Commuting Etiquette

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Re: Commuting Etiquette

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:15 pm

goneriding wrote:Hey Mike, do you do this upon request:)? I need someone to draft on my early morning outings!


Shame I'm riding towards Stathfield and your riding away from it
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Re: Commuting Etiquette

Postby BrisVegas » Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:50 pm

bear in mind I'm a newbie and unfit... I had a guy tucked in behind me yesterday on the way home for about 20 minutes. At the end of a long hill I started to run out of puff and "bonked" I guess as I had to drop it back to a granny gear to keep going. The cheeky bugger sang out to me "aww what are you slowing down for?!?!?". FFS, feel free to overtake at any time. He was obviously a long time commuter who was just being lazy.
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Re: Commuting Etiquette

Postby jules21 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:07 pm

Aushiker wrote: I have the opposite problem ... knobs on MTB who think they can out ride me on a roadie and who sprint past and then bonk ... give it a break guys :) :mrgreen:

well that's just as bad! for the record, i ride at my own pace and if i come up behind someone, i reason that i'm going faster than them and overtake. unfortunately this does not allow me to account for those who were just cruising along but keeping reserve energy for those types of situations, when they suddenly burst into life :)

i don't mind being re-overtaken either, if they maintain their speed. it's only when they slow back down that it annoys me - it's like "i'm controlling the speed around here!".
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Re: Commuting Etiquette

Postby tallywhacker » Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:31 pm

this is something that has confused me everytime someone brings this discussion up. If I am riding to or from work (on my own) I am still going to be riding the same distance into the same wind (it always seems that I am) at pretty much the same speed and effort if someone sits on my wheel or not. So what difference does it make or is there some voodoo aerodynamic science that makes me down ?
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Re: Commuting Etiquette

Postby trailgumby » Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:43 pm

For me, I just hate being tailgated in a traffic situation - car OR bike. :evil:

I want to be able to use my brakes as and when I need without having to worry about some tosser taking out my rear wheel, brake or derailleur.

Drafting up hills or into headwinds on quiet streets or paths with good sight lines: no problem, I'm open to take it in turns and share the load if you talk to me. Downhills or when there are cars about: too risky. You'll cop a mouthful over the quality of your judgement. Or maybe make that a nose full. :lol:
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Re: Commuting Etiquette

Postby zero » Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:00 pm

tallywhacker wrote:this is something that has confused me everytime someone brings this discussion up. If I am riding to or from work (on my own) I am still going to be riding the same distance into the same wind (it always seems that I am) at pretty much the same speed and effort if someone sits on my wheel or not. So what difference does it make or is there some voodoo aerodynamic science that makes me down ?


I like to be able to cover my brakes at intersections without being tailended. I also can outbrake road bicycles, particularly in the wet. Wheelsucks are also notorious pain in the ass when trying to pass any sort of obstacle. Not uncommon for them to box you in.
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Re: Commuting Etiquette

Postby mikesbytes » Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:35 pm

tallywhacker wrote:this is something that has confused me everytime someone brings this discussion up. If I am riding to or from work (on my own) I am still going to be riding the same distance into the same wind (it always seems that I am) at pretty much the same speed and effort if someone sits on my wheel or not. So what difference does it make or is there some voodoo aerodynamic science that makes me down ?


A quicker experienced rider such as yourself will most the time only have more experienced riders sucking your wheel, so there is little risk of being taken out from behind, even if they were to hit you, your unlikely to be taken out. Where other riders don't have your abilities so they are more concerned about wheel suckers.

The Data I have seen shows that the front rider gains a 2% advantage having another rider follow them.
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Re: Commuting Etiquette

Postby AUbicycles » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:36 am

I am doing a bit more commuting nowdays on the bike and when I get the chance to draft, I usually hang pretty far back - perhaps some feel annoyed or distracted, though it is for my safety - not knowing how skillful they are. Usually at the next lights I loose them, either they go through the red lights (while I wait) or I can accelerate quickly and loose them.
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Re: Commuting Etiquette

Postby Mat_H » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:15 pm

I am another who HATES people drafting me. When I ride into work at 6am in the pitch dark there is this idiot who will ride right up behind cyclists...I mean literally a few inches from the back wheel and draft. (Often I am the only cyclist in the area so he targets me) He has a very,very bright headlight which is disconcerting too. There is a very, very good reason why almost all non-cyclists hate cyclists and that is the way most cyclists behave...I am the first to admit the percentage of cyclists that are total bastards is astounding and far exceeds the percentage of drivers. This guy is not the only one who does it there are many..he is just the latest one. I mean cyclists are the first ones to point out when car drivers break any law yet they arrogantly and blissfully break every law themselves. Drivers will never respect cyclists the way cyclists behave at the moment and nor should they. I drive a lot and I cycle a lot so I see it from both sides and I would say most aggression againt cyclists is fully warranted.

