CAs new Junior Cycling Policy

[brades68]

All, what are your thoughts on the Junior Cycling Policy recently released by CA? In particular u9 to u15 (and probably most u17s) races where now it is part of the policy where prize-money is not to be awarded. How will that affect major track (and road) carnivals in your area, and how will you get juniors to nominate when they know they can't walk away with cash?

I'm looking ahead to next years Rockhampton Cup on Wheels where at this years carnival we had 50 juniors and 42 seniors. How can we attract juniors (and their parents) to this carnival and to the sport, when at best, the kids can win a trophy and a gift voucher to a shop they may not have heard about, or will ever see if they have long distances to travel? Will the Junior noms stay the same if there isn't prize-money? Will that reduce the overall pool for the seniors? Granted a lot of these questions will be answered within my own Club, but i'm curious as to what discussions your club has had.

We have already seen Cycling Qld drop the u9, u11 & u13 Road Race from the State Titles and use the "suitable adult supervision" clause of the Policy as an excuse.

link to Policy - http://tinyurl.com/pufubkr" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cheers
Mick

[foo on patrol]

Bigger fools than when I was racing are now running the sport and it won't get any better.

Foo

[queequeg]

I nodded off reading that. My 6 year old just wants to ride.

[foo on patrol]

I nodded off reading that. My 6 year old just wants to ride.

And this is the whole thing that these bloody fools with their OH&S crap and put it in the to hard basket idiots, just don't get!!!!!!!

Foo

[Top_Bhoy]

All, what are your thoughts on the Junior Cycling Policy recently released by CA? In particular u9 to u15 (and probably most u17s) races where now it is part of the policy where prize-money is not to be awarded. How will that affect major track (and road) carnivals in your area, and how will you get juniors to nominate when they know they can't walk away with cash?

I'm looking ahead to next years Rockhampton Cup on Wheels where at this years carnival we had 50 juniors and 42 seniors. How can we attract juniors (and their parents) to this carnival and to the sport, when at best, the kids can win a trophy and a gift voucher to a shop they may not have heard about, or will ever see if they have long distances to travel? Will the Junior noms stay the same if there isn't prize-money? Will that reduce the overall pool for the seniors? Granted a lot of these questions will be answered within my own Club, but i'm curious as to what discussions your club has had.

We have already seen Cycling Qld drop the u9, u11 & u13 Road Race from the State Titles and use the "suitable adult supervision" clause of the Policy as an excuse.

link to Policy - http://tinyurl.com/pufubkr" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cheers
Mick

Why do you see the "suitable adult supervision" clause in the policy as an excuse?

If it is the insurers have set out conditions that require a rider ratio of 2:5 in traffic situations these are are outside the control of event organisers and perhaps there really is a lack of adult supervision on this occasion.

Organisers have a responsibility for a large number of 7-13 year olds of varying ability together on an open road. They are on the hook for your childs safety and well-being and it shouldn't be a commitment they enter lightly into. If they can't attain the high safety requirements necessary, is it not better to postpone the event rather than cross their fingers and hope 'it will be alright on the day'? Perhaps there are reasons you know about but haven't stated as to why you believe it is an excuse.

If they could get a closed road (difficult I realise), that would probably lower the numbers of adults required. Or, could you not get together with other parents and offer to help?

[brades68]

If they can't attain the high safety requirements necessary, is it not better to postpone the event rather than cross their fingers and hope 'it will be alright on the day'? Perhaps there are reasons you know about but haven't stated as to why you believe it is an excuse.

If they could get a closed road (difficult I realise), that would probably lower the numbers of adults required. Or, could you not get together with other parents and offer to help?

They didn't postpone, they cancelled the event. The response by the CEO to an email i sent asking a number of questions stated the reasons as the "supervision & risk management strategies". The lazy way to manage risk is to not run an event. My reply back was an offer to review the risk management strategies at no cost as it's something i do on a regular basis. The road race for the others is not on a metropolitan road, but a rural road, a loop of about 8km (4 or so corners and a hill) and a full closure would be impractical. We aren't talking a massive number of riders here, maybe 20-25 on the course at the same time if they run the boys and girls together (with staggered start like has been done previously). We all know what kids are like at that age ability wise, they are unlikely to be one bunch throughout the race, but strung out over the course. Why not run the road race on the Crit course for the younger kids?

