Peak Wattage Output

Where speeds may exceed 60 kmph

Peak Wattage Output

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:21 pm

A rider who uses a power meter at the track has estimated my peak wattage to be around 1,100 watts. I think he's right and its an issue as I get done in the final sprint.

So the solution is to raise my peak wattage

Anyone know where there's documentation on how to increase peak wattage.
A helmet saved my life
User avatar
mikesbytes
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 14807
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:42 pm
Location: Tempe, Sydney

by BNA » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:25 pm

BNA
 

Re: Peak Wattage Output

Postby vander » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:25 pm

mikesbytes wrote:A rider who uses a power meter at the track has estimated my peak wattage to be around 1,100 watts. I think he's right and its an issue as I get done in the final sprint.

So the solution is to raise my peak wattage

Anyone know where there's documentation on how to increase peak wattage.


Genetics, efforts, weights.

Genetics plays a big part in sprinting. Doing efforts with full recovery (atleast 3 minutes more like 5+) these efforts have to be flat out. Weights also works that is why a lot of the sprinters do lots and lots of weights.

For track aswell you need to think about what might be limiting you, for me it was my ability to spin, on the road I could change gears but my peak wattage would come between 80-100 RPM so for the track what I needed to work on was being able to spin faster easier, doing unresisted max rpm efforts helped, also just riding on the track.

ALso people just estimating your peak wattage isnt very exact which I am sure you know.
Image
vander
 
Posts: 1211
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:35 am
Location: North Strathfield, NSW

Re: Peak Wattage Output

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:21 am

Cadence is not an issue, I'm comfortable on 140rpm and can go higher if necessary. We did discuss at what cadence do I hit peak power, which is a difficult question to answer without a power meter.

His suggestions are similar to yours, except I'll stick with the genetics I've already got :wink:
A helmet saved my life
User avatar
mikesbytes
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 14807
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:42 pm
Location: Tempe, Sydney

Re: Peak Wattage Output

Postby toppity » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:32 am

AlexS would be the bloke to ask I would think
I ride several bicycles, but not at once.
toppity
 
Posts: 976
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:08 am
Location: West Gippsland, Victoria

Re: Peak Wattage Output

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:35 am

mikesbytes wrote:A rider who uses a power meter at the track has estimated my peak wattage to be around 1,100 watts. I think he's right and its an issue as I get done in the final sprint.

So the solution is to raise my peak wattage

Anyone know where there's documentation on how to increase peak wattage.

there is little documentation on this, nevertheless, it's not all that complicated, despite what lots of people might have you think.

but first, is peak wattage the real issue? as it often isn't. We rarely hit peak wattages in typical track races.
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3427
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: Peak Wattage Output

Postby vander » Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:19 pm

80% of 1600 beats 80% of 1400.
Image
vander
 
Posts: 1211
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:35 am
Location: North Strathfield, NSW

Re: Peak Wattage Output

Postby sogood » Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:04 pm

mikesbytes wrote:A rider who uses a power meter at the track has estimated my peak wattage to be around 1,100 watts. I think he's right and its an issue as I get done in the final sprint.

So the solution is to raise my peak wattage

You think so?

If your being done in peak power standing starts, then yes, it's a peak power problem. But by the final sprint, do you think you could still hit your peak power like a standing start? I'd think the prior phase have already done you in and limited your sprint power through fatigue. I'd think you need to further improve your base aerobic power and high intensity sprint intervals. Your spin classes are great for your aerobics but I don't think there's anything there that matches peak intensity sprint interval training.
Bianchi, Ridley, Montague, GT, Garmin and All things Apple :)
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
User avatar
sogood
 
Posts: 16929
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Peak Wattage Output

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:52 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:but first, is peak wattage the real issue? as it often isn't. We rarely hit peak wattages in typical track races.

If this is the case, then my challenge is elsewhere
sogood wrote:If your being done in peak power standing starts, then yes, it's a peak power problem. But by the final sprint, do you think you could still hit your peak power like a standing start? I'd think the prior phase have already done you in and limited your sprint power through fatigue. I'd think you need to further improve your base aerobic power and high intensity sprint intervals.

