NSW State Titles ...who's doing what?

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Re: NSW State Titles ...who's doing what?

Postby brawlo » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:34 am

Derny Driver wrote:Brawlo almost made Paul Craft's voice rise to fever pitch as he launched a huge attack 3 laps out from the first sprint in the points race this arvo. The turn of speed took me by surprise too as the big unit led out and managed to hold on for 4th and 1 measley point. Soon after that the current world points champ, the 2009 world points champ and the world hour record holder decided to flex some muscle. Wow. Jayson lapped the field twice by himself and amassed 63 points! The big 3 were incredible. Brawlo rode nicely in very classy company and was able to go with all the surges but was unable to get among the medals. Well done mate.


Ah no, alas it wasn't me DD. I opposed KGB I believe in the MMAS2 kilo. Hurt like hell! I only just got a bullhorn basebar last week, and I mysteriously thought it would be a great idea to do my first ever proper start on it at the states! It was also only my 4th time on aero bars so I definitely wasn't dialled in on position. I'm pretty sure my kilo was about 1050m long due to my unique racing line as I was really hurting into the 3rd lap. Still, I'm happy with the experience and it's a starting point to develop on for the future.

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Re: NSW State Titles ...who's doing what?

Postby Strawburger » Mon Feb 22, 2016 1:02 pm

Spotted both Marcus and Alex there, didn't come up and say gday though, you were both pretty busy!

As mike said earlier, we are pretty happy with our ride, even though we missed out on the bronze ride off.

Now for next weeks events!
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Re: NSW State Titles ...who's doing what?

Postby Derny Driver » Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:00 pm

brawlo wrote:Ah no, alas it wasn't me DD..

Im getting my BNA pseudonyms mixed up. It was Rowan from LACC.

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Re: NSW State Titles ...who's doing what?

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:40 pm

Derny Driver wrote:
brawlo wrote:Ah no, alas it wasn't me DD..

Im getting my BNA pseudonyms mixed up. It was Rowan from LACC.
once the lycra and helmets are on, only their mother can tell them apart.

I'm guilty of not really knowing who on this forum is who at the velodrome. I should of said hello to the fellow BNA posters.

Enjoyed chatting to DD and Alex, always a pleasure
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Re: NSW State Titles ...who's doing what?

Postby Derny Driver » Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:37 pm

mikesbytes wrote:
Enjoyed chatting to DD and Alex, always a pleasure

Yeah thanks for coming over and sitting with me Mike, I was so busy earlier I didnt even get time to chat to Alex, just a quick Hi as I ran past.

SIMON make sure you come and talk to me before the pursuit. Tell me what gear you are riding and what lap times you think you will be doing. Are you just planning to ride around and post a time or are you going balls out for a medal?
Tim Bateman is one of the best pursuiters in Australia, I remember taking him to Nationals in Melbourne in 2010 and he qualified fastest but got his pacing wrong and started too fast in the final. Ended up with silver. He did around 3:35 from memory. I think 3:45 will get Gold on Sunday.
Pursuiting is all about getting the first lap right. When I train people we just do heaps of 2 lap starts to get that timing right. Rarely do a full pursuit in training unless we are weeks out from the event. You need to get on top of the gear without going too hard in the first half lap. Cadence lap one is usually about 115 or so and then you settle back to your race cadence which in my opinion, is the magic number 106. Try and hold 106 for lap after lap. The following schedule shows the first 2 laps slightly fast as you get on top of the gear and then settle into your pace. If you start too slow, at cadence 100 or something, you cannot speed up that big gear. Better to start with good cadence say around 115 and then allow it to settle back a notch. Then you just concentrate and tap out the rhythm. Last laps you will die slightly but as long as the gear is not too big you should be able to keep fairly close to the projected lap time.
I would suggest for you Simon, a gear of around 94 and a schedule like this:
24.0 + 17.9
41.9 + 18.5
1.00.4 + 18.9
1.19.3 + 19.0
1.38.3 + 19.0
1.57.3 + 19.0
2.16.3 + 19.0
2.35.3 + 19.1
2.54.4 + 19.3
3.13.7 + 19.5
3.33.2 + 19.8
3:53.0

