Whats the point of the derny?!

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Whats the point of the derny?!

Postby Cossie Phil » Sun Nov 17, 2013 2:35 pm

I'm sure there is a logical obvious answer...though it was not obvious to me last night!

I was lucky enough to be given a 'heads up' about the CSC Cup at Dunc Grey last night and went along to watch a good nights racing with a few regulars from here:) Other than this, I would never have known it was on...could be why there weren't many spectators?

The highlight of the night for me was seeing Caleb Ewan finish in the final...awesome!! And also seeing a few LACC jerseys out on the track;)

Anyway, the Kieran...whats the go with the derny? It looked like it was holding up the riders...or is that the point? Something about a rolling start? I have no idea?

Cheers,

Phil.
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by BNA » Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:41 pm

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Re: Whats the point of the derny?!

Postby Derny Driver » Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:41 pm

Cossie Phil wrote:I'm sure there is a logical obvious answer...though it was not obvious to me last night!

I was lucky enough to be given a 'heads up' about the CSC Cup at Dunc Grey last night and went along to watch a good nights racing with a few regulars from here:) Other than this, I would never have known it was on...could be why there weren't many spectators?

The highlight of the night for me was seeing Caleb Ewan finish in the final...awesome!! And also seeing a few LACC jerseys out on the track;)

Anyway, the Kieran...whats the go with the derny? It looked like it was holding up the riders...or is that the point? Something about a rolling start? I have no idea?

Cheers,

Phil.

Yes the derny is there to control the speed of the race. It starts very slowly and the riders jockey for position. Right behind the derny is usually favoured because you get the best draft and when it swings off the track you are at the front which means you cant get boxed in and can control the speed of the following riders to a degree. The derny swings off with 2 and a half laps remaining or 625 metres. Keirin racing favours riders who can sprint for long distances as opposed to pure sprinters who are good for around 300-350 metres maximum. Since the derny is doing around 45kph+ when it swings off the track, the race also suits riders with a high top speed as opposed to match sprinters who have a quicker acceleration. So using a derny to control the race speed up until the final laps, means that you get a very different outcome compared to a pure man on man match sprint. The match sprint and the keirin are the two blue riband events for the speed men, and because of the derny, they are two very different events.
Chris Hoy was a legend in the keirin race, he could go longer in the sprint than anyone else, and in the old days, Sid Patterson would have been a multiple world keirin champion if they had the event in the 50's and 60's (they didn't). He had an unbelievably long sprint and a high top speed.
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Re: Whats the point of the derny?!

Postby Cossie Phil » Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:56 pm

Thanks DD...between your response and google it is starting to make sense:) Although, it seemed that once the riders were in 'order' behind the derny, that was the order they stayed in.
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Re: Whats the point of the derny?!

Postby vander » Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:23 pm

They changed the rules about how much you can jockey for position, in the past there would be a lot more fighting for position behind the derny. These days the number of laps the derny does on the front could be halved because of that, with it still getting up to a good speed.
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Re: Whats the point of the derny?!

Postby Row-D » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:49 pm

Cossie Phil wrote:And also seeing a few LACC jerseys out on the track;)


As one of the LACC jerseys noted I can definitely say watching the CSC is great but getting out there on the track is even better. I had an absolute blast.
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Re: Whats the point of the derny?!

Postby Cossie Phil » Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:52 pm

Hi Vander, yeah, it definately looked that way from the stands...it either needs to peel off earlier or up the speed for the last few laps it is out for.
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Re: Whats the point of the derny?!

Postby Cossie Phil » Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:55 pm

Hi Row-D, that definately sounds like a plan! If I remember correctly, both you and Vander had a run in the same heat together? Im waiting to hear when the work is finished at Lidcombe Oval and will head down the first Friday night the track reopens:)
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Re: Whats the point of the derny?!

Postby Row-D » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:33 am

Yeah, it probably would have been better for Vander and I to be in separate heats but there you go.
Hopefully the Lidcombe track will be good to go by Christmas - see you down there.
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Re: Whats the point of the derny?!

