Evaporust question

twowheels
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Evaporust question

Postby twowheels » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:28 pm

I've got a question about Evaporust, which as I write & think about it is becoming rhetorical. A bike has been donated which has spent a lot of time near the beach. I'm thinking a good idea to wash the salt off with water, dry then soak in Evaporust. Sound like a good idea? Will be my first use of it after seeing posts that forum users recommend it. Thanks https://www.facebook.com/BitsaBikesWA

Tamiya
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Re: Evaporust question

Postby Tamiya » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:05 am

That stuff works magic! Only recently tried it, now a confirmed convert.

Don't know about salt (is it crusty crystals?) but ideally you should brush off all loose flakes then properly rinse & degrease everything before soaking in EvapoRust. Oil is barrier to EvapoRust reaching the rusted bits; reduce unnecessary contamination & why waste the chemical reacting on loose rust.

Instructions say "30mins"... umm I think they made a typo, try 30hrs... :twisted: probably slower in the freezing winter time but it does work eventually. I've been rigging up various DIY ways of warming up the soaks, does help speed things up imho.

What parts are you derusting?


Have also been experimenting with Oxalic Acid, seems to work nearly as well too - however imho it's best for only raw steel or chromed steel items. It's harsh on parts with galvanising zinc or aluminium whereas EvapoRust doesn't seem to harm those.

twowheels
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Re: Evaporust question

Postby twowheels » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:42 am

I wondered if salt might prevent the Evaporust working or have an adverse reaction.
Parts = V brake calipers, derailleurs.

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MattyK
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Re: Evaporust question

Postby MattyK » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:08 am

search youtube for RJ The Bike Guy.
He's got some good demos. Seems to be very effective.
I can't see why salt would affect the process, it would be dissolved in the bath. More important would be a thorough washing after treatment, then using some form of rust inhibition on the treated product.

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Bunged Knee
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Re: Evaporust question

Postby Bunged Knee » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:17 am

Do you mean this YT?
ID please? What ID? My seat tube ID is 27.2mm or 31.6mm depending on what bikes I ride today.thanks...

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10speedsemiracer
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Re: Evaporust question

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:20 am

Just be aware that Evaporust can have an effect on Aluminium (pitting, surface blemishes) but for some reason, not always (?).

Apple Cider vinegar can also be effective..
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MattyK
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Re: Evaporust question

Postby MattyK » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:12 pm

Bunged Knee wrote:Do you mean this YT?

That's one of them, he's done a few including a comparison to other products:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... +evaporust

twowheels
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Re: Evaporust question

Postby twowheels » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:40 pm

I'm subscribed to RJ the bike guy, where I first came across Evaporust. I became further interested when I read some of the retro forum guys using it. As both salt (& sodium highly reactive) & Evaporust are chemicals, so my question if they are reactive.

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MattyK
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Re: Evaporust question

Postby MattyK » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:02 pm

It claims to be a selective chelator, so I don't think it would react with sodium, only iron.

No specified materials to avoid on the MSDS.

That said, I'd be washing off as much salt as possible first, because you don't want to be soaking your parts in salty water. No need for drying after the first wash though

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Re: Evaporust question

Postby Tamiya » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:18 am

twowheels wrote:As both salt (& sodium highly reactive) & Evaporust are chemicals, so my question if they are reactive.


Elemental sodium is reactive, as is Chlorine gas... combine (exothermic chemical reaction releasing lots of energy) to make Salt sodium chloride which is pretty darned stable. You'll need to pump all that energy back in to split it back up :twisted:


EvapoRust continues to intrigue.

Fresh from jerrycan its pale yellow clear like, err, lemon juice :lol:

Every use its gets darker... from weak to strong tea, to black coffee... & it also becomes opaque.

Also becomes thicker like a gel - I run it thru a coffee paper filter between uses, it flows slower as it gets darker.

Plus a very strong smell of iron! Or spilt fresh blood... :shock:

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10speedsemiracer
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Re: Evaporust question

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:23 am

Tamiya wrote:
twowheels wrote:As both salt (& sodium highly reactive) & Evaporust are chemicals, so my question if they are reactive.


