 2018 6:07 pm

Duck! wrote:My favourites are the 6700 Ultegra pulleys - theoretically 10-sp. but completely compatible. The top pulley is still bushed, but the bushings are ceramic so pretty well bombproof. The lower runs on a bearing for extra smoothness. I find the tiny bearings a bit too fragile for the side loading imposed during shifting.


Just a related question, are there any aftermarket pulleys that you've found to be viable alternatives to Shimano units ?
Mmm, SunTour

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Re: Shimano RD-5800 (GS version) tuning/adjustment

Postby Duck! » Tue May 01, 2018 7:08 pm

No. The key thing with the Shimano units, both bushed and on bearings, is that the top (guide) pulley has a small amount of designed-in lateral float which helps take away some of the stress from shifting, although as noted above I still find the bearings suffer reduced durability.

Aftermarket ones (and some other brand factory-spec ones) universally omit this float, so they eat bearings and blow the pulley bodies apart.

The older-spec ceramic bushed Ultegra pulleys may not run quite as smoothly as bearings (but a lot of the drag is between the outer covers and rubber seal rings rather than the bushes themselves), but they're incredibly hard-wearing, and you'll wear the teeth down rather than wear the bushes out.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Shimano RD-5800 (GS version) tuning/adjustment

Postby Duck! » Tue May 01, 2018 7:14 pm

MichaelB wrote:
So you can clearly see in some of the combinations, one of the pulleys has slightly longer teeth, and it's interesting that the 9100 & 5800GS set is like this (mind you, no idea if the pics are correct, but the part numbers and different applications match the Shimano tech docs [links in the SJS website], and it may be because in the lower pulley, the overall width is longer [bolt is 12mm long vs 10mm for the short cage].

So, the question now becomes, are the PULLEY's in the GS models different, or is the cage a bit thicker, and hence the longer bolt.

AND, why the longer teeth ? And which one goes where (the longer teeth one, that is) ?

As far as I can tell, the cage plates are a bit thicker around the lower pulley, dictating the longer bolt, as the pulley thicknesses & bush lengths are the same.

The longer teeth are on the guide (top) pulley. Without any official explanation, my surmise is that with the advent of larger cassettes, as you shift to the smaller sprockets the clearance between the pulley and sprocket increases, allowing a bit more chain flex when shifting, so the longer teeth help overcome that.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Shimano RD-5800 (GS version) tuning/adjustment

Postby MichaelB » Tue May 01, 2018 8:01 pm

Ta muchly.

Shimano genuine parts it is then :D

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Re: Shimano RD-5800 (GS version) tuning/adjustment

Postby Tim » Tue May 01, 2018 8:14 pm

The discussion of pulley wheels is interesting. I had no idea 10 speed 6700 pulley wheels work on 11 speed 5800 derailleurs.
I'm trying to improve the shifting crispness on my 11 speed 9000 rear derailleur (same generation as 5800) and suspect 20,000+ km old jockey wheels may be part of the problem.
Presumably 6700 pulleys will work on my 9000 derailleur?

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Re: Shimano RD-5800 (GS version) tuning/adjustment

Postby Duck! » Tue May 01, 2018 8:42 pm

Sure will!
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Shimano RD-5800 (GS version) tuning/adjustment

Postby Tim » Tue May 01, 2018 8:58 pm

Excellent!
Thanks Duck. Divulging trade secrets. :D
While we're at it. :D
My 9000 RD is shifting perfectly at the top and bottom ends of the cassette. It's the gear shifts on the middle and most frequently used 2 or 3 cogs that aren't happening with the same sort of crispness as my other bikes, or as it once did (from memory). There is a slight amount of chain skip on shifting. Not much, but not as snappy as it should be.
Recent new 11-25 cassette, sm. 39t chainring, chain and cables (inner and outer).
I'm a bit suss on the quality of the cable inner, SRAM 1.1mm uncoated stainless, although these inners are working perfectly on a 6800 and 7900 RD. Might be time to cough-up for some Optislick cables.
Any thoughts?
Maybe the 9000 shifters develop a bit of slop over time, though 20K km's isn't huge mileage?

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Re: Shimano RD-5800 (GS version) tuning/adjustment

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Tue May 01, 2018 10:46 pm

Tim wrote:Excellent!
Thanks Duck. Divulging trade secrets. :D
While we're at it. :D
My 9000 RD is shifting perfectly at the top and bottom ends of the cassette. It's the gear shifts on the middle and most frequently used 2 or 3 cogs that aren't happening with the same sort of crispness as my other bikes, or as it once did (from memory). There is a slight amount of chain skip on shifting. Not much, but not as snappy as it should be.
Recent new 11-25 cassette, sm. 39t chainring, chain and cables (inner and outer).
I'm a bit suss on the quality of the cable inner, SRAM 1.1mm uncoated stainless, although these inners are working perfectly on a 6800 and 7900 RD. Might be time to cough-up for some Optislick cables.
Any thoughts?
Maybe the 9000 shifters develop a bit of slop over time, though 20K km's isn't huge mileage?


I'd be leaning towards the cable housing, assuming everything was re-tuned for new cables/chain/cassette.
Mmm, SunTour

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Re: Shimano RD-5800 (GS version) tuning/adjustment

Postby Duck! » Tue May 01, 2018 10:47 pm

Uncoated cables are pretty ordinary on any hidden-cable shifter system due to the convoluted routing, but Shimano's 11-sp. shifters are less draggy than 7900 & related 10-sp, so should be more tolerant of unslick cables.

Did you change cassette range? If you've gone to a tighter cassette than previous, the B-tension screw might need backing off a bit to bring the top pulley closer to the sprockets. If the whole lot bar shifters has been replaced, it could just be a matter of things, particularly cables, settling in & needing a tune-up. Shifter guts generally take 15-20 years to go off, so I doubt they're the problem.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Shimano RD-5800 (GS version) tuning/adjustment

Postby Tim » Wed May 02, 2018 5:39 am

Thanks 10speed. and Duck.
I'll check the cable inner is lodged firmly in the shifter receiving end. I once dislodged a cable inner and ferrule from the shifter housing whilst taping the cables up to the bars. That caused similar shifting troubles.
The cassette range is the same as last time. B screw is backed out to the point where it barely touches the frame stop, if it touches at all.
I'll give it all the once-over tonight.

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Re: Shimano RD-5800 (GS version) tuning/adjustment

Postby MichaelB » Thu May 03, 2018 11:49 am

Well, i ordered some DA wheels to replace what I had, and then cancelled the order the next morning (successfully).
The thinking was , I only got the long cage for the 32t cassette for the euro trip. My fitness has been improving and hence thought why not, for a bit extra, get a new R8000 short cage RD that copes fine with the 28t at the moment, but can go to 30t with no drama ( and more than likely 32t).

So that’s what I’m gonna do :D

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Re: Shimano RD-5800 (GS version) tuning/adjustment

Postby MichaelB » Thu May 03, 2018 12:08 pm

Or o could spend even more and get some pink Ceramic speed ones .... :roll:

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Re: Shimano RD-5800 (GS version) tuning/adjustment

Postby Ivanerrol » Thu May 03, 2018 5:36 pm

Just a thought.

Last week I had problems adjusting the RD5800 on my Specialized. Couldn’t get it right.
Ended up taking the bike to the LBS. diagnosis?? - Bent derailleur hanger.
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