Postby Derny Driver » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:38 pm

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Re: Whats the point of the derny?!

Postby brentono » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:57 am

I tend to agree with Phil, here. And find the point of the derny in Keirin superfluous.
Though I did enjoy the old style motorpaced events immensely, great speed and action.
Your positioning was premier in these events. A great 10 kilo event. Won many 8)
The motorpacing for training for Track is a given. And for spectators a great Race Event.
Sad it is rarely around these days.
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Re: Whats the point of the derny?!

Postby Cossie Phil » Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:53 pm

Since I posted this topic, I have now had some time on the track and seen the derny in action for sprint training at DGV, though not sat in behind it. I suspect their relevance in the kierin is more about the pace they set, I think at the CSC last year the pace may have been a bit low...though couldn't claim to know that for sure. For my taste, I would like to see the derny going quick enough for the riders to work to stay on, if they arent working, I dont see the point in it being there.

Nice action shot above DD!! Either that or the rider is doing a fantastic track stand;)
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Re: Whats the point of the derny?!

Postby foo on patrol » Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:00 pm

If you get the chance to do some motor paced work Cossie, grab it, because you will come ahead in leaps and bounds if you stick with it. :wink:

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Re: Whats the point of the derny?!

Postby Derny Driver » Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:14 pm

Cossie Phil wrote:
Nice action shot above DD!! Either that or the rider is doing a fantastic track stand;)

A friend of mine took the photo, he's a great photographer. I was the derny driver at the Bowral and Illawarra State track carnivals. This was at Illawarra, one of the Junior keirin races.

I have a photo of the Bowral carnival last year with a string of riders behind me in the A grade motorpace, led by Caleb Ewen and Jack Edwards. I'll see if I can find it on my computer.
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Re: Whats the point of the derny?!

Postby Cossie Phil » Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:14 pm

That would be great DD, keen to see it:)
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Re: Whats the point of the derny?!

Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:28 pm

We run junior keirens with one of the adults riding as the derny. Last night we had Brad Heap, fresh back from the nationals with a silver and bronze, working as a derny for the kids. You don't need a motor bike to be a derny, just a "motor".
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Re: Whats the point of the derny?!

Postby Derny Driver » Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:06 pm

bigfriendlyvegan wrote: You don't need a motor bike to be a derny, just a "motor".

Yes in the olden days they used tandems for motorpacing on the track ...or triplets :shock:
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Re: Whats the point of the derny?!

Postby HLC » Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:09 pm

all the Keirin haters....

Keirin is my favourite track event! So much so, i own a Japanese Keirin bike.

Anyway, as outlined above, it has it's place in Keirin racing, it also had it's place at the 100 lap motor pace training sessions at the speed dome in perth.
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Re: Whats the point of the derny?!

Postby Pravda » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:18 pm

Yessss love the keirin!

Motorpace racing is also completely insane! Check out this one from Iljo Keisse .


And HLC, Tuesday Track nights at the speeddome in Perth are my favourite night of the week. Motorpace training is the reason I'm racing B grade these days.
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Re: Whats the point of the derny?!

Postby Derny Driver » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:46 pm

Pravda wrote:Yessss love the keirin!

Motorpace racing is also completely insane! Check out this one from Iljo Keisse .

6 days of Gent.
You can see Iljo putting on a great show for the crowd. Wheelies, with a last minute, last lap lunge for the line ...a spectacular victory!!
I was invited to attend the 2005 Gent 6 day by the organisers, Patrick Sercu and Roger de Maartelaere. (My uncle was a famous 6 day rider).
After watching Iljo win the derny races every night, in the same fashion, I asked Mr Sercu if they were "staged".
"Yes of course. Iljo is the local boy, his dad owns the bike shop in Gent. The crowd are not stupid. They know its a set up. But they love it. They stand on their chairs and scream for him. The derny races are just for show, for fun. The other races are not staged, just the derny races"

The derny races are amazing. During each night, most of the crowd are either chatting and socialising in the 3 under-track bars, or out in the middle of the track watching and socialising. But when the dernys start up, the engine noise and the noise of the boards as they ride around the track brings EVERYONE back to their seats. The crowd bang things, blow whistles, let off air horns, scream, jump up and down and generally go beserk. The derny races are late on the program and everyone is half-cut and they just go crazy. Its like nothing you've ever seen.
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Re: Whats the point of the derny?!

