What genius decided ground glass was suitable for surfacing bike lanes?

Cyclophiliac
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What genius decided ground glass was suitable for surfacing bike lanes?

Postby Cyclophiliac » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:09 am

In East Melbourne, there's more of this occurring lately, with bike lanes covered with a new and still loose layer of ground green glass. I just can't fathom their logic, which goes something like
Problem: bike lanes not obvious enough to motorists.
--> Solution: recycle some green bottles and cover the bike lanes with numerous small, sharp shards of glass.

:roll:

I know from first-hand experience that this layer DOES cause tube punctures, and even passed that feedback to the local council once. Their reply basically just said I was wrong. I wish they'd staff the council with a few cyclists who actually use roads and paths and know what the problems are.

Earlier this week, I noticed freshly laid green glass on several sections of the bike lane along Nicholson St East Melbourne. This morning, I avoided it and went along Wellington St instead, only to find that it had also had the same treatment, although probably 1-2 months ago, as it didn't look quite as new and loose.

It's almost as if they WANT cyclists to get punctures and be discouraged from using these streets.

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andrewjcw
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Re: What genius decided ground glass was suitable for surfacing bike lanes?

Postby andrewjcw » Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:08 am

Interesting, never heard of this. Any photos of the surface?

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Mububban
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Re: What genius decided ground glass was suitable for surfacing bike lanes?

Postby Mububban » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:08 am

Cyclophiliac wrote:In East Melbourne, there's more of this occurring lately, with bike lanes covered with a new and still loose layer of ground green glass....


Ya *bleeping* what?!?!?? I've never heard of this before. Recycling is great, but putting GLASS on roads? Specifically cycle paths???
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Mububban
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Re: What genius decided ground glass was suitable for surfacing bike lanes?

Postby Mububban » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:15 am

Okay so a quick google found these Aussie links:

https://www.trafficsystemswest.com.au/p ... ass-beads/

This one says:
http://www.boylan.net.au/uploads/6/1/4/ ... tygrip.pdf

Safetygrip is developed from recycled glass, using a crushing system combined with an attrition and tumbling process to remove sharp edges and shape the glass.


Perhaps their sharp edge removal system needs some more work?
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Re: What genius decided ground glass was suitable for surfacing bike lanes?

Postby Calvin27 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:35 am

I would make a claim about my experiences (or lack of) with punctures on this surface but in fear it might offend the puncture gods, I will simply make a comment that these things are really good at tearing your skin off.
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Re: What genius decided ground glass was suitable for surfacing bike lanes?

Postby andrewjcw » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:51 am

Yeah that's what I was thinking. Punctures wouldn't be a huge concern because I can't imagine it would be any worse than the glass strewn across normal roads and shoulders, but it sounds like they may have made a surface even worse than bitumen to land on which would be quite an accomplishment.

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rkelsen
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Re: What genius decided ground glass was suitable for surfacing bike lanes?

Postby rkelsen » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:35 am

They did exactly the same thing on St Kilda Rd a few years back.

It isn't sharp enough to puncture anything, but would be like sandpaper on skin.

Also, probably wouldn't want to walk on it with bare feet... it'd be like walking on Lego.

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Re: What genius decided ground glass was suitable for surfacing bike lanes?

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:31 pm

My understanding is that the glass is crushed/rolled/whatever to a small size and then filtered to ensure that nothing large gets thru. It should not be abbrasive as the intent is simply to recyle an otherwise useless bit of landfill in place of sand and that it's visual and other properties are not greatly different than if using sand. However it is supposed to dry a little quicker after rain and it can cause the road mix ("glassphalt") to absorb and retain extra heat.

I concede that any research done would probably have ignored thin walled tyres pumped to 120psi so maybe there is a real issue. However, I'm wary of anecdotal evidence just on flats as the product as it's very nature is likely to give rise to confirmation bias. I assume that crushed glass has been used for a some time and yet I have little of anyone discussing it. However if people are recovering bits of glass embedded in their tubes than I guess, again, that it is a real issue.

If it is the colour green that is the give-away to glass being used then I suggest not. They wouldn't bother separating bottles by colour in the process. That green will be coloured powder I would expect. Cyclophilliac, from where did you get the advice about it's use?
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Re: What genius decided ground glass was suitable for surfacing bike lanes?

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:44 pm

Allegedly Donald Trump saw some on a footpath and, liking the sparly effect, demanded that all the paths around his development be done the same.

If it's good enough for the Donald then I guess the argument finished. We don't want it! :mrgreen:
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Re: What genius decided ground glass was suitable for surfacing bike lanes?

Postby Mulger bill » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:06 pm

IIRC, ground glass has been added to linemarking paint for some time in an attempt to increase visibility under lights. Don't seem to make it less skaty in the wet.

A crew was doing the green thing to the Adderley St bikelane near the end of my commute a while back. No punctures in the week or two it took for the excess to blow away. (Gatorskin 28s)
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Re: What genius decided ground glass was suitable for surfacing bike lanes?

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:29 am

Mulger bill wrote:IIRC, ground glass has been added to linemarking paint for some time in an attempt to increase visibility under lights. Don't seem to make it less skaty in the wet.


It's affect is SUPPOSED to be that it doesn't penetrate and so dries out quicker. Though that seems to me to be swapping one fault for another. ie it would have more water on the surface until it is dry.
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Re: What genius decided ground glass was suitable for surfacing bike lanes?

