Rims: Alex EVO super comp vs HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brake

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Rims: Alex EVO super comp vs HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brake

Postby Drizt » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:50 pm

Hi All,

So we have decided to go a different path with my wifes commuter build and we have come down to the final few choices...

Usage:
Commuting with panniers
Weekend riding
Everything bike really.
Ridden in pretty hilly area's as well.

Wants:
Hydraulic disc brakes - my wife has always had hydro brakes and can't go back!

The proposed build:

Things that are locked in:
Frame: Giant TCX SLR frameset [Small]
Rack: Topeak rack for pannier usage [already has this on her current bike]
Group set: Shimano Ultegra Di2 [11 speed]
Brakes: Shimano R785 hydro disc brakes
Hubs: Chris King 11 speed disc hubs [Red]
Spokes: DT Swiss Comp spokes [Black]
Nipples: Matching red spoke nipples

Things still to be confirmed:
Rims: Alex EVO super comp <OR> HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brake
Tyres: I have some Marathon Supreme 28c's ready to go. Want something very reliable for my wife as this is her commuter, so open to suggestions.
Chain rings: 50/36 ???
Cassette: 11/28 ??

The alex rims come in 32h (and 36h if need be) and the HED rims only come in 28h. My LBS mechanic is 100kg+ guy and he uses the Alex rims mentioned here. He recommends them based on their low weight and his success with them. Happy to read anyone's thoughts on which rims they would recommend and why.

Alex rims -> http://alexrims.com/product_detail.asp? ... 20&pid=108

HED rims -> http://www.hedcycling.com/ardennes/plus ... -DiscBrake

Also, what chain rings / cassette would you recommend for my wife.
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by BNA » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:14 pm

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Re: Rims: Alex EVO super comp vs HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brak

Postby CXCommuter » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:14 pm

Anyhtinh HED you will be paying big $$$ for, if a normal rim is okay have a look at H+son archetypes (like the HEDs but half the price), Kinlin also make an XR19W which is light (kinlin are probably the best of the branded Taiwanese/Chinese companies making rims), I am building up a set of Archetypes if and when my hubs arrive and would look awesome with discs as the braking track would not wear.
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Re: Rims: Alex EVO super comp vs HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brak

Postby mitchy_ » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:24 pm

+1 to H PLUS SON Archetypes. if i was building alloy disc wheels, it would be with some of those.
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Re: Rims: Alex EVO super comp vs HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brak

Postby Drizt » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:40 pm

I have h plus son archetype on my bike :)

Had sort of discounted h plus sons as she wants to run 28c to 32c tyres. The archetype is designed primarily for 23c and 25c (which is what I run)

The hed and Alex rims I linked to are wider again than the archetype.

Would the Architype be fine with 28c or 32c tyres?
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Re: Rims: Alex EVO super comp vs HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brak

Postby Drizt » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:53 pm

Any comments on the Alex rims I linked to in the op?
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Re: Rims: Alex EVO super comp vs HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brak

Postby mitchy_ » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:39 pm

a 28 or 32c tyre will be fine on the archetype.

the alex rim is a mtb rim, thus the 32 and 36H. it's likely going to be much beefier than required.
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Re: Rims: Alex EVO super comp vs HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brak

Postby Drizt » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:40 pm

mitchy_ wrote:a 28 or 32c tyre will be fine on the archetype.

the alex rim is a mtb rim, thus the 32 and 36H. it's likely going to be much beefier than required.


By beefier, do you mean heavier? The rim itself is listed as being lighter than the other ones mentioned in this thread.
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Re: Rims: Alex EVO super comp vs HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brak

Postby mitchy_ » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:45 pm

Drizt wrote:
mitchy_ wrote:a 28 or 32c tyre will be fine on the archetype.

the alex rim is a mtb rim, thus the 32 and 36H. it's likely going to be much beefier than required.


By beefier, do you mean heavier? The rim itself is listed as being lighter than the other ones mentioned in this thread.


sorry, i read your initial post wrong... thought you said they were heavier.

i'd be going for 24/28 spoke however, unless your wife is a power house :lol:

i'll sell you my 28 spoke carbon disc wheelset. :D
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Re: Rims: Alex EVO super comp vs HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brak

Postby Drizt » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:46 pm

It's being used as a commuter with heavy panniers. I had even worried that the hed at 28h front and back wouldn't be enough.
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Re: Rims: Alex EVO super comp vs HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brak

Postby CXCommuter » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:57 pm

Drizt wrote:I have h plus son archetype on my bike :)

Had sort of discounted h plus sons as she wants to run 28c to 32c tyres. The archetype is designed primarily for 23c and 25c (which is what I run)

The hed and Alex rims I linked to are wider again than the archetype.