My standing starts are poor. Can't say I feel that fatigued by the final sprint, but I understand what you are saying.
sogood wrote:Your spin classes are great for your aerobics but I don't think there's anything there that matches peak intensity sprint interval training.

I believe that I can use my spin classes to derive improvement in peak intensity sprint, this is one reason why I am started this thread, I need to understand the concepts so I can apply to what I currently do.
A helmet saved my life
User avatar
mikesbytes
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 14807
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:42 pm
Location: Tempe, Sydney

Re: Peak Wattage Output

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:58 pm

My understanding is it can be improved but not a lot... you put out 1000w for 5 sec power now you might be able to improve that 5-15% but not much more, because the power comes from how fast you can fire your muscles, not how strong the muscles are. Hence sprinters are born not made... the born sprinters can then be improved as well by training.
It is also my understanding that 1 minute power is strongly influenced by your parents as well... but is a bit more trainable.
Not really sure they are comparable ( Alex? ) as I have good 1 minute power and not so great 5 sec power... hence I like finishes that end flat out, playing games in the last few hundred meters is not for me!.
Training the explosiveness is pretty easy... short burst getting instantly "on top of the gear" at sprint cadence, don't hold it there long, just until you feel the power fade ( that is under 10 secs for me )... rest and repeat. It isn't very tiring if doing short efforts like that, 6-10 in an easy paced ride. Once you start pushing them out to 15-30 seconds you will be feeling them a lot more... but then you won't be training your peak wattage at 15 seconds or more either.
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14380
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: Peak Wattage Output

Postby vander » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:20 pm

toolonglegs wrote:My understanding is it can be improved but not a lot... you put out 1000w for 5 sec power now you might be able to improve that 5-15% but not much more, because the power comes from how fast you can fire your muscles, not how strong the muscles are. Hence sprinters are born not made... the born sprinters can then be improved as well by training.
It is also my understanding that 1 minute power is strongly influenced by your parents as well... but is a bit more trainable.
Not really sure they are comparable ( Alex? ) as I have good 1 minute power and not so great 5 sec power... hence I like finishes that end flat out, playing games in the last few hundred meters is not for me!.
Training the explosiveness is pretty easy... short burst getting instantly "on top of the gear" at sprint cadence, don't hold it there long, just until you feel the power fade ( that is under 10 secs for me )... rest and repeat. It isn't very tiring if doing short efforts like that, 6-10 in an easy paced ride. Once you start pushing them out to 15-30 seconds you will be feeling them a lot more... but then you won't be training your peak wattage at 15 seconds or more either.


Out of curiosity what sort of 1min numbers do you put out.
Image
vander
 
Posts: 1211
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:35 am
Location: North Strathfield, NSW

Re: Peak Wattage Output

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:40 pm

vander wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:My understanding is it can be improved but not a lot... you put out 1000w for 5 sec power now you might be able to improve that 5-15% but not much more, because the power comes from how fast you can fire your muscles, not how strong the muscles are. Hence sprinters are born not made... the born sprinters can then be improved as well by training.
It is also my understanding that 1 minute power is strongly influenced by your parents as well... but is a bit more trainable.
Not really sure they are comparable ( Alex? ) as I have good 1 minute power and not so great 5 sec power... hence I like finishes that end flat out, playing games in the last few hundred meters is not for me!.
Training the explosiveness is pretty easy... short burst getting instantly "on top of the gear" at sprint cadence, don't hold it there long, just until you feel the power fade ( that is under 10 secs for me )... rest and repeat. It isn't very tiring if doing short efforts like that, 6-10 in an easy paced ride. Once you start pushing them out to 15-30 seconds you will be feeling them a lot more... but then you won't be training your peak wattage at 15 seconds or more either.


Out of curiosity what sort of 1min numbers do you put out.