53-15 (95) is an excellent gear for pursuiting due to the larger diameter cogs, it rolls nicely once you get it going. But because of the unusual size chainring, you need a longer chain and most people dont bother mucking around with it. They ride 94 or 96. Tim will probably be on 96 or possibly 98 if he is feeling good and it is a fast day. I reckon do the qualifying on the 94 - you are a good pedaller, I think its better to err on the side of slightly too small a gear, at least you will be able to finish strongly rather on die a painful death in the last 3 laps on too big a gear.
Alex may have some thoughts?
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Re: NSW State Titles ...who's doing what?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:25 am

Derny Driver wrote:Alex may have some thoughts?

Too many to write!

You are bang on the money about nailing the start - just about everyone goes too hard for too long. If you are still pushing hard when exiting turn 4, you are going too hard. If you are still pushing hard at end of the starting straight and at the beginning of lap 2, then the race is almost all over red rover. You will die a horrible death.

Think about it - most people are able to hit target speed by the time they finish the back straight and there's really no need to be much more than 1-2 km/h over that (or a bit more if measuring wheel speed the turn). Otherwise you are simply wasting far too much of your precious energy resource into increasing kinetic energy (much of which you don't regain since you cross the finish line with speed) and the fact that the power demand for each km/h over target speed is very high. That is wasted energy that is desperately needed at the back end of the pursuit.

Taking Derny's cadence ROT (although I think it's relative - some riders will prefer to be a bit faster or slower in pedalling rate, so it's what works for you) then if 106rpm equates to your target speed in the straight, then 2km/h faster = +4rpm, plus in the turns the wheel speed (and hence cadence) also goes up naturally with no actual change in effort (due to the centre of mass travelling a different radius than the wheels and also the slight change in gravitational potential energy being converted to kinetic energy as the COM drops a little). That adds another few rpm. So if 106 is the cadence on the straight you are aiming for at cruise pace and you expect to hit a top speed ~ 2km/h above intended cruise speed, then that'll end up being ~112-114 rpm in the early turns.

Just looking at my last pursuit (which was 4km at 2011 national para champs) I peaked at 110rpm and cruised at 106rpm on average (varied from 104-105 on the straights to 107-108 in the turns). It was a new national record time but my finals opponent then also set a new record!

In team pursuit my cadence was much higher. In same year I did masters TP in the 150+ and we did a 2:21.x (which at the time was a national record). Peak cadence was 126rpm and average after the acceleration phase was 119rpm. You need to be able to manage higher pedal speeds in TP to cope with the much more variable power demand compared with IP.

And as Derny says, the start process requires lots of practice to nail it and to know exactly what it feels like (because by the time you have the timing feedback, it's generally too late to do much about it).

Too hard a start will easily add several seconds to the time you could have attained. Having said that, you don't go out of the blocks like a powder puff either! It's still a solid start, and exactly how you accelerate will be determined somewhat by your phenotype - some get up to speed more quickly than others.

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Re: NSW State Titles ...who's doing what?

Postby Strawburger » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:41 pm

Awesome posts Marcus and Alex. I don't know how to thank you for all that effort!

I'll grab you early Marcus to chat about gearing and goals, ill drop you an email as well to note my thoughts.

Last minute prep tonight down at Tempe, looks like I'll be practicing a few starts (but not too many :) )

Thank you again!
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Re: NSW State Titles ...who's doing what?

Postby Chris249 » Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:40 pm

[quote="Derny Driver"][quote="mikesbytes"]
Tim Bateman is one of the best pursuiters in Australia,/quote]

He was also a damn good windsurfer and a great guy to race against. I don't know if he ever won an overall nationals on the boards, but I think he probably got a masters nationals or two.