Would the Architype be fine with 28c or 32c tyres?


Would have no issues running 28/32 mm tyres on the Archtypes- I run 32mm cross tyres on narrower rims with no issues. The Archtypes are the pick of wheelbuilders in the wider rim category in multiple reviews I have seen, strong, straight, true and good looking.
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Re: Rims: Alex EVO super comp vs HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brak

Postby Drizt » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:59 pm

32h front and rear with the archetype for this application?

I went crazy on mine with WI T11 hubs and 32h front and 36h rear. No more broken spokes for me ;)
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Re: Rims: Alex EVO super comp vs HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brak

Postby Blakeylonger » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:59 pm

HED rims are excellent. Spend the money on the Belgium+ and you won't regret it. They do come in 32H btw. Don't cheap out on the wheels.

Otherwise:
American Classic do a nice 32H disc only, tubeless ready rim. All black, minimal branding, very light.
Pacenti SL32 are also a good tubeless ready shallow vee rim, machined or un. Black / silver.
Archetypes can't go tubeless, but they sure as showtime can run 28-32mm tyres. People used to use Open Pros with 29er tyres... Black/silver/hard ano
Stans Alpha 400 is a cheaper disc/tubeless option, but the QC on HED blows them away, and Pacenti are nicer too.

White Industries CX11 or CLD before CK hubs. WI also give you a centrelock option to run the awesome freeza rotors. Or just get shimano CX75 hubs, which, in 28H will match the HED rims you have access to and are typical high shimano quality. WI also offer 15mm thruaxle to suit the TCX.

Alloy nipples? In the hands of a quality wheelbuilder, sure, but the grams are barely worth it in the end for some matchiness that you can't see while riding. I'd rather use Supercomp spokes with brass nipples.

Crankset: Either a Shimano CX70 (36/46) or a Sugino OX601D (801 for shiny) (46/30). Both are BSA threaded options (Get an adaptor from press fit to BSA, the Praxis is considered the best. Shimano is cheaper and will probably shift better. Sugino has the multiBCD if you need that low gearing.
Don't need low-low? 6800 50-34.

Cassette: For 11sp, you'll need to wait and see what shakes out with Shimano MTB 11sp sprocket interspacing for the low-low gearing options. But with a 30T up front and the Shimano 11-32 6800 cassette, you may not need to go lower.

Marathons on a bike this nice? Consider some Schwalbe One tubed/tubeless in 28, or Compass barlow pass (tubed), Kojak (tubed) etc.

Likewise, Topeak rack? Get a nice lightweight Tubus vega/fly instead.

Commuter/everything bike without fenders? Fair weather rider? Chromoplastic P45s would be fine.

(Really, showtime is a word filter replacement, what happens when I type flying bicycles?)
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Re: Rims: Alex EVO super comp vs HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brak

Postby Drizt » Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:13 pm

The Belgium+ is not listed on the HED site ???

Why WI over CK? I have WI T11 hubs in my wheels by the way. Was thinking of going with CK for variety and the fact that the wheel builder prefers them over WI.

Topeak rack, she already owns it and uses on her old bike. Could look at something else if it was substantially lighter and still fits her current panniers. Not looking to spend more money than we have to though.

We ride in all conditions. The frameset doesn't come with fender eyelets. No, we are not going to look at another frame :) . Will use mud guards instead.

Brass nipples like this -> http://www.pushys.com.au/dt-swiss-2-0mm ... oCUvzw_wcB
??

Do the kojaks come in 28c? -> http://www.schwalbe.com/en/tour-reader/kojak.html
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Re: Rims: Alex EVO super comp vs HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brak

Postby Drizt » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:56 pm

Ok, warming to the idea of the White Industries hubs with the centre lock feature. Which CLD model is appropriate for the frameset?
http://www.whiteind.com/mi6-disc-rear-hubs.html
- which centre lock model ?? [RED]
http://www.whiteind.com/mi6-disc.html
- assuming the 15mm centre lock through axle [RED]

Giant TCX SLR frameset
http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-us/bik ... 817/66510/

I'm wanting to give the HED rim a go [HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brake]. I think it will look awesome and work really well. I know think the 28h will be fine for my wife.
http://www.hedcycling.com.au/ardennes/p ... -DiscBrake

DT swiss comp spokes? Or super comp? Or something else? Happy to be talked into the right spokes

To be honest, I'm not sure which hubs are appropriate for the Giant TCX SLR frameset ???
If someone can give me a list of model numbers I'll approach my bike mech and give him the challenge :)
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Re: Rims: Alex EVO super comp vs HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brak

Postby Drizt » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:14 pm

Not interested in tubular. Clinchers only please.