Elemental sodium is reactive, as is Chlorine gas... combine (exothermic chemical reaction releasing lots of energy) to make Salt sodium chloride which is pretty darned stable. You'll need to pump all that energy back in to split it back up :twisted:


EvapoRust continues to intrigue.

Fresh from jerrycan its pale yellow clear like, err, lemon juice :lol:

Every use its gets darker... from weak to strong tea, to black coffee... & it also becomes opaque.

Also becomes thicker like a gel - I run it thru a coffee paper filter between uses, it flows slower as it gets darker.

Plus a very strong smell of iron! Or spilt fresh blood... :shock:


the smell, and the colour change, is iron-oxide residue, and the solution will lose effectiveness fairly quickly after the first dose. I've used Apple Cider Vinegar for small parts with good success.
Mmm, SunTour

Tamiya
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Re: Evaporust question

Postby Tamiya » Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:20 am

10speedsemiracer wrote:...and the solution will lose effectiveness fairly quickly after the first dose.


That was my expectation too, but oddly Not Really. Wierd stuff!

I've been keeping jars of different darkness separate, when there's a pigeon pair of parts I've put one each into different jars & they still come out equally cleaned after soaking overnight.

Think the main trick is keeping it warmed; I heat mine to about 20-25degC. Without heat during this winter the room can chill to 5-10degC then nothing happens, even with fresh 1st use fluid.

Amazing stuff.

Yeah have tried various acids over the years, vinegars are actually pretty strong even when greatly diluted. I'm finding it might "remove" some rust, but that part after rinsing then just re-rusts quicker. Some say to neutralise acid with a base salt... tried bicarb, didn't think it helped much - just re-rusted just as quickly imho.

Have a vat of Oxalic Acid on the go too. Funny thing with that lot, if a part is only half submerged - the half submerged to air seems to rust more. Plus it leaves a yellow scummy residue on soaked part, does come off with strong scrubbing eventually. (Less work with EvapoRust.)

Currently experimenting with a few different ways of sealing the EvapoRust cleaned parts right after rinsing.

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10speedsemiracer
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Re: Evaporust question

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:38 am

Interesting. Maybe the heating strategy is the key difference. I did not try this when I went thru a jug of evaporust. Might try again with a bit of heat. How are you heating?
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Tamiya
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Re: Evaporust question

Postby Tamiya » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:05 pm

10speedsemiracer wrote:Interesting. Maybe the heating strategy is the key difference. I did not try this when I went thru a jug of evaporust. Might try again with a bit of heat. How are you heating?


Yeah, give heat a try if you can.

Am in Melb, I swear it's bleeding freezing this winter!! Dry but cold - my garden plants are suffering. Soaking at room temp didn't go too fast... took 2-3d for my 1st lot.

I tried boiling it on the stove to about 60-80degC with parts inside. Meh, it didn't kickstart the reaction - not like "30mins" as promised on bottle. It still took overnight (allowed it to cool).

Then I tried nuking it in the microwave to about 50degsC... then dropped parts into warmed liquid. Repeated nuking every hour or so, fishing parts (well they're metal, right?) out each time.

Constant heat seemed to be the key, so I started soaking the container in a basin of hot water. Kept renewing the waterbath to keep temp about 30-50degC... ok this worked better now. Took 5-8hrs for surface bloom, overnight for decent rust.

Was going to repurpose an aquarium heater and immerse it, but the fish wanted it back. Went to the potting bench & borrowed the seedling tray electric blanket instead... this can maintain a tub of liquid sitting on top of it at about 10degC above ambient. This has been the neatest & easiest heat source so far.


I have a vat of Oxalic Acid on the go too. Tried warming that but it doesn't kick along much faster imho; room temp goes just as quick. Averaging 2-3d soaking.

Tamiya
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Re: Evaporust question

Postby Tamiya » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:14 pm

FYI I think I've finally managed to "wear out" some EvapoRust :)

Had a batch that went pitch black, then it turned opaque/milky.

I took it off the heatpad and let it cool down; overnight it has precipitated & there's sediment settling on the bottom.

I filtered it today, there's grey sediment and the filtered liquid stayed pretty dark.

