Advice for beginner for performance, confidence etc.

Individual and Team TT

Re: Advice for beginner for performance, confidence etc.

Postby Grim » Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:22 pm

You have some interesting motivation to "Timetrial" per se.

A couple of fundamental points about TT:

Time Trialling is a discipline based around a specific distance for which competitors train whcih can vary between a few kilometres to the more generally popular distance of 40km. You won't often see many TT races much longer especially at Club levels, although there are notable exceptions on the racing circuits.

One shouldn't confuse training for TT with training for a Triathlon although people tend to interchange the setup and bikes between the two. Setup, training and especially "pacing" is entirely different.

Number 1 priority before purchasing a bike (Any Bike) especially a race specific like a TT bike is bike fit before you even contemplate the type and manufacturer assuming you have a set budget.

Number 2 is to match your new setup numbers to the geometry range of the bikes that strike your fancy and see where you sit.

Number 3 is to then purchase the bike and then get the bike setup to a baseline and then work on any adjustments needed to fine tune depending on factors like your level of flexibility/fitness, equipment setup and any additional items you want to incorporate.

Training for TT is very targeted around raising your VO2 Max, FTP and your ability to endure an excruitating level of pain if you are going to be at all serious about it. No offense intended but it seems that your foray into purchasing a TT bike is more about getting a bit of free speed and bling along with some bike tech which is all well and good but ultimately misguided if you're concerned about getting enough mileage to make the purchase worthwhile.

Having an indoor trainer is of paramount importance if you are looking to consistently improve your performance irrespective of road or TT racing and allows you to take regular baselines throughout the year to track your progress and maintain targeted type training, also of significant impact is to have a power meter which gives you real time metrics even better than a heart rate monitor alone.

As to the point of riding in full "racing" gear, aero helmet, rear disc, deep rim front, if you're not racing, just don't do it as you will mark yourself out as a full on tosser especially if you're getting passed by hipsters on single speeds wearing their tweed and hand knitted ear warmers (joke), also any coming off or accidental impacts will correspondingly increase your repair bill but if you aren't concerned about that and also don't worry about roadies casting scorn and derision in your direction, your choice.
If you'e in AU an important note is that most readily available aero helmets do no have the Australian Standards Certification so any accidents involving head trauma WILL NOT be covered by insurance. Internationally recognised standards such as CPSC wil cover you for closed circuit racing under WTC but any road racing or TT races which are UCI sanctioned in Australia requires the Australian Standards sticker so to do so will be at your own risk.

Last point is that speed is a very arbitrary measure influenced by a great many factors and variabless and is not the point of reference you should be using to measure your performance levels unless you can replicate the conditions each time you baseline.

GL
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by BNA » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:04 pm

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Re: Advice for beginner for performance, confidence etc.

Postby Duck! » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:04 pm

Grim wrote:
If you'e in AU an important note is that most readily available aero helmets do no have the Australian Standards Certification so any accidents involving head trauma WILL NOT be covered by insurance. Internationally recognised standards such as CPSC wil cover you for closed circuit racing under WTC but any road racing or TT races which are UCI sanctioned in Australia requires the Australian Standards sticker so to do so will be at your own risk.

Worth pointing out here that a sure-fire way of ensuring a helmet is Aus Standards approved is if you can buy it in a shop here - yeah, I know, what a weird concept. All bike helmets, whether normal everyday lids, full-face downhill MTB brainbuckets or TT helmets MUST have Australian Standards approval to be sold here. Even the same model helmets sourced from OS suppliers often will not have the all-important "load-bearing" sticker.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.
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Re: Advice for beginner for performance, confidence etc.

Postby boss » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:36 pm

Grim wrote:You have some interesting motivation to "Timetrial" per se.

A couple of fundamental points about TT:

Time Trialling is a discipline based around a specific distance for which competitors train whcih can vary between a few kilometres to the more generally popular distance of 40km. You won't often see many TT races much longer especially at Club levels, although there are notable exceptions on the racing circuits.