Also.. can't find Kojak in 700x28c or 700x32c ???

The SCHWALBE ONE ??? Is it rock solid with regards to puncture protection ?
http://www.wiggle.com.au/schwalbe-one-f ... 5360619500

It uses a tube yeh? Can't quite tell what is going on in the picture above.
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Re: Rims: Alex EVO super comp vs HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brak

Postby Blakeylonger » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:27 pm

HEDs site isn't the best for rim details
just go googling for them and you'll find the info.
eg: http://www.bikepro.com.au/ProductDetail ... m-plus-rim

WI vs CK
* Cheaper
* King won't match if you have to use the ISO Disc front (for 15mmTA) and R45 Disc rear.
* Slightly wider centre-flange dimensions on WI for a stronger wheel.
* I've never seen a dead WI hub, I've seen numerous flogged out ring drives locally after not that many kms or abuse.
* Lighter
* Ti freehub, light and strong, CK is either aluminium (will notch) or steel (heavier)
* Centerlock option

Has king beat in every way.

* fenders = mudguards. Unless you're talking about strap on excuses.
* If there are no fender eyelets... where is the rack going to mount? But lucky... you're wrong.

* See this little threaded hole? That's a rack/fender eyelet.
Image

And here's the seatpost clamp with rack mount adaptor
Image

Annnnd the QR fork
Image

But if you go for the 15mm TA fork... you're out of luck. No mounts.
Image

Of course if you're going to set it up like this... don't get the TCX SLR, get a more appropriate frame that has proper mounts for all the crap you want to hang off it. It's a freakin race bike, not a do it all.
Image

Pro lock are good, but those are 2mm, you'll need 1.8 if you use Supercomps. But every time I've bought DT spokes they have come with nipples. Comps are fine (black comps come with alloy nips, turf them), Supercomps are just a shade lighter as they're 2.0/1.7/1.8 compared to 2.0/1.8/2.0. If you want to use the *best* spokes, get Sapim CX-rays.

Kojak is nominally 35mm, but measures 32mm on my 19mm rims. You want 28? Schwalbe One comes in 28, in tubed or tubeless. Any kojaks you see in 28 are old stock and not as good as the current ones.

Tubular =/= tubeless. Tubeless with the right tyres, the right rims and a proper setup will be more puncture proof than a tubed setup, can take a tube if you have catastrophic sealant loss, and if you do slash a tyre that spills sealant everywhere, ain't no spare tube going to fix that on a tubed setup either.

Ride quality is going to be a tradeoff for punctures. It's good, but it's not a marathon. But it also weighs faaaaaaar less, rides faaaaaaaar nicer. I put a season on the predecessor, the UltremoZX 28, no cuts, no flats, excellent performance. The One you linked is a tubed model.

You want the QR CLD model. 135mm spaced. Not the 142x12. Just pick the colour and drilling. For the front, pick the CLD front 9mm QR or 15mm TA depending on the fork with the frameset.

===================================

All that said, I really think this is the wrong frame for the purpose.

Drizt wrote:The Belgium+ is not listed on the HED site ???

Why WI over CK? I have WI T11 hubs in my wheels by the way. Was thinking of going with CK for variety and the fact that the wheel builder prefers them over WI.

Topeak rack, she already owns it and uses on her old bike. Could look at something else if it was substantially lighter and still fits her current panniers. Not looking to spend more money than we have to though.

We ride in all conditions. The frameset doesn't come with fender eyelets. No, we are not going to look at another frame :) . Will use mud guards instead.

Brass nipples like this -> http://www.pushys.com.au/dt-swiss-2-0mm ... oCUvzw_wcB
??

Do the kojaks come in 28c? -> http://www.schwalbe.com/en/tour-reader/kojak.html
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Re: Rims: Alex EVO super comp vs HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brak

Postby Drizt » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:36 pm

How is it the wrong frame? Give me a better option for $700 (the price I can get it for) ??? Remember it is an everything bike, not just a commuter (the bit you seem to be focused on??). Lets just say the commuter part of it is a secondary function. It needs to be as fast and nimble as it can be as well as able to put up with commuting. It is not the end game frame. This is her first road bike, and it is going to be a learning experience. Once she is confident she knows what she likes and doesn't like about the frame I'll buy her a better one. A Ti salsa or Lynskey etc.

