Commuter Cup Racing

jasonc
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Re: Commuter Cup Racing

Postby jasonc » Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:26 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Finally I'm flying down Hunter st and realisation bounces in... do the brakes work in the wet? how much grip do Kmart style knoblies provide in the wet? I kill the speed. Fortunately the brakes do work and the under inflated tyres provided adequate grip.
haha - you big time have white line fever

WestCoastEagle
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Re: Commuter Cup Racing

Postby WestCoastEagle » Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:54 pm

Hi all,

Can we discuss the etiquette around CCR?

Having been commuting for 6 months or so (and with a new bike), I'm finding myself much, much faster. Quite often I'll turn around and there will be a number of cyclists behind me drafting - I have no issues with this at all and it's a bit of an ego boost for me. I even like backing off a bit so some of the oldies can catch up so I can give them a tow.

However, I'm also now able to keep up (but not pass) some pretty quick guys. For example, last week I was able to manage a 38km/h average from the narrows to Canning bridge behind a guy who was really quick (and is pretty well known in Perth - I recognised him on Strava). There's no way I could manage this pace myself so passing to return the favour is out of the question. I stay at least a bike length back at this speed and make sure I have both hands within reach of the brakes. But at this speed, people really do not like it when you're behind them. I get looks around, big bursts of speed (which I can usually match) and then head shaking.

Should I just back off and not bother trying to keep up? I'm new to all this so want make sure I'm not breaking any unwritten rules.

jasonc
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Re: Commuter Cup Racing

Postby jasonc » Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:11 pm

you could always ask if they mind you sitting in

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P!N20
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Re: Commuter Cup Racing

Postby P!N20 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:21 pm

WestCoastEagle wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:54 pm
Should I just back off and not bother trying to keep up? I'm new to all this so want make sure I'm not breaking any unwritten rules.

It's pretty poor form really. Some cyclists don't mind, others are likely to abuse you or in extreme circumstances try to make you crash. If you must do it (and I guess we all have at one time or another) keep a bit of distance and as mentioned above - might be nice to signal your intentions. (Be prepared for a 'f*** off' though.)

If you want to test yourself it might be best to join in on a weekend bunch ride.

WestCoastEagle
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Re: Commuter Cup Racing

Postby WestCoastEagle » Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:26 pm

P!N20 wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:21 pm
WestCoastEagle wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:54 pm
Should I just back off and not bother trying to keep up? I'm new to all this so want make sure I'm not breaking any unwritten rules.

It's pretty poor form really. Some cyclists don't mind, others are likely to abuse you or in extreme circumstances try to make you crash. If you must do it (and I guess we all have at one time or another) keep a bit of distance and as mentioned above - might be nice to signal your intentions. (Be prepared for a 'f*** off' though.)

If you want to test yourself it might be best to join in on a weekend bunch ride.
All good, I won't do it any more. But then what is commuter cup racing if you're not allowed to do it?

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P!N20
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Re: Commuter Cup Racing

Postby P!N20 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:35 pm

WestCoastEagle wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:26 pm
But then what is commuter cup racing if you're not allowed to do it?

Well that was always the joke; it's not a race and shouldn't be.

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bychosis
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Re: Commuter Cup Racing

Postby bychosis » Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:28 pm

P!N20 wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:35 pm
WestCoastEagle wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:26 pm
But then what is commuter cup racing if you're not allowed to do it?

Well that was always the joke; it's not a race and shouldn't be.
It’s not a race so drafting is out, but chasing and overtaking is definitely on. Just be sure you can make it stick and keep in front - preferably moving away.
bychosis (bahy-koh-sis): A mental disorder of delusions indicating impaired contact with a reality of no bicycles.

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Comedian
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Re: Commuter Cup Racing

Postby Comedian » Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:44 pm

Yup.. I think drafting someone on the commute is at least rude.. and possibly dangerous. Unless both parties agree.

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Re: Commuter Cup Racing

Postby WestCoastEagle » Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:49 pm

Comedian wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:44 pm
Yup.. I think drafting someone on the commute is at least rude.. and possibly dangerous. Unless both parties agree.
Dangerous, maybe at higher speeds. Rude? I don't understand why. As I mentioned, it happens to me regularly. Far, far more than i do it to others. I often turn around and I've got a tail of 3 or 4 people behind me. I've never, ever thought it rude - I was going to be riding and copping the wind anyway. Personally don't see the issue when it happens to me if people leave a reasonable amount of space (ie: at least 1 or 2 bike lengths). If you're crossing wheels then for sure its dicy, but how far back do you have to be not to be considered rude?