I got into bike racing a few years after he did so when I bumped into him when doing my second TT at Calga I asked him what times he was getting. I was pretty happy when he said "35/45" 'cause they were the same numbers I got at my first attempt. It was only after he got second that I realised that to me "35/45" was averaging 35kmh and finishing in 45 minutes, but to him "35/45" meant finishing in 35 minutes and averaging 45kmh. I had no idea that he was already at the top of the nationals rankings. :oops: :shock:
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Re: NSW State Titles ...who's doing what?

Postby Chris249 » Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:45 pm

And thanks to DD and Alex for those great posts.
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Re: NSW State Titles ...who's doing what?

Postby Derny Driver » Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:44 pm

Chris249 wrote:
Derny Driver wrote:Tim Bateman is one of the best pursuiters in Australia,/quote]

He was also a damn good windsurfer and a great guy to race against. I don't know if he ever won an overall nationals on the boards, but I think he probably got a masters nationals or two.

Tim is the most humble unassuming bloke you will ever meet. I know he is National class on the MTBs but I have no idea of his victories in that discipline as i dont follow it and he doesnt talk about it.
But since you are telling funny anecdotes I will swap you a story.

We went to Masters track Nationals in Melbourne in 2010 and roomed together and talked pursuit stuff from the comfort of the beds. We took photos of the third bloke in our group who was pretending to sleep in his rainbow jersey which he had recently won in the World Masters points race, funny stuff. We had done a few practise pursuits before we went, Tim was quite inexperienced but strong and very fast. He was fastest qualifier and in the final was up against a guy who was a full time bike rider who slept in an oxygen tent. That guy has since won a world pursuit title and served a 2 year ban for PEDs. Anyway Tim lost in the final due to poor pacing, was happy with silver but I wasnt.
We had Tim entered in the Points race even though he had never ridden with other riders on a track and was almost blind without his glasses which he doesnt wear when racing. I had done the homework on the other riders who included a number of road and track cycling champions and legends.
My plan was to stand on the edge of the track, read the race, and use a large clip board and black marker to relay information to Tim during the race, as well as hand signals and general yelling and screaming. While all the other coaches sat quietly in their chairs I was on the edge of the track and each time Tim came around he would look at me and ask what to do. The texta signs said "go with #47" or "watch #17" or "Take a lap NOW" and things like that. Tim was squinting at the clipboard and following instructions. He took a lap early with the 2 big favourites who then proceeded to clean up the sprints to add more points. Tim cant sprint to save his life and was too scared to contest them anyway. At half race distance I saw the favourites caught in bad position and looking tired so I screamed at Tim to attack. He then amazingly took a second lap solo, with encouragement from my friend and I. With 10 laps to go he was mathematically unable to be beaten so the last sign read "Dont fall off - You cant lose". He then circulated at the back of the pack and crossed the line to take Gold. Im pretty sure all the other coaches thought we were a bunch of lunatics with our antics but we didnt care.
Tim also got the champion of champions jersey for his age group due to 1st in the Points, 2nd in the pursuit, and I think 4th in the TT.

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Re: NSW State Titles ...who's doing what?

Postby Row-D » Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:47 pm

Derny Driver wrote:
brawlo wrote:Ah no, alas it wasn't me DD..

Im getting my BNA pseudonyms mixed up. It was Rowan from LACC.

Yes that was me. Thanks for the kind words DD.
Fortunately they split the medals so I did end up getting a Silver for my efforts in the Points and Bronze in the Scratch. Some consolation for being well and truly worked over all weekend.

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Re: NSW State Titles ...who's doing what?

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:38 pm

A new stem has improved my TT position for tomorrows Individual Pursuit but the position is still a long way from ideal

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Unfortunately only 3 in my age division. 2 very fast rides and me :( You have to beat someone so there will only be 2 medals. If there were more riders perhaps I'd have a sniff of the bronze but the silver is out of my reach.
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: NSW State Titles ...who's doing what?

Postby Derny Driver » Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:12 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Unfortunately only 3 in my age division. 2 very fast rides and me :( You have to beat someone so there will only be 2 medals. If there were more riders perhaps I'd have a sniff of the bronze but the silver is out of my reach.