Yeah I am saying "good" for the level I race at.... not good as in GOOD :) .
Never really nailed a good one minute power test, they are bloody hard to get right, well for me they are... but my best effort was around 8.2 watts per kg IIRC. But that was still about 6 kilos over weight... if I ever hit my goal weight I would be very happy with 8.5 w per kg for 1 minute!. Compare that to my best 5 sec power of 15 watts per kg ( maybe 16 at goal weight ).
That's in training though, in races I wouldn't get close to that... where as on the track I expect you would get pretty close to you training peaks as the races are not as long and there are no hills :P .
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14380
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: Peak Wattage Output

Postby sogood » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:42 pm

mikesbytes wrote:I believe that I can use my spin classes to derive improvement in peak intensity sprint, this is one reason why I am started this thread, I need to understand the concepts so I can apply to what I currently do.

Alex is the obvious expert in the field but do look up Levels 5, 6 and 7 interval training.

Image

Also have a read of the following links that I long book marked.
http://www.cyclingforums.com/t/389605/h ... t-improved
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/ ... oggan.aspx
http://www.twowheelblogs.com/training-w ... wer-levels

I am not sure these high intensity intervals are going to be accessible to you during your spin classes as after each of these intervals, you'll be huffing and puffing and won't be able to function as the instructor. Your spin sessions are great for aerobic and endurance, but I'd say it's not fitted for high intensity sprint training.
Bianchi, Ridley, Montague, GT, Garmin and All things Apple :)
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
User avatar
sogood
 
Posts: 16929
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Peak Wattage Output

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:28 am

mikesbytes wrote:I believe that I can use my spin classes to derive improvement in peak intensity sprint,

Not for peak power. No chance. Insufficient inertial load. And probably moderately dangerous.

You can improve your anaerobic work capacity on a trainer though.

Do your peak power / neuromuscular work on the bike.

How many sprint/standing start workouts do you do? They are, by far, the most effective means to improve peak power on a bike.

Keep in mind that it is exceptionally difficult to improve both aerobic fitness and peak power at the same time. Peak power responds very well to freshness, such that you need to re-evaluate how much aerobic work you are doing if peak power really is your development need. If you are doing a never ending stream of aerobic rides and spin classes, that will likely never help you with peak power development.
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3427
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: Peak Wattage Output

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:27 am

Really interesting reading sogood, to quote the penguin in batman returns "a plan is forming"

Not to concerned about the not being able to talk comments, having racked up my 900th class as an instructor last week, I'm well adapted to communication.
A helmet saved my life
User avatar
mikesbytes
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 14807
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:42 pm
Location: Tempe, Sydney

Re: Peak Wattage Output

Postby sogood » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:37 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Not to concerned about the not being able to talk comments, having racked up my 900th class as an instructor last week, I'm well adapted to communication.

If you did your high intensity sprint intervals properly, not only wouldn't you be able to talk, you would barely able to continue to spin. So no, not compatible with your instructor role. But as Alex said, you are not going to get enough resistance, nor the right sort of resistance from a spin bike.
Bianchi, Ridley, Montague, GT, Garmin and All things Apple :)
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
User avatar
sogood
 
Posts: 16929
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Peak Wattage Output

Postby foo on patrol » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:52 pm

Standing and more standing starts but only until you're on top of the gear and throw in some 200mtr sprints at 100% effort. :wink:

Foo
I don't suffer fools easily and so long as you have done your best,you should have no regrets.
Goal 6000km
Image
User avatar
foo on patrol
 
Posts: 4443
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:12 am
Location: Sanstone Point QLD

Re: Peak Wattage Output

Postby Ken Ho » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:16 pm

Who is your coach, and what are they saying .
You have officially become your parents.
Ken Ho
 
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:28 pm
Location: Pikey, based on Southern Gold Coast

Re: Peak Wattage Output

Postby Lazyweek » Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:43 am

Interesting thread, my cycling "training" is really only based around sprinting (not that I am very good at it :) ).