But I'm not gunna toss it out yet... I suspect if I add a glut of fresh fluid (say 30-50% by volume?) it'll start working again. :) methinks if you've not got enough fresh ER to cover your next job, it's better to have a vat of old+new than the same volume diluted of fresh+water

Will test, but for now I seem to have run out of rusty parts... :P

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Re: Evaporust question

Postby John Lewis » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:33 pm

Have you tried Molasses mixed with water?
It was the stuff we used years ago and worked well.
Don't leave things in too long though,
This Evaporust looks interesting. I had something similar a while back but can't remember what it was called.

twowheels
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Re: Evaporust question

Postby twowheels » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:24 am

Tamiya wrote:
10speedsemiracer wrote:...and the solution will lose effectiveness fairly quickly after the first dose.


That was my expectation too, but oddly Not Really. Wierd stuff!

I've been keeping jars of different darkness separate, when there's a pigeon pair of parts I've put one each into different jars & they still come out equally cleaned after soaking overnight.

Think the main trick is keeping it warmed; I heat mine to about 20-25degC. Without heat during this winter the room can chill to 5-10degC then nothing happens, even with fresh 1st use fluid.

Amazing stuff.

Yeah have tried various acids over the years, vinegars are actually pretty strong even when greatly diluted. I'm finding it might "remove" some rust, but that part after rinsing then just re-rusts quicker. Some say to neutralise acid with a base salt... tried bicarb, didn't think it helped much - just re-rusted just as quickly imho.

Have a vat of Oxalic Acid on the go too. Funny thing with that lot, if a part is only half submerged - the half submerged to air seems to rust more. Plus it leaves a yellow scummy residue on soaked part, does come off with strong scrubbing eventually. (Less work with EvapoRust.)

Currently experimenting with a few different ways of sealing the EvapoRust cleaned parts right after rinsing.

twowheels
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Re: Evaporust question

Postby twowheels » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:26 am

The instructions mention (never seen in forum comments) to place the part briefly in Evaporust after rinsing & then allow to air dry.

Tamiya
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Re: Evaporust question

Postby Tamiya » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:22 pm

twowheels wrote:The instructions mention (never seen in forum comments) to place the part briefly in Evaporust after rinsing & then allow to air dry.


Is that on EvapoRust jug or one of the Ozzie made equivalents Rusted Solutions Rust Remover or Bondall Ranex Rustbuster?

I remember reading it somewhere when investigating all 3; bought the US-made EvapoRust because the other 2 were harder to get & same price.... grr where's the benefit of "buying local"?

Wheel rims I've been soaking in ER in a shallow basin. Needs rotating about 4-5X for full coverage so the 'done' bits sit above the liquid for a week in warm steamy atmosphere :lol: guess they haven't rerusted.

But as its a bicycle & likely to get damp & washed in future service, I wanted something more waterproof that won't rinse off so easily (I presume ER is waterbased & easily soluble). Chrome bits I've been polishing with chrome wax. Steel parts I'm marinating in Lanox lanolin (with MT4 antirust!) or Reducteur H72 (it's French & costs more than champagne!).


Haha as for me running out of rusty bits to soak... felt too wierd so I went out today and dragged home more rusty British chromed steel. Familiarity resumes, all is well again. :P

Tamiya
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Re: Evaporust question

Postby Tamiya » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:32 pm

John Lewis wrote:Have you tried Molasses mixed with water?
It was the stuff we used years ago and worked well.
Don't leave things in too long though,
This Evaporust looks interesting. I had something similar a while back but can't remember what it was called.


You may be thinking of Oxalic Acid aka Wood Bleach or Rust Stains Remover from Concrete & Stainless Steel.

There are several ready2use liquids now on the market that purport to do those jobs... at big $$. These cleaners might only be 5-10% OA.

In previous decades OA was sold in crystal form and much cheaper, but today it's not easily found retail - unless you know where to look.

There's conjecture that ER &/or the 2 Ozzie equivalents might just be OA... haven't tried the latter 2, but my ER jars don't react like my tub of OA so I'd say not.

My observation OA is pretty harsh on anything zinc, potmetal or aluminium. I'm only soaking all-steel parts in it, nothing mixed metal.