One shouldn't confuse training for TT with training for a Triathlon although people tend to interchange the setup and bikes between the two. Setup, training and especially "pacing" is entirely different.

Number 1 priority before purchasing a bike (Any Bike) especially a race specific like a TT bike is bike fit before you even contemplate the type and manufacturer assuming you have a set budget.

Number 2 is to match your new setup numbers to the geometry range of the bikes that strike your fancy and see where you sit.

Number 3 is to then purchase the bike and then get the bike setup to a baseline and then work on any adjustments needed to fine tune depending on factors like your level of flexibility/fitness, equipment setup and any additional items you want to incorporate.

Training for TT is very targeted around raising your VO2 Max, FTP and your ability to endure an excruitating level of pain if you are going to be at all serious about it. No offense intended but it seems that your foray into purchasing a TT bike is more about getting a bit of free speed and bling along with some bike tech which is all well and good but ultimately misguided if you're concerned about getting enough mileage to make the purchase worthwhile.

Having an indoor trainer is of paramount importance if you are looking to consistently improve your performance irrespective of road or TT racing and allows you to take regular baselines throughout the year to track your progress and maintain targeted type training, also of significant impact is to have a power meter which gives you real time metrics even better than a heart rate monitor alone.

As to the point of riding in full "racing" gear, aero helmet, rear disc, deep rim front, if you're not racing, just don't do it as you will mark yourself out as a full on tosser especially if you're getting passed by hipsters on single speeds wearing their tweed and hand knitted ear warmers (joke), also any coming off or accidental impacts will correspondingly increase your repair bill but if you aren't concerned about that and also don't worry about roadies casting scorn and derision in your direction, your choice.
If you'e in AU an important note is that most readily available aero helmets do no have the Australian Standards Certification so any accidents involving head trauma WILL NOT be covered by insurance. Internationally recognised standards such as CPSC wil cover you for closed circuit racing under WTC but any road racing or TT races which are UCI sanctioned in Australia requires the Australian Standards sticker so to do so will be at your own risk.

Last point is that speed is a very arbitrary measure influenced by a great many factors and variabless and is not the point of reference you should be using to measure your performance levels unless you can replicate the conditions each time you baseline.

GL


+1 to all of that.

Riding a TT bike in full kit and getting annoyed when people look at you or make comments is like buying a Ferrari and complaining that everyone looks at you when you drive around. Sure, there's some tall poppy syndrome going on... but for the most part people are just drueling.

Aside from that, I did enjoy then irony of the OP getting mad when others judged him... Yet simultaneously judged others purely on his own perceptions of them based on a few words or an isolated action. I love internets!
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Re: Advice for beginner for performance, confidence etc.

Postby DoubleSpeeded » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:45 am

Grim wrote:

As to the point of riding in full "racing" gear, aero helmet, rear disc, deep rim front, if you're not racing, just don't do it as you will mark yourself out as a full on tosser especially if you're getting passed by hipsters on single speeds wearing their tweed and hand knitted ear warmers (joke), also any coming off or accidental impacts will correspondingly increase your repair bill but if you aren't concerned about that and also don't worry about roadies casting scorn and derision in your direction, your choice.
If you'e in AU an important note is that most readily available aero helmets do no have the Australian Standards Certification so any accidents involving head trauma WILL NOT be covered by insurance. Internationally recognised standards such as CPSC wil cover you for closed circuit racing under WTC but any road racing or TT races which are UCI sanctioned in Australia requires the Australian Standards sticker so to do so will be at your own risk.

GL


Firstly, Thats a pretty incorrect comment on Aust standards there my friend... as Duck has mentioned also:
Duck! wrote:Re: Advice for beginner for performance, confidence etc.
by Duck! » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:04 pm

Grim wrote:

If you'e in AU an important note is that most readily available aero helmets do no have the Australian Standards Certification so any accidents involving head trauma WILL NOT be covered by insurance. Internationally recognised standards such as CPSC wil cover you for closed circuit racing under WTC but any road racing or TT races which are UCI sanctioned in Australia requires the Australian Standards sticker so to do so will be at your own risk.