Postby fat and old » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:40 pm

Mulger bill wrote:IIRC, ground glass has been added to linemarking paint for some time in an attempt to increase visibility under lights. Don't seem to make it less skaty in the wet.


Glass beads, special made for the app.

The glass in the green treatment is a real issue. I copped a puncture the day Royal Pde was redone. The glass isn’t sharp enough to penetrate the tyre on its own (I had Vittoria open Corsas 25mm (AT) 95psi or so). What it does very well is take advantage of any nicks cuts or slashes to get in and then go the last bit. I showed the contractor for COM for what it was worth then but was really the first one to do so and was greeted with scepticism. Glad to see this; some extra ammo.

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Re: What genius decided ground glass was suitable for surfacing bike lanes?

Postby eldavo » Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:11 pm

From the other extreme, maybe this stuff would be good limited to the painted lines and large "safety" messages painted on the path, instead of this extra-slippery option.


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Re: What genius decided ground glass was suitable for surfacing bike lanes?

Postby Tequestra » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:13 pm

Mububban wrote:This one says:
http://www.boylan.net.au/uploads/6/1/4/ ... tygrip.pdf

Perhaps their sharp edge removal system needs some more work?

First page of .PDF document reads: "Coloured Recycles Glass"

Seems like their publisher could use some more work as well. This is what you get from that darned 'demand-driven education' system, eh? Lunartics running the asylum.

There are a lot of different applications for recycled glass, as far as I am aware. Back in Adelaide in the early '90s, I worked for a bottle-cleaning place fo a couple of years. We cleaned the intact bottles and sold them back to the wineries, and the broken glass all went into skip bins to be recycled, by colour: clear, green, brown. I was under the impression that broken glass can be melted and blown into fresh glassware or bottles. Maybe that has gone the way of the plastic shopping bags nowadays - not worth the labour costs to bother with it anymore?
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Re: What genius decided ground glass was suitable for surfacing bike lanes?

Postby eldavo » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:24 pm

My guess is the energy to melt large glass scrap is higher burn and messier than using consistent clean fine grain sand at presumably lower cost.

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Re: What genius decided ground glass was suitable for surfacing bike lanes?

Postby Tequestra » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:27 pm

eldavo wrote:My guess is the energy to melt large glass scrap is higher burn and messier than using consistent clean fine grain sand at presumably lower cost.

So true, thank you el Davo. That begs an ominous question: Should we pollute The Earth or pollute The Sky?


Then again, Adelaide - City of Batteries! Maybe there will be an improvement in renewable energy for glass 'reblowing' if that new goverment ever gets its act together. (I remember his fatal directive broadcast on national television on the Friday before the previous SA election ;-)

I guess for now it's best to stick it on the roads where politicians ride their bicycles.
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Re: What genius decided ground glass was suitable for surfacing bike lanes?

Postby Jmuzz » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:01 pm

I've heard it just costs more to recycle than to use new sand.

Instead of a rebate tax like they have now done in NSW they should have put a tax on all new non recycled bottles. Whatever price it needed to be to make recycled the cheaper option.

That way the industry would have implemented its own scheme to collect and recycle bottles, which would be much more effective.

Right now China has stopped accepting our "recyclables" so they are being stored in piles and things like this glass road stuff to desperately offload them somewhere.

A heap of glass particles on roads seems very unwise to me, about as bright as disposing of asbestos by grinding it up and putting into roads. Breathing fine glass particles is deadly.

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Re: What genius decided ground glass was suitable for surfacing bike lanes?

Postby Thoglette » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:29 pm

Jmuzz wrote:Instead of a rebate tax like they have now done in NSW they should have put a tax on all new non recycled bottles. Whatever price it needed to be to make recycled the cheaper option.


The bottom line for this armchair economist: the retail price needs to include the full cost of disposal/mediation.

We used paper bags for decades, which biodegrade in the compost heap/stove. But they cost a few cents each, plastic bags are fractions of a cent wholesale because the cost of clean up is not included.
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Re: What genius decided ground glass was suitable for surfacing bike lanes?

Postby eldavo » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:55 pm

^ this. This little pigovian went to the market.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigovian_tax

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Re: What genius decided ground glass was suitable for surfacing bike lanes?

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:51 pm

eldavo wrote:^ this. This little pigovian went to the market.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigovian_tax

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Re: What genius decided ground glass was suitable for surfacing bike lanes?

Postby rodneycc » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:25 pm

Yeah very unnerving this. They did a section of the green glass stuff on Mountain Hwy Bayswater (Vic) a couple of months back and I rode on it like a day after it was laid and I'm going - Noooo, Don't pucture, crunch crunch, don't puncture, crunch..don't puncture pleaassse. Not nice. I've noticed after about a month it was less coke bottle glassish and smoothed over a bit. Nothing happened but yeah very strange they would put that down like it was (I guess just painting it green wasn't good enough huh).
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Re: What genius decided ground glass was suitable for surfacing bike lanes?

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:58 pm

rodneycc wrote:(I guess just painting it green wasn't good enough huh).

Dusty pamphlet in vicroads queue years back muttered something about wet grip improvement
Not sure how my skin feels about that...
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Re: What genius decided ground glass was suitable for surfacing bike lanes?

Postby redsonic » Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:04 pm

mikesbytes wrote:There's a term where your action incurs a cost but that cost is realised by someone else


A negative externality

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