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P!N20
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Re: Commuter Cup Racing

Postby P!N20 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:21 pm

WestCoastEagle wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:49 pm
Rude? I don't understand why.

Because drafting is a two+ player game.

Firstly, if you draft someone for a few k's you should return the favour or 'pull a turn'.

Secondly, it's the responsibility of the lead rider to not stop suddenly or warn of potential hazards. If you latch on to someone's wheel there's a good chance they won't know you're there and potentially put you or themselves in harm's way.

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Comedian
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Re: Commuter Cup Racing

Postby Comedian » Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:36 pm

WestCoastEagle wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:49 pm
Comedian wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:44 pm
Yup.. I think drafting someone on the commute is at least rude.. and possibly dangerous. Unless both parties agree.
Dangerous, maybe at higher speeds. Rude? I don't understand why. As I mentioned, it happens to me regularly. Far, far more than i do it to others. I often turn around and I've got a tail of 3 or 4 people behind me. I've never, ever thought it rude - I was going to be riding and copping the wind anyway. Personally don't see the issue when it happens to me if people leave a reasonable amount of space (ie: at least 1 or 2 bike lengths). If you're crossing wheels then for sure its dicy, but how far back do you have to be not to be considered rude?
Well..regards safety.. if you are riding in a group and you are on the front you know that you are responsible for the people behind. Call anything important and don't jump on the brakes. However if you are riding solo you've got no such obligation. If you see something and you want to stop you stop. If you want to grab a drink you stop. The thing is if someone runs into you from behind then they could hurt you or your bike.. or themselves and no one wants that. I offer this for a bit of hilarity as it happened to me. The guy was terribly nice. I knew there was someone behind but I didn't know how close.. and I felt I had to give way to the rider coming from my right. Next thing.. BOOM.



I know several people that when commuting/riding they just want to do their own thing, and it annoys them if someone "sits on". It annoys me a little as I don't want to be responsible for people behind. I'll often wave people through. Having said that in general my commute isn't really conducive, but I can see how it could be a big thing if you have conducive terrain.

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g-boaf
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Re: Commuter Cup Racing

Postby g-boaf » Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:29 pm

Comedian wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:36 pm
I know several people that when commuting/riding they just want to do their own thing, and it annoys them if someone "sits on". It annoys me a little as I don't want to be responsible for people behind. I'll often wave people through. Having said that in general my commute isn't really conducive, but I can see how it could be a big thing if you have conducive terrain.
Absolutely right. Sometimes you just want to ride at your speed and inevitably if your speed is quick enough then someone will latch on, even though you've got a backpack on and clearly you are in commuter mode.

I've had it sometimes where I've picked up more speed (on a fast/wide cycleway) to an uncomfortable level and dropped the following person or I'll just slow right down to 20km/h and ride very far to the left, that usually gets the message across.

When the covid restrictions started early this year every family was out getting "exercise" so people running about all over the place, kids riding about with dad wobbling all over the path while telling his kids how to ride. :roll: With such chaos, it's enough avoiding all of those people going everywhere, let alone having someone following you from behind really, really closely. One day I had to warn a couple of riders to drop back a bit for safety.

I also make a habit of looking behind fairly often just to see if anyone is there. Some of the kids, despite being told off by their parents are pretty decent riders and are doing the right thing so I always encourage them, tell them they are riding well, etc.

WestCoastEagle
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Re: Commuter Cup Racing

Postby WestCoastEagle » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:43 pm

Happened to me again on the way home. Passed a guy who immediately lifted his pace to keep up. I must be missing something (probably the fact that I haven’t crashed and had someone ram me from behind as a result), but it was fine. I kept my pace, he got a tow, stayed 5-10m behind and everyone was happy.

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nickobec
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Re: Commuter Cup Racing

Postby nickobec » Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:22 pm

WestCoastEagle wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:54 pm
Can we discuss the etiquette around CCR?
There is none, it is racing, you either blow pass another rider straight away, or catch your breath in their draft then attack.

Etiquette on the commute when not involved in CCR is another matter. Yes you should ask permission to draft, but it is not always possible.

My view does change depending on which direction like WestCoastEagle my commute is along the freeway PSP south of Perth.