Worth pointing out here that a sure-fire way of ensuring a helmet is Aus Standards approved is if you can buy it in a shop here - yeah, I know, what a weird concept. All bike helmets, whether normal everyday lids, full-face downhill MTB brainbuckets or TT helmets MUST have Australian Standards approval to be sold here. Even the same model helmets sourced from OS suppliers often will not have the all-important "load-bearing" sticker.


Australia actually has a strict code of standards on consumer products as well as Strict code of conduct in goods and service supplied by servicemen. even Motor Vehicles need to be complied and certified to be sold on the Australian market.


Here is the sticker to prove:
Image

from Kask Bambino TT: which have been certified to be sold here in Aust.

Image

So your saying. You see a guy wearing a TT helmet... you immediately think "oh hes a tosser!"? And i suppose you think everyone else thinks antisocially like you too?
And say if a guy wearing a TT helmet had an accident or in trouble you wont assist because you branded him a "tosser"? Nice one, good to know that i am a Tosser to you... ill make sure ill introduce myself as Tosser to you next time if it makes you happier
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Re: Advice for beginner for performance, confidence etc.

Postby Grim » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:04 pm

"Firstly, Thats a pretty incorrect comment on Aust standards there my friend... as Duck has mentioned also: "

I think you should actually read my comments that you NEED to have an AU Standards sticker for riding unless you are competing in sanctioned races which allows for International Standards like CPSC for WTC closed circuit.

"Australia actually has a strict code of standards on consumer products as well as Strict code of conduct in goods and service supplied by servicemen. even Motor Vehicles need to be complied and certified to be sold on the Australian market"

Ah....no faecal matter, btw, nice helmet, good to see another choice in the very small Aero Helmet market in AU even for the exhorbident price.

"So your saying. You see a guy wearing a TT helmet... you immediately think "oh hes a tosser!"? And i suppose you think everyone else thinks antisocially like you too?
"
If I can again point out that I did prefix the sentence with (joke) with the expectation that that will be the general attitude you will get from most roadies out there IF you choose to go on your weekend rides in full aero gear, so thinking otherwise is missing the point.

"And say if a guy wearing a TT helmet had an accident or in trouble you wont assist because you branded him a "tosser"? Nice one, good to know that i am a Tosser to you... ill make sure ill introduce myself as Tosser to you next time if it makes you happier"

"i find road bike riders are the most arrogant (no offence intended to anyone guys).. "

You're taking the aero defensive position a tad too hard here as no one is suggesting we burn aero witches at the stake, just expect a bit of attitude from roadies which is all par for course if you're in full aero getup on a bike track and you would have experienced this already so instead of getting hung up about it, take the feedback for what it is given you asked for it (feedback) in your original post.

If you're really serious about increasing your TT performance, you should be concentrating on targeted training to increasing your V02 max and FTP and not getting hung up about how aero slippery you can be on a social ride and to clear any confusion, this statement is not meant as a negative on you but just what needs to be done to be a better TT'er. You might be surprised that the best TT'ers don't actually spend a lot of time on their TT bikes other than dialling in their positions in the wind tunnel, Triathletes are the ones who tend to spend exclusive time and you don't sound much like a Triathlete. All things aside, lets step back from the accusations and "trolling" category and get back to how you can be better at the discipline of TT, repeatable, repetitive and hard training, training and btw.....training.
Last edited by Grim on Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Advice for beginner for performance, confidence etc.