You did well Mike, 2:47.2 is a decent time in anyone's books especially MMA6. The guy who won your division asked me to walk the line for him in the Final and run him at a schedule of 2:30 .... I nearly fell over. Anyway, I did, and he recorded 2:31.5 Freak! And after that he told me he is going to join my club next year so he can ride with my crew. I'll have him :)

KGB needed no help and tapped out a tidy 3:52.4 over the 3km which is around 47-48kph average. Well done mate.

Simon was surprisingly smooth and paced himself perfectly with lap times within a tenth of each other, 3:57.399 on his first attempt. He looked pro with all the aero gear on but forgot to shave his legs, probably half a second a lap lost right there lol. Great job mate, very impressive.

My lady was .4 of a second off a medal in her division, it was her first pursuit as well. Good learning experience which we can build on.

PS Mike I forgot to help you with you shoes, so sorry about that.

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Re: NSW State Titles ...who's doing what?

Postby foo on patrol » Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:58 am

I call sabotage on the shoe front, Mike. Don't you trust that DD character, he's shifty as. [emoji12]

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Re: NSW State Titles ...who's doing what?

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Feb 29, 2016 1:04 pm

Thanks DD, my PB is 2.40. I've been getting steadily slower 2.40 -> 2.42 -> 2.45 -> 2.47. Next year I'm going to run lower gearing, probably drop from 50-14 to 48-14

The 2.31.5 Was that Peter V or the guy from Bega? Dominique? I was chatting to him prior, he has no access to a velodrome, the nearest one is Canberra, 2.5 hours away so he trains entirely on the road. I gather he is very fast at road TT.

Overall I've been happy with the championship;
Points race. Decided to simply circulate and pick up a medal due to low entry. Only to find out afterwards that you had to beat someone :oops: Peter V found out afterwards that the medals had been combined and he missed out too :). The points race is my only Australian Medal, I took Bronze in 2011 in a large M5 (only) field.

Team Pursuit. We set a new club record of 2.37 with little aero equipment and only 30 minutes of training together. Myself and one other of us had the previous club record at 2.40. Only missed the bronze ride off by 2 seconds.

Scratch. Got myself into 3rd wheel with 2 laps to go and that strategy got me a medal, the silver one. While gold was unbeatable, I was thrilled to have beaten Peter V for the silver, I didn't expect to be able to achieve that. Last time I won a medal was NSW town and country a few years ago where I won M5 outright.

Individual Pursuit With my back improving and off pain killers I felt confident to sit in an aero position, used my aero wheels,which are sporting new singles as I double flatted them at Calga, thanks to our friend the pot hole. I'd got a new adjustable stem, which turned out not to be as adjustable as I expected but still better than my pista stem, so got myself into a slightly better position. Have to admit I felt I was going faster than the time I actually did. My quads and glutes couldn't pump out any more power while breathing was not maxed out. Fresh legs are something I can't always provide, I've gone 20 days without a rest day. So the good thing about the IP was that it gave me feedback that I'd be better off with lower gearing. As Strawburger said afterwards 'towards the end I knew you were peddling faster but it looked like 80rpm'.

So for next year, yet another stem to get lower and a lower gear, possibly 48*14
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: NSW State Titles ...who's doing what?

Postby Derny Driver » Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:50 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Thanks DD, my PB is 2.40. I've been getting steadily slower 2.40 -> 2.42 -> 2.45 -> 2.47. Next year I'm going to run lower gearing, probably drop from 50-14 to 48-14

The 2.31.5 Was that Peter V or the guy from Bega? Dominique? I was chatting to him prior...

48-14 too small mate. 49-14 is good. My brother did 2:30 on 49-14 so you can do a good time on that if you are a good pedaller. Or 52-15 which is 93.6 and has the longer chain factor.

Yeah, Dominique was the guy :wink:

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Re: NSW State Titles ...who's doing what?