Postby Pravda » Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:19 pm

Would love to get over and check out one of the big 6 day races. Not surprising they stage the Derny races, they'd be mayhem and I reckon crazy dangerous in a proper race environment. Sercu would know being Merckx's partner and with him almost dying in a derny race back in the day.
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Re: Whats the point of the derny?!

Postby Derny Driver » Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:24 pm

Pravda wrote:Would love to get over and check out one of the big 6 day races. Not surprising they stage the Derny races, they'd be mayhem and I reckon crazy dangerous in a proper race environment. Sercu would know being Merckx's partner and with him almost dying in a derny race back in the day.

Exactly mate, spot on. Im saving up and dreaming of going back to another 'Six'. Honestly, its like a cross between a disco, a circus, a carnival and a bike race. I cant even describe how amazing the live atmosphere is.
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Re: Whats the point of the derny?!

Postby brentono » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:45 am

HLC wrote:all the Keirin haters....

Keirin is my favourite track event! So much so, i own a Japanese Keirin bike.

Anyway, as outlined above, it has it's place in Keirin racing, it also had it's place at the 100 lap motor pace training sessions at the speed dome in perth.


Don't think there's any Keirin hater's here HLC :)
The OP made a valid point, and as you would know, even the Japanese who
originated the Keirin event, do not need a Derny :wink:
Meh-Still regret not shifting to Japan, and taking the circuit offer, back in the day.
As for Motorpaced Scratch Racing (and Training), a great spectacle, and it takes
a very good pacer, to maintain the correct speeds for the group, in either case.
Much in the reverse of a normal scratch race, the hardest place is getting on to
the rear. And the easiest is up on the Pacer.
Enjoy it HLC
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Re: Whats the point of the derny?!

Postby siennatrack » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:10 pm

As a kid I remember the best race to watch was
the 4up motor pace on our track 200m steep banked velo
the noise of the old honda step through getting wrung out
the drivers in white overalls with the buttons undone to
create a wind break great stuff then years later I got my turn
with an ex Aussie sprint champion on the bike pacing me when he
dropped off the last rider by 10 lengths I started to wonder
but as we wound up I understood why the gap because when we
made our move around the other bikes I was already on top of the
gear .Some of my best memories.
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Re: Whats the point of the derny?!

Postby KGB » Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:26 pm

Cossie Phil wrote:For my taste, I would like to see the derny going quick enough for the riders to work to stay on, if they arent working, I dont see the point in it being there.


I disagree here, although admittedly it was much better when the rules were looser and allowed more (any) contact and there was more jostling for position.
The early laps with the derny were spent fighting for position while the pace was gradually increased until the riders were launched into the last couple of laps. If they were "working" to keep up with the bike then there would be very little jockeying... I guess kinda like now! Oh well, its still good to see 6 fast blokes being launched into a 2 lap screamer.

Besides all that - they are sprinters remember. If it was hard work to keep up with the derny I imagine there would be plenty of Keirin races where the field just sat there watching each other and let the derny ride off!
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Re: Whats the point of the derny?!

Postby g-boaf » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:39 am

Pravda wrote:Yessss love the keirin!

Motorpace racing is also completely insane! Check out this one from Iljo Keisse .


And HLC, Tuesday Track nights at the speeddome in Perth are my favourite night of the week. Motorpace training is the reason I'm racing B grade these days.


Great video. :)
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