Postby vander » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:41 pm

As a few of my faster mates have said train slow race fast. They train in non-aero gear/positions as it gives better training effect (more power for a given speed) and is generally slower (and thus safer). The only need to get kitted up is to get used to your kit/position, this doesnt take anywhere near as long as you are suggesting. The main reason why roadies dont like people being in the aerokit and position is its not safe. Being on the aerobars you do not have immediate access to your brakes so if something happens it takes a lot longer to respond. Though it has gotten much better the vision out of the TT helmets is not as good as road helmets (and they are hotter).

Most the time you just cannot go fast enough safely enough fully kitted up, so you are better off saving those session for on the trainer/race days or very few training days.
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Re: Advice for beginner for performance, confidence etc.

Postby Derny Driver » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:21 pm

I haven't commented on this thread because from the first post I have had the troll bells ringing in my ears.
Shock horror, get all defensive DS, but I think you are giving everyone a cheeky rev up.
However I must say that Grim, vander, dalai. t.a.d and the other posters have given some excellent advice which I agree with wholeheartedly.
That's all Im saying on this topic.
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Re: Advice for beginner for performance, confidence etc.

Postby thearthurdog » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:36 pm

Just want to politely disagree with a couple of comments about training on the TT bike. If you want to learn to TT well, you MUST train a LOT on your TT bike. The main reason is that there will always (almost always) be a gap in the amount of watts you produce on a TT bike vs a roadie. It varies from person to person. This is a result of the more aero position on the TT rig. We use these positions of course, because the aero gains wipe out the lost watts. Blunt example of: 10 watts lost in power + 25 watts gained in aero = 15 watts gain. The more time you spend on your TT bike the more efficient you will become and the power 'gap' will be reduced.
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Re: Advice for beginner for performance, confidence etc.

Postby thearthurdog » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:42 pm

The other thing I would advise is becoming extremely proficient in riding a bicycle before you start riding really fast on a decked out TT rig on public roads / paths. The aero wheels, aero bars, disc (?) all make the bike far more difficult to manage than a normal road bike. I would really be spending a lot of quality time on the roadie as a new (I assume you still consider yourself a newer rider?). I spend HOURS AND HOURS on my TT rig and I still feel a bit wobbly on it if it is windy, uneven road surface etc. I'm no Vincenzo Nibali for handling but I am still very confident in my abilities. Just saying be careful; learn to walk before you run (or whatever that old saying is).
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Re: Advice for beginner for performance, confidence etc.

Postby DoubleSpeeded » Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:35 pm

Grim wrote:"Firstly, Thats a pretty incorrect comment on Aust standards there my friend... as Duck has mentioned also: "

I think you should actually read my comments that you NEED to have an AU Standards sticker for riding unless you are competing in sanctioned races which allows for International Standards like CPSC for WTC closed circuit.

"Australia actually has a strict code of standards on consumer products as well as Strict code of conduct in goods and service supplied by servicemen. even Motor Vehicles need to be complied and certified to be sold on the Australian market"

Ah....no faecal matter, btw, nice helmet, good to see another choice in the very small Aero Helmet market in AU even for the exhorbident price.

"So your saying. You see a guy wearing a TT helmet... you immediately think "oh hes a tosser!"? And i suppose you think everyone else thinks antisocially like you too?
"
If I can again point out that I did prefix the sentence with (joke) with the expectation that that will be the general attitude you will get from most roadies out there IF you choose to go on your weekend rides in full aero gear, so thinking otherwise is missing the point.

"And say if a guy wearing a TT helmet had an accident or in trouble you wont assist because you branded him a "tosser"? Nice one, good to know that i am a Tosser to you... ill make sure ill introduce myself as Tosser to you next time if it makes you happier"

"i find road bike riders are the most arrogant (no offence intended to anyone guys).. "

You're taking the aero defensive position a tad too hard here as no one is suggesting we burn aero witches at the stake, just expect a bit of attitude from roadies which is all par for course if you're in full aero getup on a bike track and you would have experienced this already so instead of getting hung up about it, take the feedback for what it is given you asked for it (feedback) in your original post.

