Ex-Aussie track rider helping young riders ..........

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Re: Ex-Aussie track rider helping young riders ..........

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:48 pm

brentono wrote:Mikesbikes,
FME (from my experience) 94 is big, only saw a few guys, big
enough and bad enough to pump that baby. What's your weight/height?
and what events are we talking about?
Got some starting off ideas, here...
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=19364&p=296729#p296729
but that was mainly aimed at newbies, but still can have relevance.
"I am spinning too much"... does that mean your a top?
More info you give me, I may get a better idea.
Hope I can help.
Cheers,
Brenton


Wow those are low gears
The performance improvement was noticeable when I switched from 92" on 165 cranks to 94" on 170 cranks, which gave me the same gain ratio.

I'm 182cm and have just dieted myself down to 79kg, though I'm planning to put the weight back on to something in the 83 - 85kg range.

Events I tend to do better at are longer ones, such as scratch races, miss'em'out, points races. Though my raw sprint is starting to improve a little, at last.
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Re: Ex-Aussie track rider helping young riders ..........

Postby brentono » Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:37 pm

Mikesbytes (sorry about the mixup-dislexic)
Your not much taller, than I, similar weights.
Unless your a slugger (on 170's) get back to 165's
Peddling is what it's all about in my experience,
hence the build up through small gears, for newbies.
If you want speed and acceleration, I was a sprinter,
but not just that, in the era B.C. riders took on all
competitions, and even the road on off-season.
Personally won a bunch sprint at the end of a 160Km
feature race, a handicap, didn't catch (the limit) 7 frontrunners.
So you need the range.
I was a pedaller, low gears behind pacers, or down hills
on the road, lots of it.
When you can turn over the small gear, as another on a big gear,
he will tire and weaken first, and you will accelerate much faster.
FME- it worked for me.
And later, if you are a pedaller, when you move up in the gears,
you can handle them, much better than the slugger.
I sprinted on 92.6 against some of the best in the World,
at that time, and went past them... 10.4-10.8 for last 200m,
outdoor tracks... while training, no tactics, just sprints.
I liked to come from behind... that was the peddaler
passing with the acceleration... John.
Don't need to mention race events, that's another ballpark.
Hope that helps.
Cheers,
BrentonO
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Re: Ex-Aussie track rider helping young riders ..........

Postby daacha » Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:50 pm

i like this topic.....old skool is cool.

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Re: Ex-Aussie track rider helping young riders ..........

Postby brentono » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:38 am

Daccha,
"Old-school is Cool" but it's hard work, but if the willing,
think of it like engineering a massive building... results can occur.
Get the footings right, is where it all starts, position, position,
position (bit like business, eh!)... important.
Then foundations, gear selection, building up the miles
(as we used to call them) B.C. now it's Km's. Wink.
Build on your strengths, and develop your weaknesses.
Then each buiding block, correctly placed... a good spread
of differant methods of training. Diet. Other disciplines
(Weights, Tai Chi, whatever suits YOU, personally)
Competition, tactic development, gaining other skillz.
It's a step-by-step process, no instant gratification here,
and no amount of money (spent on equipment) is going
to make it easy.
So Daacha, glad your enjoying the topic.
And good luck, and last but not least, enjoy your cycling.
Cheers,
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Re: Ex-Aussie track rider helping young riders ..........

Postby sogood » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:51 am

A question, one that's particularly interesting given your past as a sprinter.

What's your take on weight training for track cycling?
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Re: Ex-Aussie track rider helping young riders ..........

Postby brentono » Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:19 am

FME, that would be a yes, weights, light Kgs (even less than you may think)
many reps, covering the top of the body (no to leg-work, unless light)
To make balance, for all the leg work your doing.
Assists the chest, for breathing.
Did it myself, and it was part of the development.
Tai Chi, which gives core strength, and balance (mental and physical) is something
I have been involved in recently (while in Asia for many years) and have come to
realise the benefits. See it would help most sports, and particularly Cycling.
Take a look at it, even just the exercises, which are basic, but still work.
Boosts your Chi, aids in your well being, and while your competeing would calm.
Hope your enjoying this, Sogood, and please excuse mistakes (I don't on myself)
as it's two finger, typing and thinking, on my feet. (and C&P of coarse)
Hope that helps.