In the morning depending on my training plan it is either intervals, so I don't want to draft and anybody drafting me does at their own risk. On endurance days, I will ride along side other riders for a chat, will not draft and if you are drafting me, I will swing out and have a quick chat, with why? being the obvious question, I am not that fast.

On the way home into the Freo Doctor, for non WA residents the daily (well 90%+ chance) SSW-SW 20kph or more, often gusting to 40kph block headwind for me. I will eek out any advantage, draft anybody stronger than me and expect exactly the same from other riders. We have a common foe the wind and we all need any help we can get. I don't expect to get asked, and rarely get the chance to ask, though will when possible.

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Re: Commuter Cup Racing

Postby polishbiker » Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:06 am

Ok, looks like this is a good thread to get some ideas.

I live in Perth and i ride to and from work 5 days a week all year round.

My ride is generally at good pace and i normally overtake most cyclists i see in front of me.

Usually when i pass a rider in front of me i check whether he/she glued themselves to me after a while, when they do i am yet to determine the best way to tell them that i do not want them to use me as a charity wind shield.

If i pass a rider to me it means he is slower, path is long and wide so i do not understand why all the sudden some riders speed up so they can use less energy and ride faster than they normally do, thanks to me being their wind breaker.

Sometimes i have to stop pedalling and i just roll so they can overtake me but because i ride faster than them i overtake them within the next 5 minutes and they glue themselves to me again. sometimes i have to stop completely which really shouldnt be required.

i do not draft people ever, if i see a strong rider i stay 20+ meters behind them and keep at their pace if i know i cannot go faster. to me this is a good and fair practice.

Lately if i see a wheel sucker behind me i simply 'brake check' them to perhaps get them to understand i do not want them to ride dangerously close to me, some get it, some dont.

is there a universal and polite way to tell the guy riding 10cm behind me at speed to bugger off?

I am really considering putting a laminated note on my backpack to stop some riders from stalking me while i enjoy my commute but should i really need to get to such extreme steps??

I think drafting people you do not know at high speed is dangerous and such people lack imagination.
Do such people also tail gate people while driving on freeways at 100km/h? Probably not so why do they think its OK to do it while riding?
Last edited by polishbiker on Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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P!N20
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Re: Commuter Cup Racing

Postby P!N20 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:34 am

polishbiker wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:06 am
is there a universal and polite way to tell the guy riding 10cm behind me at speed to bugger off?

Drop them?

How about "excuse me sir/madam, would you kindly refrain from drafting me as in the event I need to brake quickly I would prefer you didn't end up as my new saddle bag."

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Re: Commuter Cup Racing

Postby Cyclophiliac » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:23 pm

P!N20 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:34 am
polishbiker wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:06 am
is there a universal and polite way to tell the guy riding 10cm behind me at speed to bugger off?

Drop them?

How about "excuse me sir/madam, would you kindly refrain from drafting me as in the event I need to brake quickly I would prefer you didn't end up as my new saddle bag."
Except I'd swap the phrase "saddle bag" for "suppository" ;) My typical response in these situations, being a man of few words, is just to slow down until they get the hint.

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Re: Commuter Cup Racing

Postby P!N20 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:10 pm

Cyclophiliac wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:23 pm
Except I'd swap the phrase "saddle bag" for "suppository" ;)

I need to get you to write my jokes.

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Re: Commuter Cup Racing

Postby nickobec » Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:42 pm

polishbiker wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:06 am
I think drafting people you do not know at high speed is dangerous and such people lack imagination.
Do such people also tail gate people while driving on freeways at 100km/h? Probably not so why do they think its OK to do it while riding?
You definitely have not driven Perth freeways at peak hour (even if it is not 100 kmh).

The drafting culture in Perth commuters, well those south of the river is probably due to riding into the Freo Doctor most evenings. The willingness to sit on somebody else wheel will get you home 5 or 10 minutes earlier (important if you have young kids) and not completely knackered .

I have been commuting on the PSP south of the river for over 12 years now and once I go strong enough to be drafted it was a little scary at first, but then after starting to race and ride in bunches you realise:
1: This risk is with the rider drafting, it their front wheel touches your back wheel, they are likely to hit the deck as their front wheel locks and they go over the handlebars. The worst that happens to you is your rear wheel locks momentary and skips, I have had this happen a few times racing, never an issue. It is the rider drafting and the riders behind them at risk.
2: it has aerodynamic benefit (small but still a benefit) for the rider being drafted
3: It is a charitable thing to do, helping out other people at no cost to you. (and the young kids comment above, was from a rider who drafted me).