Sounds like I will have to throw in more standing starts. How many repetitions would you recommend? Say 5 standing starts and a couple of sprints with several minutes (up to ~5 min) break in between? Also, I assume I want to be performing standing starts in a relatively high gear?

Another question, all this has to be relatively hard on the bike. Should I be worried about snapping the chain?
Lazyweek
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 10:23 am

Re: Peak Wattage Output

Postby brentono » Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:10 pm

Standing starts for 50m, jumps from rolling to speed for 50m, and
a few (timed) 200m sprints. Motorpaced finishes off the pacer,
for the last 50m, to the finish line.
If you start breaking chains :roll: it's off to the Worlds for you, mate :D
Cheers
:mrgreen:
Lone Rider- I rode on the long, dark road... before I danced under the lights.
User avatar
brentono
 
Posts: 3674
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:33 pm
Location: Perth DubyaEh.

Re: Peak Wattage Output

Postby brawlo » Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:13 pm

Lazyweek wrote:Another question, all this has to be relatively hard on the bike. Should I be worried about snapping the chain?


I saw this mentioned in a discussion just recently with some heavy hitters. Basically, a 1/8 track chain very very rarely snaps from power. Chains snap from a lack of maintenance or taking them way beyond their service limit. Keep track of your chain stretch and maintain it well and there should be no problems.
brawlo
 
Posts: 391
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:01 pm
Location: Goulburn, NSW

Re: Peak Wattage Output

Postby Lazyweek » Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:38 pm

Thanks for the advice. I'll try my best to smash my legs tonight...
Lazyweek
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 10:23 am

Re: Peak Wattage Output

Postby foo on patrol » Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:15 pm

brentono wrote:Standing starts for 50m, jumps from rolling to speed for 50m, and
a few (timed) 200m sprints. Motorpaced finishes off the pacer,
for the last 50m, to the finish line.
If you start breaking chains :roll: it's off to the Worlds for you, mate :D
Cheers
:mrgreen:


Yep if you can get someone to motor pace you, you will be laughin after a couple of months because it makes a huuuuuuuge difference to speed. :)

Foo
I don't suffer fools easily and so long as you have done your best,you should have no regrets.
Goal 6000km
Image
User avatar
foo on patrol
 
Posts: 4443
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:12 am
Location: Sanstone Point QLD

Re: Peak Wattage Output

Postby mikesbytes » Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:54 am

Ken Ho wrote:Who is your coach, and what are they saying .

Unfortunately its not that simple, as my exercise is dictated by my employment and this is why I need to know the basis behind it, not just instructions on what to do.

If I wasn't in that situation, I would use coaching services from someone like Alex
A helmet saved my life
User avatar
mikesbytes
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 14807
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:42 pm
Location: Tempe, Sydney

Re: Peak Wattage Output

Postby Lazyweek » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:45 am

Lazyweek wrote:Thanks for the advice. I'll try my best to smash my legs tonight...


I gave the standing starts a go last night. I quite enjoyed them. I will be honest, I am just riding a road bike on quiet back streets at the moment. Did two of five standing starts in my hardest gear (53/12 I believe), but I was on a very slight decline....with a tail wind :) Finished up with three sprints and called it a night.

Certainly want to get into track riding but I will make the best of my current circumstances.
Lazyweek
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 10:23 am

Re: Peak Wattage Output

Postby foo on patrol » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:57 am

Hey Lazy, you need too build up to the bigger gears first, when doing jump starts. :wink:

Foo
I don't suffer fools easily and so long as you have done your best,you should have no regrets.
Goal 6000km
Image
User avatar
foo on patrol
 
Posts: 4443
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:12 am
Location: Sanstone Point QLD

Next

Return to Track

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users



Popular Bike Shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Ebay Ebay AU

“Bicycles BNA Twitter
“Bicycles BNA Facebook
“Google+ BNA Google+
“Bicycles BNA Newsletter

> FREE BNA Stickers
> BNA Cycling Kit