Cheers,
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Re: Ex-Aussie track rider helping young riders ..........

Postby daacha » Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:27 am

brentono wrote:Daccha,
"Old-school is Cool" but it's hard work, but if the willing,
think of it like engineering a massive building... results can occur.
Get the footings right, is where it all starts, position, position,
position (bit like business, eh!)... important.
Then foundations, gear selection, building up the miles
(as we used to call them) B.C. now it's Km's. Wink.
Build on your strengths, and develop your weaknesses.
Then each buiding block, correctly placed... a good spread
of differant methods of training. Diet. Other disciplines
(Weights, Tai Chi, whatever suits YOU, personally)
Competition, tactic development, gaining other skillz.
It's a step-by-step process, no instant gratification here,
and no amount of money (spent on equipment) is going
to make it easy.
So Daacha, glad your enjoying the topic.
And good luck, and last but not least, enjoy your cycling.
Cheers,
BrentonO

Thanks BrentonO,

I have no track experience but am in the process of building up my first track bike. I have a late 60's Carlton frame which currently sits on Campy tubulars, sugino track cranks and once a period seat post, stem and bar are found i'll get out there and give it a go.

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Re: Ex-Aussie track rider helping young riders ..........

Postby brentono » Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:29 am

Missy24
Sorry, I took so long to get back to you,
have been a bit busy,
must apologise if I have offended, as I said,
a joke, or as I didn't say...
Your quote- "A gentleman... ok. Sure... we are all allowed our own opinion."
You have an opinion of me, good.
It's not personal, relax and enjoy, go out for a ride on your bike,
it's great meditation (if alone) and very relaxing.
Cheers,
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Re: Ex-Aussie track rider helping young riders ..........

Postby sogood » Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:33 am

Thanks for the reply BrentonO. It's always interesting to read the views of people with different perspectives and discussions on contentious points, and that's what makes internet forums so valuable.
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Re: Ex-Aussie track rider helping young riders ..........

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:41 am

Hi, what are the criteria you use when determining the most appropriate crank length and gearing for an individual
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Re: Ex-Aussie track rider helping young riders ..........

Postby brentono » Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:14 am

Sogood,
Glad I can be of some service, internet is great, when used correctly.
Discussions are great, and we can all learn.
Cheers,
BrentonO
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Re: Ex-Aussie track rider helping young riders ..........

Postby brentono » Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:21 am

Mikesbytes,
Before I begin (have to recall), and to help me understand "new-school" you go first.
Tell me who, or how it was determined, that you take on 94 and 170 cranks...?
What is the "new-school" Criteria regarding these points?
And how long have you been riding on the track?
Thanks,
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Re: Ex-Aussie track rider helping young riders ..........

Postby brentono » Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:24 am

Verbs & Nouns,
So if I'm still takin'up ya time...
Bro, I'm Gen-W, but mostly hung with Gen-V, as while still at school, was
competeing (2-3 times/wk) against much older guys, (we hung out)
and winning, and making more $ than the average wage, each week.
Gen-V... that's when
1. V-B was the Beer (after Swan)
2. V-ietnam was an action, that you got conscripted, and sent to (as a kid)
3. V-8's everyone had one, if you were cool, mine was a HK 327 Monaro- fully worked.
4. V-D was something bad (back when people had sex)... dodged that one.
5. V-ino was a dollar a flagon, from the vineyard direct, $2 if you had no flagon.
No-one gave me $ zip $, I earned every cent.
Are you with me, Bro?

Sweeper59,
Sharp remark...
"12 posts so far......and I don't see much help being dispensed."
Is the dispenser now working? Hope you can now, enjoy?

Cheers,
Brentono
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Re: Ex-Aussie track rider helping young riders ..........

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:08 pm

brentono wrote:Mikesbytes,
Before I begin (have to recall), and to help me understand "new-school" you go first.
Tell me who, or how it was determined, that you take on 94 and 170 cranks...?
What is the "new-school" Criteria regarding these points?
And how long have you been riding on the track?
Thanks,
BrentonO


This is my 3rd season on the track

49t and 170 cranks came with my new bike. The gear felt too low with 15t so I put a 14t on
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Re: Ex-Aussie track rider helping young riders ..........