If you're really serious about increasing your TT performance, you should be concentrating on targeted training to increasing your V02 max and FTP and not getting hung up about how aero slippery you can be on a social ride and to clear any confusion, this statement is not meant as a negative on you but just what needs to be done to be a better TT'er. You might be surprised that the best TT'ers don't actually spend a lot of time on their TT bikes other than dialling in their positions in the wind tunnel, Triathletes are the ones who tend to spend exclusive time and you don't sound much like a Triathlete. All things aside, lets step back from the accusations and "trolling" category and get back to how you can be better at the discipline of TT, repeatable, repetitive and hard training, training and btw.....training.



firstly, obviously that was an australian Standards Sticker that i posted to show you.

yes it is a nice helmet, yes when it was first released it was just under $500 .. (i have paid for Motorcycle helmets for less than that ). Not a big market at all but sold out at several places and Kask Australia are slow in importing.

Take a step back? obviously my first post at the start i was fairly new, i had the S@#$s...But my perception since then and attitude has changed.
If there is stigma or attitude... the way i see it...... i am entitled to wear/ride what i want. whether it be an Aero Helmet or a Pot-Plant on my head... if they object,... they can literally stick-it!

And Since then, i have improved dramatically. So yeh, dont worry...forget about my original post...im over it.

believe me, im not an old forum member but i have experienced enough to see who is sincere to help, who are the do-gooders and ones that are there to scrutinize you.
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Re: Advice for beginner for performance, confidence etc.

Postby DoubleSpeeded » Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:40 pm

thearthurdog wrote:The other thing I would advise is becoming extremely proficient in riding a bicycle before you start riding really fast on a decked out TT rig on public roads / paths. The aero wheels, aero bars, disc (?) all make the bike far more difficult to manage than a normal road bike. I would really be spending a lot of quality time on the roadie as a new (I assume you still consider yourself a newer rider?). I spend HOURS AND HOURS on my TT rig and I still feel a bit wobbly on it if it is windy, uneven road surface etc. I'm no Vincenzo Nibali for handling but I am still very confident in my abilities. Just saying be careful; learn to walk before you run (or whatever that old saying is).



i dont ever find handling, a problem.


to me, the disc is never that bad in the wind... i dunno how much you weigh but at now 84kg... ive never been pushed around.


The current FFWD carbon disc with aluminium rim is slightly heavy than usual disc.

The only thing that combined with large Carbon Crank is slightly hard to push... but like i said... ive improved since then and doesnt bother me anymore.
im more proficient with the gearing which helps.

and will be putting the Zipp Super 9 clincher disc soon which is lighter and would be more efficient.
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Re: Advice for beginner for performance, confidence etc.

Postby DoubleSpeeded » Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:48 pm

thearthurdog wrote:Just want to politely disagree with a couple of comments about training on the TT bike. If you want to learn to TT well, you MUST train a LOT on your TT bike. The main reason is that there will always (almost always) be a gap in the amount of watts you produce on a TT bike vs a roadie. It varies from person to person. This is a result of the more aero position on the TT rig. We use these positions of course, because the aero gains wipe out the lost watts. Blunt example of: 10 watts lost in power + 25 watts gained in aero = 15 watts gain. The more time you spend on your TT bike the more efficient you will become and the power 'gap' will be reduced.


i agree

riding in the aero position is more difficult and demanding in comparison to the upright position of a MTB or road bike.

Every time i jump back on the TT bike it feels like a slight shock to the system.
To me it feels more like, doing weights on the Machines... and then jump on the free-weights... similar work out... but yet very different feel.
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Re: Advice for beginner for performance, confidence etc.