Edit: changed fixated to focused... perhaps not the right word to use?
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Re: Rims: Alex EVO super comp vs HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brak

Postby Blakeylonger » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:55 pm

Drizt wrote:So we have decided to go a different path with my wifes commuter build and we have come down to the final few choices...

Usage:
Commuting with panniers
Weekend riding
Everything bike really.
Ridden in pretty hilly area's as well.


You called it a commuter build, not me.

Nowhere in this list do I see "Race cyclocross", which is what this frame is designed for.

You must have a decent hookup to get it at that price, given the TCX SS is USD$1300, which explains your fixation on that particular frame. By all means, go for it, I'm just of the opinion that it's the wrong frame for the job.

Alternatives off the top of my head, not necessarily the best option, but think a little different from the box you're in.
2015 Cannondale Synapse Disc (aluminium, fenders, no rack mount)
2015 GT Grade (TA, carbon or aluminium, fender & "rack" mounts)
2014 Specialized Secteur Disc (QR, aluminium, fender, rack)
2015 Specialized Diverge (TA, carbon, fenders, rack with a replacement seatclamp)
Last edited by Blakeylonger on Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rims: Alex EVO super comp vs HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brak

Postby Drizt » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:01 pm

Blakeylonger wrote:
Drizt wrote:So we have decided to go a different path with my wifes commuter build and we have come down to the final few choices...

Usage:
Commuting with panniers
Weekend riding
Everything bike really.
Ridden in pretty hilly area's as well.


You called it a commuter build, not me.

Nowhere in this list do I see "Race cyclocross", which is what this frame is designed for.

You must have a decent hookup to get it at that price, given the TCX SS is USD$1300, which explains your fixation on that particular frame. By all means, go for it, I'm just of the opinion that it's the wrong frame for the job.


The list actually has more than commuter in it ;)

The TCX SS is the 2015 single speed frame if I'm not mistaken.

I'm happy to be told 'why' it won't suit as an everything / every day bike. Can you list the reasons. Sorry if my post comes across poorly, I'm not overly good at conveying meaning / tone in the written medium. Basically so far I've been told its not the right frame without any alternative suggestions let alone why it is not the right frame. What are the perceived weaknesses?
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Re: Rims: Alex EVO super comp vs HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brak

Postby silentbutdeadly » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:14 pm

I've got Alex ego supercomps on a white ind rear and hope front. You can't have them but they are very very very good. And go tubeless in a heartbeat. Light too...1530 grams. Which is good for xc 29er wheels. Possibly a bit wide for 28mm tyres though but given these will be road wheels, probably OK.
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Re: Rims: Alex EVO super comp vs HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brak

Postby Drizt » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:16 pm

The rack should look more like this (or so I have been led to believe).

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-a8_XcEpsjfE/U1cKYwxjRtI/AAAAAAAADT0/aP87-5Ifybk/w1847-h1385-no/IMG_20140422_182426.jpg
The image below gets cut off

Image
Last edited by Drizt on Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Rims: Alex EVO super comp vs HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brak

Postby Drizt » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:17 pm

silentbutdeadly wrote:I've got Alex ego supercomps on a white ind rear and hope front. You can't have them but they are very very very good. And go tubeless in a heartbeat. Light too...1530 grams. Which is good for xc 29er wheels. Possibly a bit wide for 28mm tyres though but given these will be road wheels, probably OK.


Cool. Got any pic's you can share ?
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Re: Rims: Alex EVO super comp vs HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brak

Postby silentbutdeadly » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:22 pm

Drizt wrote:
silentbutdeadly wrote:I've got Alex ego supercomps on a white ind rear and hope front. You can't have them but they are very very very good. And go tubeless in a heartbeat. Light too...1530 grams. Which is good for xc 29er wheels. Possibly a bit wide for 28mm tyres though but given these will be road wheels, probably OK.


Cool. Got any pic's you can share ?

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Re: Rims: Alex EVO super comp vs HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brak

Postby Drizt » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:23 pm

Thank you, the look pretty slick :)
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Re: Rims: Alex EVO super comp vs HED Ardennes + FR Disc Brak

Postby biker jk » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:26 pm

It's a tricky one given all the requirements you list. You want disc brakes and there aren't many road bike frames that take discs (especially with rack and mudguard mounts). CX frames have relaxed geometry (slack head tube angle) and with long chain stays, this gives a long wheelbase and so they don't turn into corners very quickly. I would go for something like a Cannondale Synapse Disc (either 105 or Ultegra). Not hydraulic brakes but it has rack and mudguard mounts. The 2014 models are going cheap right now.
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