Tamiya
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Re: Evaporust question

Postby Tamiya » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:50 pm

Haha who knew... they've published interesting info here https://www.evapo-rust.com.au/How%20It%20Works.html which I've ONLY just read :oops:

Evapo-Rust™ is a world leading chemistry employing selective chelation for rust removal. Evapo-Rust™ is sewerable in neat form and works at a pH ranging from 6 delivered to 7 as a spent solution. Evapo-Rust™ is a full replacement for acid and caustic rust removal applications, yet is non-hazardous, non-corrosive, non-flammable, and poses no environmental or health hazards. Evapo-Rust™ is a clear to yellow liquid best suited for dip tank applications, but in no way limited to this technique. In its simplest application, a plastic pail will suffice as an impromptu dip tank application. Rust removal is accomplished with no operator input once the piece is fully immersed. Most pieces/parts do not even need dismantling before soaking. Evapo-Rust™ does not harm Aluminium, Brass, Copper, Vinyl, Plastic, Wiring, Rubber, Chrome, or Non-oxide paint. Light rust is removed in as little as 5 to 30 minutes. Medium rust up to 6 hours, and heavy rust takes up to 24 hours. The chemistry is corrosion inhibiting for up to 2 weeks or it can be rinsed off for immediate painting.


2wks huh...!

The solution works by removing Iron (Fe II) from Iron Oxide and binding it in a ligand complex. (See illustration below). The Selective-Chelator is not strong enough to remove Iron-to-Iron bonds from un-corroded steel and does not harm the underlying metal. The Chelator is too expensive to use large quantities in the finished product. An organic chemical that easily loses sulfur to form ferric sulfate was added to remove iron from the Iron-Chelator complex. This allows the Chelator to remove more Iron from Iron Oxide. The sulfur-bearing compound is much less expensive than the Chelator and makes Evapo-Rust™ economical to use. Evapo-Rust™ has a chemical carrying capacity of 300grams of pure, dry rust per 5 litres.


300g per 5L, interesting.

The chemistry is endothermic so it requires some ambient heat to work. In temperatures below 5°C, the reaction is severely retarded. At 15-20°C it is pleasantly quick, and at 35-50° it is very active. Higher temperatures do not harm the liquid, but for worker safety they are not necessary. Only water evaporates from the fluid, and can be replaced without loss of performance. It is recommended to use Evapo-Rust™ as a free liquid in a dip-tank application. After treatment, the part can be water rinsed for painting, plating, or any other type of corrosion protective coating. If left un-rinsed, the fluid will dry on the treated surface to a hard, short-term corrosion resistant coating with no corrosion removal properties. As a dry film, it inhibits oxidation indoors for 10 to 14 days, depending on the humidity.
Observations show the ability of this chemistry to remove Iron Oxide without having any effect on Plastic, Acrylic and Poly Paint, Rubber, Butyl, Tin, Aluminium, Copper, Brass, and a host of other tested materials. The precise types of Iron Oxide and coatings affected are: Maghemite - γ Fe2O3, Magnetite - Fe3O4 , Wustite – FeO, Iron hydroxide - Fe(OH)2 , Iron Trihydroxide (Bernalite) – Fe(OH)3, Akageneite - β FeOOH, Feroxyhite - δ FeOOH, Lepidocrocite - γ FeOOH 11 and Parkerizing (Both types: Manganese & Zinc). Hematite - α Fe2O3 and Goethite - α FeOOH are not affected by Evapo-Rust.


Bingo! Needs heat to kick it along.


Latest experiment, have left tonite's jar of heated ER with rusty parts near a sunny window. Wondering if UV makes any difference.

Tamiya
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Re: Evaporust question

Postby Tamiya » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:58 pm

Now that I've read The Destructions, I'm shifting to a higher gear, umm... "Heat" :twisted:

In the past I've been soaking bunches of small parts for days with minor heat. Now derusted, am reassembling said parts... but occasionally discovering have missed out cleaning certain bits etc etc... (which I've no patience to wait another week for)

Turns out... if you heat EvapoRust to near boiling :o hey it DOES WORK PRETTY QUICKLY!! Say surface rust on a buttonhead screw, it's cleaned up in 2-3hrs :P I've microwaved a mug full of fluid, dropped the screws in and give it a stir every so often when I pass it. Rewarmed the mug every 20-30mins after fishing out the metal.

Larger bits I've done in an old Teflon frypan, low flame keeps it near boiling for about 20mins. Then let cool, it's clean after about an hour. Neat shape & size for doing chains & cable inners (tied onto loop).

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