Postby vander » Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:54 pm

thearthurdog wrote:Just want to politely disagree with a couple of comments about training on the TT bike. If you want to learn to TT well, you MUST train a LOT on your TT bike. The main reason is that there will always (almost always) be a gap in the amount of watts you produce on a TT bike vs a roadie. It varies from person to person. This is a result of the more aero position on the TT rig. We use these positions of course, because the aero gains wipe out the lost watts. Blunt example of: 10 watts lost in power + 25 watts gained in aero = 15 watts gain. The more time you spend on your TT bike the more efficient you will become and the power 'gap' will be reduced.


Spend time on the TT bike fine, but on the trainer and on roads where there is little danger, not on bike paths or your everyday commute.
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Re: Advice for beginner for performance, confidence etc.

Postby twizzle » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:15 pm

I commute on mine... But it took a long, long time to get confident in traffic. Balance is a big part, dealing with turbulence from large vehicles is the major hassle. Excessive speed is also a hassle, even with a backpack to slow me down.


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Re: Advice for beginner for performance, confidence etc.

Postby thearthurdog » Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:34 am

DoubleSpeeded wrote:i dont ever find handling, a problem.


to me, the disc is never that bad in the wind... i dunno how much you weigh but at now 84kg... ive never been pushed around.


The current FFWD carbon disc with aluminium rim is slightly heavy than usual disc.

The only thing that combined with large Carbon Crank is slightly hard to push... but like i said... ive improved since then and doesnt bother me anymore.
im more proficient with the gearing which helps.

and will be putting the Zipp Super 9 clincher disc soon which is lighter and would be more efficient.


Respectfully, if you have not been pushed around with a disc on, you are either not moving along quick enough, or are every lucky and train in an area without decent wind, or both, I weigh 86kg.
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Re: Advice for beginner for performance, confidence etc.

Postby thearthurdog » Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:36 am

vander wrote:
Spend time on the TT bike fine, but on the trainer and on roads where there is little danger, not on bike paths or your everyday commute.

Yup. That is what I meant in my second post :)
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Re: Advice for beginner for performance, confidence etc.

Postby DoubleSpeeded » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:11 am

thearthurdog wrote:
DoubleSpeeded wrote:i dont ever find handling, a problem.


to me, the disc is never that bad in the wind... i dunno how much you weigh but at now 84kg... ive never been pushed around.


The current FFWD carbon disc with aluminium rim is slightly heavy than usual disc.

The only thing that combined with large Carbon Crank is slightly hard to push... but like i said... ive improved since then and doesnt bother me anymore.
im more proficient with the gearing which helps.

and will be putting the Zipp Super 9 clincher disc soon which is lighter and would be more efficient.


Respectfully, if you have not been pushed around with a disc on, you are either not moving along quick enough, or are every lucky and train in an area without decent wind, or both, I weigh 86kg.


Well it's never recommended to train in an area with gale winds.

How fast are you meant to go to feel the way you are then?


It is said that a disc on the rear can add stability, and I believe that... I've felt less push around on the rear disc at 58km/hr than on a 66mm carbon clincher rear. It's the front that causes problems.
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Re: Advice for beginner for performance, confidence etc.

Postby dalai47 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:47 am

@DS - quite a few knowledgeable people have provided some valuable responses answering your questions. Anytime someone has posted a comment that goes against what you have read you reply usually in an agressive manner. Not helping your cause wanting information...

Enjoy your riding, but like thearthurdog I am also done.
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Re: Advice for beginner for performance, confidence etc.

Postby Mulger bill » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:39 pm

Does anybody know how often I visit the time trial board?

NEVER. Interesting discipline to spectate but just not my thing.

Still, I'm here now because the report box was full :roll: Apparently Mikesbytes polite request to play nice fell on few deaf ears.

The chainsaw has been brought out, I hope in such a way as to keep the wood but remove the bark. Apologies if I've cut too much or not enough but life's like that sometimes.

I'm gonna lock this thread for a few days to give people the time to think about their posts, something everyone should do prior to hitting the submit button in any thread.

Once I reopen the thread, be warned. If I have to come here again, the chainsaw will be waved randomly at people as well as posts.

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