I have had words to that guy in the morning and he is on his last notice. One more time and I will flog him. If he is on these forums and he may well be as he is all kitted up like a semi pro heed my advice mate. If you are riding with friends and you know they dont mind being drafted then fine go for it. But if you do that to a stranger and keep doing it after the stranger has asked you not to then you had better be with HBF.
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Re: Commuting Etiquette

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:33 pm

Hey Mat, when he gets on your wheel, ride slower and slower and slower until he is forced to overtake you and then suck his wheel :twisted: :wink:
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Re: Commuting Etiquette

Postby Zynster » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:44 pm

A bicycle on the road is subject to the Australian road rules, which includes a minimum safe following distance of 2 seconds. There is a good reason for this law as you need space to safely stop if something unexpected happens. In a race it's called drafting, but on the road it's called tailgating.
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Re: Commuting Etiquette

Postby Aushiker » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:52 pm

Zynster wrote:A bicycle on the road is subject to the Australian road rules, which includes a minimum safe following distance of 2 seconds.


Hi

Safe distance of two seconds? Where does it say that in your state road rules? No mention of this in the WA Road Traffic Code 2000 as amended. The WA Road Traffic Code does however say in section 109:

Keeping a safe distance behind vehicles Except when overtaking and passing, the driver of any vehicle shall, when following another vehicle, keep such distance
behind it as will enable the driver to stop the vehicle in an emergency with safety, and without running into the vehicle in front of him or her.


Hence the only requirement is to maintain a safe emergency stopping distance.

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Re: Commuting Etiquette

Postby Zynster » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:56 pm

So what is the definition of a "safe distance"? I was taught 2 seconds by driving instructors.
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Re: Commuting Etiquette

Postby mianos » Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:05 pm

Zynster wrote:So what is the definition of a "safe distance"? I was taught 2 seconds by driving instructors.

How long is a bit of string? I was taught 3 seconds in NSW. I still always count it out when I am on a highway but, in NSW, the F*w* drivers often pull into the 3 second space.
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Re: Commuting Etiquette

Postby hannos » Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:16 pm

I was taught one car length per 10km/h.
I have heard it's supposed to be 3 seconds as well.
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Re: Commuting Etiquette

Postby Max » Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:17 pm

Queensland road rules, page 26 (published July 2008, downloaded 16/07/2009, they might've changed since then) wrote:following vehicles—in good conditions, travel at least two seconds behind the vehicle in front of you. Double this gap in poor conditions—see Safe following distance, page 134


Queensland road rules, page 134 (published July 2008, downloaded 16/07/2009, they might've changed since then) wrote:Stopping
Safe following distance
If you drive too close to the vehicle in front of you, what will you do if they brake suddenly? You are likely to crash. Keep far enough back so that you can stop in time. How far should you travel behind? A car should drive at least two seconds behind the vehicle in front in ideal conditions.
A heavy vehicle should drive at least four seconds behind the vehicle in front.
A vehicle towing a trailer or caravan should allow two seconds, plus one second for each 3 m of trailer.
Double this following distance in poor conditions.
Use the time-lapse method to keep a safe distance behind the vehicle in front.

Time-lapse method
1. Pick a mark on the road or an object close to the left-hand side of the road, such as a power or light pole.
2. When the rear of the vehicle ahead passes the object, count ‘one thousand one, one thousand two’ (this takes about two seconds). If the conditions are bad, count ‘one thousand one, one thousand two, one thousand three, one thousand four’ (this takes about four seconds).
3. If the front of your vehicle passes the object before you finish counting, you are too close, so drop back.