I would have loved the opportunity to help, even if it's jumping on my bike, riding around as a 'shepherd', standing on a corner, whatever, but unfortunately there was no consultation with parents or clubs, we were informed on the website of the decision to cancel.

IMHO the real issues are lack of communication / consultation and using the Policy as an excuse not to do something proactive.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

As for prize money, how many other junior sports have prize money? Prize money emphasises the importance of winning. That's generally counter productive for juniors overall participation.

Quote from AIS summarising the research into junior participation:

Much research has gone into why young people play sport and what they enjoy about it. An important thing to remember is to keep your child's best interests in mind and think about what they may want to achieve through their sport. Here is just a brief reminder of some points to consider.

Why do young people play sport?
Young people play sport for a number of reasons. Generally, young people play sport:

To have fun with their friends
For excitement and enjoyment
To experience challenge, achievement and personal responsibility
To improve their skills

Why do young people stop playing sport?
There are a number of factors that influence a young person’s decision to play sport and also to drop out of sport. What we do know is that young people do not enjoy sport when:

There is an over emphasis on winning by parents, coaches and others.
They don't get enough playing time
They can not play with their friends because of imposed grading systems
There is high praise for the best performers and little acknowledgement of others
They are made to feel uncomfortable
The coach is overly authoritarian

http://www.ausport.gov.au/participating ... motivation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As for specific events and suitable risk management, there is no doubt that an increasing emphasis on health and safety, but also considering outcomes e.g. from enquiries into sexual and other abuse of children under care of organisations (including sporting) means a lot more attention is going to be paid to all aspects to ensure the well being of children. If the type and level of supervision and care was inadequate and unable to be addressed in time, then cancellation is an option most definitely needed. It is unfair on those running the event on the day to accept the risk resulting from others that had not done sufficient planning to begin with. If it gets to that stage, then it's entirely reasonable to ask why an unacceptable level of risk arose and what can be done to ensure it doesn't happen again.

e.g. imagine turning up to commissaire an adult road race, and the promotor had not organised for on site medical/first aid support. The Commissaire has no choice but to not start an event until such support is in place. Proceeding otherwise is a dereliction of their duty of care.

[brawlo]

This is going to possibly kill regional events, and really any type of carnival style event. What children and their parents are going to travel with their kids if they are only going to get a cheap trophy if anything? How will eliminating prizemoney help this? Isn't a trophy still the same deal if they are worried about prizemoney putting an emphasis on winning? This is competition! People win and people come last. This decision is ridiculous in my book and I have 2 kids racing bikes over summer. One is in the transitional U15-U17 stage and she is out the back of the field because she doesn't want to put the hard yards into training, but she still likes racing despite that.

[brades68]

As for prize money, how many other junior sports have prize money? Prize money emphasises the importance of winning. That's generally counter productive for juniors overall participation.

Quote from AIS summarising the research into junior participation:

Much research has gone into why young people play sport and what they enjoy about it. An important thing to remember is to keep your child's best interests in mind and think about what they may want to achieve through their sport. Here is just a brief reminder of some points to consider.

Why do young people play sport?
Young people play sport for a number of reasons. Generally, young people play sport:

To have fun with their friends
For excitement and enjoyment
To experience challenge, achievement and personal responsibility
To improve their skills

Why do young people stop playing sport?
There are a number of factors that influence a young person’s decision to play sport and also to drop out of sport. What we do know is that young people do not enjoy sport when:

There is an over emphasis on winning by parents, coaches and others.
They don't get enough playing time
They can not play with their friends because of imposed grading systems
There is high praise for the best performers and little acknowledgement of others
They are made to feel uncomfortable
The coach is overly authoritarian

http://www.ausport.gov.au/participating ... motivation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As for specific events and suitable risk management, there is no doubt that an increasing emphasis on health and safety, but also considering outcomes e.g. from enquiries into sexual and other abuse of children under care of organisations (including sporting) means a lot more attention is going to be paid to all aspects to ensure the well being of children. If the type and level of supervision and care was inadequate and unable to be addressed in time, then cancellation is an option most definitely needed. It is unfair on those running the event on the day to accept the risk resulting from others that had not done sufficient planning to begin with. If it gets to that stage, then it's entirely reasonable to ask why an unacceptable level of risk arose and what can be done to ensure it doesn't happen again.

e.g. imagine turning up to commissaire an adult road race, and the promotor had not organised for on site medical/first aid support. The Commissaire has no choice but to not start an event until such support is in place. Proceeding otherwise is a dereliction of their duty of care.