Postby Derny Driver » Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:13 pm

foo on patrol wrote:I call sabotage on the shoe front, Mike. Don't you trust that DD character, he's shifty as. [emoji12]

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Re: NSW State Titles ...who's doing what?

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:09 pm

Derny Driver wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:Thanks DD, my PB is 2.40. I've been getting steadily slower 2.40 -> 2.42 -> 2.45 -> 2.47. Next year I'm going to run lower gearing, probably drop from 50-14 to 48-14

The 2.31.5 Was that Peter V or the guy from Bega? Dominique? I was chatting to him prior...

48-14 too small mate. 49-14 is good. My brother did 2:30 on 49-14 so you can do a good time on that if you are a good pedaller. Or 52-15 which is 93.6 and has the longer chain factor.

Yeah, Dominique was the guy :wink:
The only problem your bother has is Geoffry Baxter :)

Haven't done the maths, how close would the cadence be 49*14 (AT) 2.30 vs 48*14 (AT) 2.40 (my PB)?

The other factor is that I work at as spin instructor so I do a lot of high cadence activity
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Re: NSW State Titles ...who's doing what?

Postby Derny Driver » Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:10 pm

mikesbytes wrote:
Haven't done the maths, how close would the cadence be 49*14 (AT) 2.30 vs 48*14 (AT) 2.40 (my PB)?

2:30 pace on 49-14 = cadence 112
2:40 pace on 48:14 = cadence 107

PS yes Geoff is a great bike rider and a great person. Very hard to beat.

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Re: NSW State Titles ...who's doing what?

Postby Strawburger » Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:11 pm

Derny Driver wrote:
Simon was surprisingly smooth and paced himself perfectly with lap times within a tenth of each other, 3:57.399 on his first attempt. He looked pro with all the aero gear on but forgot to shave his legs, probably half a second a lap lost right there lol. Great job mate, very impressive.

My lady was .4 of a second off a medal in her division, it was her first pursuit as well. Good learning experience which we can build on.


Thanks again for all your help and the loaner wheels. Looked very pro! Got to work on the wife and the leg shaving bit hahaha

Bummer your triathlete fell agonisingly short. Hope all goes well in the Nationals!
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Re: NSW State Titles ...who's doing what?

Postby Chris249 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:08 pm

Derny Driver wrote:Tim Bateman is one of the best pursuiters in Australiaim is the most humble unassuming bloke you will ever meet. I know he is National class on the MTBs but I have no idea of his victories in that discipline as i dont follow it and he doesnt talk about it.
But since you are telling funny anecdotes I will swap you a story.

We went to Masters track Nationals in Melbourne in 2010 and roomed together and talked pursuit stuff from the comfort of the beds. We took photos of the third bloke in our group who was pretending to sleep in his rainbow jersey which he had recently won in the World Masters points race, funny stuff. We had done a few practise pursuits before we went, Tim was quite inexperienced but strong and very fast. He was fastest qualifier and in the final was up against a guy who was a full time bike rider who slept in an oxygen tent. That guy has since won a world pursuit title and served a 2 year ban for PEDs. Anyway Tim lost in the final due to poor pacing, was happy with silver but I wasnt.
We had Tim entered in the Points race even though he had never ridden with other riders on a track and was almost blind without his glasses which he doesnt wear when racing. I had done the homework on the other riders who included a number of road and track cycling champions and legends.
My plan was to stand on the edge of the track, read the race, and use a large clip board and black marker to relay information to Tim during the race, as well as hand signals and general yelling and screaming. While all the other coaches sat quietly in their chairs I was on the edge of the track and each time Tim came around he would look at me and ask what to do. The texta signs said "go with #47" or "watch #17" or "Take a lap NOW" and things like that. Tim was squinting at the clipboard and following instructions. He took a lap early with the 2 big favourites who then proceeded to clean up the sprints to add more points. Tim cant sprint to save his life and was too scared to contest them anyway. At half race distance I saw the favourites caught in bad position and looking tired so I screamed at Tim to attack. He then amazingly took a second lap solo, with encouragement from my friend and I. With 10 laps to go he was mathematically unable to be beaten so the last sign read "Dont fall off - You cant lose". He then circulated at the back of the pack and crossed the line to take Gold. Im pretty sure all the other coaches thought we were a bunch of lunatics with our antics but we didnt care.
Tim also got the champion of champions jersey for his age group due to 1st in the Points, 2nd in the pursuit, and I ,


[/quote]

Good to hear. I just realised I should make it clear that when I said I don't know if he'd won an overall nationals on the boards, I meant windsurfer boards and not velodrome boards. :D
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Re: NSW State Titles ...who's doing what?