If you don't want to be drafted:
1. Approaching another rider, swing as far right as possible (ie into the oncoming lane if safe) and give it an extra kick as you pass them. Making it as hard as possible for them to jump on your wheel.
2. If they do start drafting you, swing to the right of your lane, motion for them to come alongside and tell them "You do not want to be drafted" More colourful language is optional.

Though I do like the idea of stencil on your backpack or backpack cover "No wheelsucking"

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Re: Commuter Cup Racing

Postby polishbiker » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:44 pm

Thanks for the input.

Having a chat with a rider behind while riding at 30km/h+ is not something i would want to do for safety reasons.

I started practicing this idea and its working quite well actually, thanks for that : )
"If you don't want to be drafted:
1. Approaching another rider, swing as far right as possible (ie into the oncoming lane if safe) and give it an extra kick as you pass them. Making it as hard as possible for them to jump on your wheel."

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Re: Commuter Cup Racing

Postby Mububban » Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:07 pm

I've taken to riding my dual sus MTB on footpaths when commuting more than my roadie. I was on one side of the road, and spotted a guy on a road bike on the other side, both of us going in the same direction. So I had to tuck down low and see if I could catch and overtake him - which I managed :P
When you are driving your car, you are not stuck IN traffic - you ARE the traffic!!!

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Re: Commuter Cup Racing

Postby warthog1 » Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:25 pm

polishbiker wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:06 am


is there a universal and polite way to tell the guy riding 10cm behind me at speed to bugger off?

Not polite, but if they wont get the hint, snot rockets will likely help.
Dogs are the best people :wink:

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Comedian
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Re: Commuter Cup Racing

Postby Comedian » Tue Feb 01, 2022 5:53 pm

polishbiker wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:06 am

is there a universal and polite way to tell the guy riding 10cm behind me at speed to bugger off?
Two thoughts on this.

1. See through knicks. Might work might attract more attention. :shock:
2. Just indicate left and slow for a moment. Once the wheel sucker is past carry on your trip.

PS I really do suggest not brake checking anyone. Not cool.

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Mububban
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Re: Commuter Cup Racing

Postby Mububban » Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:30 pm

polishbiker wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:06 am
Lately if i see a wheel sucker behind me i simply 'brake check' them to perhaps get them to understand i do not want them to ride dangerously close to me, some get it, some dont.

is there a universal and polite way to tell the guy riding 10cm behind me at speed to bugger off?

I am really considering putting a laminated note on my backpack to stop some riders from stalking me while i enjoy my commute but should i really need to get to such extreme steps??

I think drafting people you do not know at high speed is dangerous and such people lack imagination.

Please don't brake check people, it really ups the chances of a crash.

What about a hand wave, like you're shooing a fly off your bum? If I was following and I saw that signal, I'd interpret that as a clear "back off" request.

A note on the backpack might help, and shouldn't slow you down any, so sure, why not?

As a former cycle path commuter, who sometimes drafted and took turns being the wind break, I personally assume that anyone who A) chooses to commute by bike, 2) is capable of doing a certain speed, d) is riding a drop bar road bike, quite possibly knows how to ride in a group. So personally I never minded someone drafting, and if I hopped on someone's rear wheel, I'd also try and take a turn in front.

But that was also informed by my commute being on a nice section with no real intersections or braking requirements until a major intersection that everyone had to stop for, so there were no reasons for unexpected braking etc.
When you are driving your car, you are not stuck IN traffic - you ARE the traffic!!!

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Re: Commuter Cup Racing

Postby Mr Purple » Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:14 pm

Interesting thread, I hadn't realised there was so much room for negotiating in 'commuter drafting etiquette'!

I train on bikeways and often pick up someone drafting when I've just passed them. Don't really care, to be honest. I'll hand signal for them. Though it does become a matter of pride to accelerate up the next hill until they explode.

I've had a couple of times when neither of us can really get ahead of the other though. There was one guy last year who just kept on accelerating behind me through a hilly, twisty section on a well travelled route (10,000+ per year). We took the two fastest times for the year through there just because neither of us would back off.

There have also been a couple of memorable moments when I thought someone was doing well at keeping up after I passed them, but it turned out I was just trying to outrun my own rear derailleur noise; they were long gone.

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