All good points Alex, and please don't think I'm trying to fully push the prize-money or minimise the risk management and supervision. In the case i'm highlighting, it is a Junior State Road Championships - I don't think i'm alone in thinking the planning for this would be in depth and would take into account the points you've highlighted, as well as elements of the policy. If it got to that stage - last minute cancellation, then the organising committee would need to have a good hard look at themselves. I'm raising the prize-money among other things as I see it as an incentive to travel to race in regional areas. It certainly doesn't pay traveling costs, and shouldn't do either.

What's the incentive otherwise? How do we (we as in all of us who are members of a cycling club - executive or not), encourage participation in regional carnivals? Certainly not appearance fees!

In this case (my example), communication and consultation should have been entered into and maybe a solution could have been found. As a side note, i will be taking my girl - because she wants to race (State Titles are medals and no $$...... as it should be) to States. This will be a 14 hr round trip drive, 2 nights accommodation, for 30mins of racing. And i'm happy to do it, just another race would have been nice.

Cheers
Mick

[Top_Bhoy]

I would have loved the opportunity to help, even if it's jumping on my bike, riding around as a 'shepherd', standing on a corner, whatever, but unfortunately there was no consultation with parents or clubs, we were informed on the website of the decision to cancel.

IMHO the real issues are lack of communication / consultation and using the Policy as an excuse not to do something proactive.

If you've asked the relevant questions of the organisers, as a member of CA, you should be entitled to a more reasoned/detailed reply. Have you asked if its a 'one off' cancellation or if it's the intention to return the junior events to the calendar next year? Sounds an unsatisfactory situation which better communication could have helped lessen. Good luck with getting something sorted out for next year.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Junior's incentives for going to races (any sport really) is that they have fun racing, an opportunity to test themselves and apply what they've learned, to learn some more and to share an experience with their friends and family.

If prize money is really required for kids to want to go race bikes (or participate in any sport), then I'd find that pretty sad and an example of lost perspective on what's important.

[brawlo]

Junior's incentives for going to races (any sport really) is that they have fun racing, an opportunity to test themselves and apply what they've learned, to learn some more and to share an experience with their friends and family.

If prize money is really required for kids to want to go race bikes (or participate in any sport), then I'd find that pretty sad and an example of lost perspective on what's important.

Speaking for my own club here, we don't offer any money for week to week racing for juniors or seniors. The weekly club racing is purely to have fun and to improve yourself to some extent with some race practice/experience. The same could be said for the track carnivals and road tours too. Sure there is some incentive with money or prizes, but there are always that certain number of kids who know that they have no hope against certain others and they are really going to try to jag a win/position or improve their own PBs or beat other racers.

In my own experience, my kids have both won money prizes at carnivals. They are absolutely stoked to receive some cash that they can throw at the canteen for some lollies or whatever else. They would be less than impressed with a voucher for a bike shop or other that is essentially a token for their parents who are the true financiers of their sport.

Kids aren't stupid, they know who wins and who doesn't. I don't see the limiting of prizemoney in favour of vouchers achieving what CA say they want to achieve. If a kid needs prizemoney to go and race, then I would say that the parents and/or coaches need some guidance rather than the kids. The prizemoney is a hell of an incentive to keep pushing and to keep racing. Trophies are cheap, they can be thrown in with the deal at little cost for something to stick on the bookshelf/mantlepiece.

[brades68]

They are absolutely stoked to receive some cash that they can throw at the canteen for some lollies or whatever else. They would be less than impressed with a voucher for a bike shop or other that is essentially a token for their parents who are the true financiers of their sport.

Kids aren't stupid, they know who wins and who doesn't. I don't see the limiting of prizemoney in favour of vouchers achieving what CA say they want to achieve. If a kid needs prizemoney to go and race, then I would say that the parents and/or coaches need some guidance rather than the kids. The prizemoney is a hell of an incentive to keep pushing and to keep racing. Trophies are cheap, they can be thrown in with the deal at little cost for something to stick on the bookshelf/mantlepiece.