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:12 pm

Derny Driver wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:
Haven't done the maths, how close would the cadence be 49*14 (AT) 2.30 vs 48*14 (AT) 2.40 (my PB)?

2:30 pace on 49-14 = cadence 112
2:40 pace on 48:14 = cadence 107

PS yes Geoff is a great bike rider and a great person. Very hard to beat.


Thanks DD, not a lot in it, could go lower again but I brought a CNC 48t already so might try that and as I probably won't do any training between now and 2016 its a suck it and see. Though a 46t might serve me even better and perhaps I should shave my legs, the Mrs doesn't like my man fur, says its too hot.

My friends are going to Calga on Sunday, if I do that I won't get a rest day for 28 days, so the jury is still out
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Re: NSW State Titles ...who's doing what?

Postby KGB » Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:50 am

Derny Driver wrote:KGB needed no help and tapped out a tidy 3:52.4 over the 3km which is around 47-48kph average. Well done mate.


Thanks DD. I fell crook after the scratch race weekend so my legs felt pretty bad. I backed off the schedule a bit and while the time was not fast enough to get me some bling, my start was controlled and lap pacing was really, really consistent so at least I'm improving in some areas. Last year my pacing was abysmal - everything you and Alex mentioned above about going too hard at the start and over the first lap or two was what I did - and then predictably died a horrible death. Proctor was on another level and went significantly faster than last year, well done to him.
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Re: NSW State Titles ...who's doing what?

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:51 pm

DD's right that our times are good. We have a bar set and when we don't reach that height, then we are not happy, but who else in our respective clubs / age group can meet the time we are not happy with, in reality we are comparing ourselves with the best in the state.

In my neck of the woods, our team pursuit team consisted of 2 members from each of the 2 road TTT teams. And out of the 4 of us, the slowest one at Calga set a PB on Sunday bringing 3 of us with 3 seconds of each other with Strawburger 40 seconds quicker. Now it has been proposed that we stick together as the TTT team, which means excluding 2 faster riders and 2 slower riders. We are very even over the full distance. 2 of us are better on the way out and 2 of us are better on the way back.

Its an interesting proposal, do away with the 2 faster riders and keep everything very very even
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: NSW State Titles ...who's doing what?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:52 am

mikesbytes wrote:DD's right that our times are good. We have a bar set and when we don't reach that height, then we are not happy, but who else in our respective clubs / age group can meet the time we are not happy with, in reality we are comparing ourselves with the best in the state.

In my neck of the woods, our team pursuit team consisted of 2 members from each of the 2 road TTT teams. And out of the 4 of us, the slowest one at Calga set a PB on Sunday bringing 3 of us with 3 seconds of each other with Strawburger 40 seconds quicker. Now it has been proposed that we stick together as the TTT team, which means excluding 2 faster riders and 2 slower riders. We are very even over the full distance. 2 of us are better on the way out and 2 of us are better on the way back.

Its an interesting proposal, do away with the 2 faster riders and keep everything very very even


Dropping the overall horsepower available to a team is a mistake, unless there are clear technical reasons not to ride with someone.

It's about using the horsepower wisely. More powerful riders need to learn to not go faster, but to do longer turns. That means the weaker members can rider faster but shorter turns since they get more recovery time. In that way the overall pace of the team is lifted. But to do that means training together so the riders understand the best team dynamic, and also how to effectively communicate. Problems always happen with teams that don't communicate well.

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