Postby brentono » Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:06 pm

Mikesbytes,
There’s a lot of ground to cover here, but will try to trim it down...
You asked “what are the criteria you use when determining the most appropriate crank length”... well FME,
and in the "old-school", we would think about the centre-bracket drop, in "new-school" looked at a technical
diagram of a Principia Track frame, and that measurement is not even mentioned?
(are many of the "new-wave" shops and people involved in the Cycle business, just out for the money$$$ ? One must ask?)
When I had my track frame built in Paris, by one of the most recognised in Europe,
the bike was built AROUND this measurement.
On steep tracks, travelling at low speed (Sprints) you had to be aware not to clip the track, and fall, which was
very embarrassing, and sometimes quite painful, depending on the surface. The drop, plus the crank length,
and the angle of the track banks all came into play, so you can see where I’m going with this.
That was the first determination.
Then on very tight tracks, at high speed, with long cranks, you could catch the other way, on the bottom run-off.
Long cranks, huge gears might go with something like a long, motor-paced event, and did. Possibly some sluggers, in a pursuit.
But for speed and agility, it’s short cranks and become a peddler.
Did some pretty good work on an 88.2, and won many races on it. Depends a lot on the conditions.
Learn to peddle a small gear, and the bigger gears will work for you, later.
So, it’s still early days, sometimes bad-habits are hard to reverse, once learnt.
I would get back to 165's, so think about it... and get a good peddling action going.
Go back over the newbies plan, and have a think about it...
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=19364&p=296729#p296729
Hope I have been of some help.
Cheers,
BrentonO
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Re: Ex-Aussie track rider helping young riders ..........

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:45 pm

brentono wrote:Race Times have varied very little since my era,

the current 200m fly WR is 9.650 seconds
the current 4000m Team Pursuit WR is 3:53.314

Not sure what era you are from. How do those times compare?
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Re: Ex-Aussie track rider helping young riders ..........

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:24 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:the current 200m fly WR is 9.650 seconds


Ah Alex, you have reminded me what a crap cyclist I am, compared with when I was a runner
Running: 100mtr WR = 9.9 (at the time) on synthetic. Me 11.9 on grass
Cycling: flying 200m 9.65 in Russia. Me 13.4 at Tempe

Brentono, I'm a bit confused about crank length and gearing. Most the riders I know are using 170 cranks and using 92", 94" or 96". Why is it so different to your days?
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Re: Ex-Aussie track rider helping young riders ..........

Postby brentono » Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:54 am

Alex,
Firstly, let me congratulate you on your cycling, and overcoming such
a great handicap. Respect.
My point about the times, is that I would have expected a greater
improvement... given better tracks, indoors, better lighter,
more technical equipment, more scientific training methods, better diets,
much more financial support (non-existant B.C.) etc...?
Thanks for quoting these times, you are a coach and an expert, and
your input is most valuable.
FME-Track sprint times and Flying Timed records, are apples and oranges.
When I quoted, sprint times, they were averages, outdoor tracks, not
in competition (but properly timed and filmed)
Better odd times were achieved, even to 10.2or3, it was timed from
the first rider, I was coming from behind at least 2 lengths back,
so you can work it out for yourself. A few differant ex-World champs
were involved... as well as the current, at the time.
If we quote times, the only recognised time I can quote, was breaking
the Aussie and state 500m TT (standing start) on a shocking flat track,
probably with a howling easterly, and that was 35.5 seconds.
In Europe (unrecognised) got down to around the mid-34's on better
outdoor tracks, TT wasn't my bag, but I gave it a go. No 1000m.
Just discussing this, and maybe you can enlighten all of us,
regarding your thoughts, on the development in Cycling.
I know nothing of what happens, now.
Thanks,
BrentonO
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Re: Ex-Aussie track rider helping young riders ..........

Postby Verbs & Nouns » Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:25 pm

brentono wrote:Verbs & Nouns,
So if I'm still takin'up ya time...
Bro, I'm Gen-W, but mostly hung with Gen-V, as while still at school, was
competeing (2-3 times/wk) against much older guys, (we hung out)
and winning, and making more $ than the average wage, each week.
Gen-V... that's when
1. V-B was the Beer (after Swan)
2. V-ietnam was an action, that you got conscripted, and sent to (as a kid)
3. V-8's everyone had one, if you were cool, mine was a HK 327 Monaro- fully worked.
4. V-D was something bad (back when people had sex)... dodged that one.
5. V-ino was a dollar a flagon, from the vineyard direct, $2 if you had no flagon.
No-one gave me $ zip $, I earned every cent.
Are you with me, Bro?