+100

[r2160]

While I appreciate that many clever people have done much research, I bet nobody asked the kids.

And I wonder if while we become a nanny state, is the level of supervision getting to high. With the little ones why cant adults ride at the back of the kids as supervisors perhaps.

If we dont get kids in the sport, the sport will die.

Glenn

[Alex Simmons/RST]

No one has answered the question about which other junior sports offer prize money.

[KGB]

While I appreciate that many clever people have done much research, I bet nobody asked the kids.
Glenn

Ah, wouldn't that be a significant part of the research? Just assuming - I haven't read any...

Alex, I definitely don't know of any other. I do know it was cool when I'd come home from a crit with $20 or $50 or a junior tour or track carnival with sometimes significantly more.

Having said that, I'd probably have been just as happy with a pair of tyres or something. It was cool at the penrith tour when Eddie Salas used to come and set up a stall so you could spend the vouchers you'd won.
If you were an out of towner, a voucher for a shop that was closed on a sunday arvo is next to useless. I think that is partly a problem for organisers to solve though.

I guess I'm on the fence here. I don't see it as a big deal.

[brawlo]

No one has answered the question about which other junior sports offer prize money.

Athletics does in it's various 'Gift' races. That is also possibly one of the closest compatible sports with cycling as far as competition goes.

I don't really have any problem with no prizemoney for club and regional representative events up to state level. They are a slightly different beast, but why also apply that to the carnival and tour scene where the big drawcard is the prizes. Also, why eliminate prizemoney and then allow vouchers? That doesn't really solve anything!

It appears that CA perceive a problem that really relates to parents and coaches and how they treat the children. They appear to want to solve this by taking the money away from the kids. The parents want their kids to become the next Cadel Evans et al. Parents and coaches who push their kids will continue to push their kids because that is the end goal in their eyes. Wouldn't CA be better off to take a different approach to the education of coaches and club directives towards the conduct of parents?

To me it seems like CA sees a problem with a wheel. But they're messing with the spokes when in reality the bearings are shot and need fixing.

[Top_Bhoy]

It should not be necessary to have written in a CA rule book what form the prizelist should take. Since criteria and priorities may differ between events, the decision to offer vouchers, prizes or money should be left in the hands of the local organisers.

[jcjordan]

Prize money has a way of ruining races. One of the reasons that my club decided to do away with it so that we could focus on after race goodies which encourages riders to hang around afterwards and chat

[ldrcycles]

At a club level i think entry fees would be much better spent going back into supporting the club rather than handing out 10 or 20 bucks here and there. As others have said, trophies can be very cheap. I still have the embroidered towel i got for winning my grade in squash 8 years ago, and appreciate that a lot more than a $20 note.

In terms of encouraging junior participation, emphasising the fun and trying to avoid the horrendous snobbery and bullying elitism that can happen in this sport are far more important. Come to think of it, that probably means getting your kids into MTB rather than road.

[Chris249]

While I appreciate that many clever people have done much research, I bet nobody asked the kids.

Glenn

How much do you want to put on that bet? Your best bike? Your car? Your house? I'll take anything you want to put up. It wouldn't be a fair bet, because the facts are that some surveys speak to hundreds of kids, and there are plenty of such surveys.

[Chris249]

At a club level i think entry fees would be much better spent going back into supporting the club rather than handing out 10 or 20 bucks here and there. As others have said, trophies can be very cheap. I still have the embroidered towel i got for winning my grade in squash 8 years ago, and appreciate that a lot more than a $20 note.

In terms of encouraging junior participation, emphasising the fun and trying to avoid the horrendous snobbery and bullying elitism that can happen in this sport are far more important. Come to think of it, that probably means getting your kids into MTB rather than road.

I'm 100% with you on the cash prizes, but also have to say that I've seen very little snobbery and elitism among those I actually race against. As an example, not a single racer has ever made a snobby comment about my $500 Sora/2200 level roadie.

Sure, there may be some cafe heroes who will turn their noses up at people, but in what sport do you not you get that?