Edit: This is an excerpt from "Your keys to driving in Queensland", which I admit is not the road rules per se. However, it is a guide published by Queensland Transport, and is "an interpretation of the rules applying to road use in Queensland. For the complete picture of the Queensland road rules, visit the Office of the Queensland Parliamentary Counsel website at www.legislation.qld.gov.au or purchase a copy of the Transport Operations (Road Use Management–Road Rules) Regulation 1999 from The Government Bookshop by calling 07 3883 8700 or 1800 801 123 (if you live outside Brisbane)."

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Re: Commuting Etiquette

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:38 pm

That's how I've been doing it for years, courtesy of Gregorys Basic and advanced driver handbook. Not rocket surgery.

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Re: Commuting Etiquette

Postby Aushiker » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:41 pm

Zynster wrote:So what is the definition of a "safe distance"? I was taught 2 seconds by driving instructors.


Hi

The WA Road Code makes it clear what a safe distance is ... it states:

Except when overtaking and passing, the driver of any vehicle shall, when following another vehicle, keep such distance behind it as will enable the driver to stop the vehicle in an emergency with safety, and without running into the vehicle in front of him or her.


So a safe distance is sufficient to avoid hitting the vehicle in front in an emergency. That may be two seconds, that maybe not. The point being counting out two seconds or four seconds or whatever, counts for zilch if you hit the vehicle in front in an emergency stop. Hitting the vehicle means you where not maintaining a safe distance, i.e., given your reaction times, driving conditions etc.

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Re: Commuting Etiquette

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:51 pm

Two seconds is a speed dependant distance and a lot easier to calculate than the car length per 10km/h. Stating it directly in the legislation is a lot more sensible.
The WA way is waaaaay too subjective and open to interpretation IMO.

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Re: Commuting Etiquette

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:53 pm

Oops. Insert "In good conditions" to the appropriate place in the above post.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Commuting Etiquette

Postby simonn » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:59 pm

Mulger bill wrote:Two seconds is a speed dependant distance and a lot easier to calculate than the car length per 10km/h. Stating it directly in the legislation is a lot more sensible.
The WA way is waaaaay too subjective and open to interpretation IMO.


Your comparing apples and oranges.

I am fairly certain that the QLD definition of safe stopping distance would be the same as WA.

The WA definition is not subjective, it is in fact binary i.e. yes or no, true or false, you hit the vehicle in front or you did not.

The 2 second rule is a tip on how to keep a safe distance, but even if you are 2 seconds behind and crashed into the vehicle in front you are still in the wrong.
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Re: Commuting Etiquette

Postby Aushiker » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:13 pm

simonn wrote:The WA definition is not subjective, it is in fact binary i.e. yes or no, true or false, you hit the vehicle in front or you did not.

The 2 second rule is a tip on how to keep a safe distance, but even if you are 2 seconds behind and crashed into the vehicle in front you are still in the wrong.


Hi

That is the way I read it too. The two seconds (I was taught three seconds in a defensive driving course) is a guide only; not an excuse if one hits the vehicle in front. If one hits the vehicle in front then it is a simple matter ... you where not keeping a safe distance and hence you broke the law.

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Re: Commuting Etiquette

Postby Zynster » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:00 am

It's a given that if you hit the vehicle in front you are in the wrong. No one would argue that. I think we can all agree that any distance that involves a drafting benefit would not be classed as a safe distance.
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Re: Commuting Etiquette

Postby trailgumby » Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:43 pm

I agree the above statements. If you hit the guy in front, prima facie you are at fault for failing to keep a safe distance. There are defences (eg, non-working brake lights, for powered vehicles) but it will turn on the facts.

What is a safe gap for some vehicles will be totally inadequate for another. An example would be a fully laden semi-trailer. They take ages to pull up. The limit is not the power of their brakes, but the limit of their tyres' adhesion. I see idiots cut in front of them all the time assuming the truck can stop in a couple of car lengths like their front-wheel-drive lunchbox.

If ever you get abused by a truckie for overtaking them in traffic into what looks like plenty of room to you, this will be why. :evil: And it won't be they who are found at fault if they turn you into road pizza.

So use your brains and allow plenty of room to stop - more if it's wet. And don't cut into others' braking buffer just because you can.
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Re: Commuting Etiquette

Postby AUbicycles » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:36 pm

word!



Your advice seems to fit into the 3C's, common sense, courtesy and care.
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