Cheers,
Brentono

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Re: Ex-Aussie track rider helping young riders ..........

Postby brentono » Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:27 pm

Mikesbytes,
Can't tell you any reasoning of what they do today, regarding
cranks or gears.
FME- Depending on what type of racing we are talking about,
motorpaced events require higher gears. The biggest most
powerful sprinter used 49x14 in the Final of the World's.
Much higher that I used (48x14 or less), in training when
we sprinted, less tactics, more sprint... I would draft,
laying off maybe half bike or a length, around the
last bend, flick off, and accelerate past, always close
finishes, but I got over the line first, in many.
Point is, a peddaler, gains acceleration, for the loss of power,
and similar theory goes for cranks.
A P'r will accelarate around a group in a scratch or handicap
race, in the dying stages of that race (conserving energy) and
when the sluggers, are dying in front, the P'rs time comes.
This is from my personal experience, and it won me many
races, against well respected riders.
Go back to the basics, and learn how to pedal first.
It is difficult to make all the points, with the constraints
of time, and space.
Seems simple doesn't it. Keep it simple.
Hope I have made my points reasonably clear?
And some may pick up on it?
Thanks,
BrentonO
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Re: Ex-Aussie track rider helping young riders ..........

Postby brentono » Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:33 pm

V&N
Dad?

Been to S.A. a coupla times, who's ya mum?
Laugh,
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Re: Ex-Aussie track rider helping young riders ..........

Postby sogood » Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:36 pm

brentono wrote:Point is, a peddaler, gains acceleration, for the loss of power...

How do you accelerate if there's a drop off in power? :shock:

Or do you have a different definition of "power"?
Go back to the basics, and learn how to pedal first.

So what's the advisable way to pedal? How can one learn it? How was it taught in your days?
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Re: Ex-Aussie track rider helping young riders ..........

Postby brentono » Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:02 pm

Sogood,
Or do you have a different definition of "power"?


Maybe I meant, the leverage gain from longer cranks, and the
same with gears. A peddaler, will achieve the same, possibly more power,
(to the back wheels) with short cranks, slightly smaller gear,
as a slugger, big gears, long cranks... these days they have all the gear to check,
it would be an interesting excercise... eh!
It is quite difficult to explain..?

How can one learn it? How was it taught in your days?


Basically, get on a fixed gear, find some downhills,
or get behind a pacer out on the road (can you do that these days?)

Will C&P this from some backroom coaching I'm doing with Rowena. Joking.
(Was asked about hillclimbing, but it may be relevant here, hope I haven't let the cat out, R?)

FME-Fixed gear, certainly, this is the point I'm banging on about with the gears.
It's the basics, it's how you learn to pedal properly, and become a peddaler,
I used small gears, out training (fixed) around 74, 76, 78... varies with conditions,
and what your trying to achieve. Hill-climbing, involves small gears, that you need
to pedal, now you see the connection..?
Used to built my power for starts (TT) and acceleration, for sprints, by sprinting
up hills, on a fixed gear.
Then you go down them, same fixed, and boy you need to pedal then, eh!
Hope that helps

Cheers,
BrentonO
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Re: Ex-Aussie track rider helping young riders ..........

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:21 pm

Hi Brento,

Your views are similar to other older track riders I have met.

I started riding a fixie about 3 months ago, I'm riding 77", which is what the gear worked out to be when I scored a crank, which had a 40t ring on it.
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Re: Ex-Aussie track rider helping young riders ..........

Postby brentono » Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:49 pm

Mikesbytes,
Seems we are reaching a concensus, and we may be able to
define "old school" someday..?
Maybe they brainwashed us all (old-guys) the same way (in that little room)

The fixed is the way to go, as I mentioned to Sogood and others.
What is the crank size you are using on that fixed bike (training)?

Even when I had my track bike built, I had the road built
(same guy De Pierre) to exactly the same dimensions and angles,
all was the equipment measurements, the same. That was the way.

Sounds like your already getting some good advice.
Go for it.
Cheers,
BrentonO
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