FTP vs LTHR

The foundations for successful riding

Re: FTP vs LTHR

Postby Jumma » Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:51 pm

Thanks Paul

Yeah, I am using Golden Cheetah and have a reasonable data set in there now. Some 6 weeks or so of trainer sessions and road rides. I just got back from another 2 x 6 km climbs (AT) 6% average up my local mountain. These are just over 20% and I averaged 296 Watts this time, some getting better on this climb. Even though I run a standard with 11-25, which was difficult at first as it started to turn into a grind at times, I am no finding that I am starting to ride more of it in the 12-13 cogs on the rear without grinding i.e. keeping it over 75 and often mid 80's to 90's. So improving I guess and thus the higher power figures and faster times.

Actually, I think you know my sister. I am sure she trained with you only a year or so ago. Her name is Maria and she took out the women's NSW masters back then. I remember she mentioned your name somewhere along the line. She still trains a bit now but she hasn't raced in a while now.

As for FTP, yeah I am happy with where it is set now (AT) 260 as I did a 3 x 8 (AT) 100-105% of FTP with this value the other day and by the end of the third set I was feeling it. This is however at the upper end of threshold range so it should be hard going. I will hold it there for another week or so, probably target the higher end of each workout power range and then adjust it to a higher value in line with today's result - probably set at around 270-275 which is around 93% of this average from today and as Alex Simmons has said low to mid 90's % is probably more realistic. I am happy with this as it feels right!

As I said I am using Golden Cheetah and still learning and trying to get the hand of all this TSS CTL ATL etc. These values are all mapping on my MPC graph in the software. Trying to work out my weaknesses. Problem is how do I know if my CP5 or any other metric sucks?

I am doing my main intervals Tue, Thursday and Saturday at the moment. Tue is normally threshold intervals (AT) either 90-95, 95-100 or 100-105% FTP. THese are either 2X15, 3x10 or 3x8 with 5 min recovery in between. Sometimes I do a light spin on Wednesday zone L1-L2 only. Saturday is normally a HIIT session. I actually use a 90 min CXTC video session which has a mix of lots of on/off sprints and recoveries up to 1.5 mins and some hill climbs. This session normally wrecks me as I go really hard. Otherwise on Saturday I go for a solo mixed ride with some sprints, strava segment runs, a little 10km TT at FTP and above and lots of hill climbs. I go L1-L2 between all of these and try to stay away from L3 (tempo). Sunday I try and do 2-3 plus hours or just free riding. It is mostly L2 with some L4/5 with a bit of tempo in between. Monday I have a break. I do quite a bit of climbing, I enjoy hills for some sick reason. I am trying to do around 200km per week plus, but I would like to ramp it up a bit, time is normally the issue though with a family and kids.

That's my week. Am I obsessed? Yes :) Pretty OCD really!! I just love being on my bike.

I try to do a lot of climbing too each week as this helps with strength. I am also doing some basic core work and calf raises and squats to help with strength.

Now if I can work out the MPC stuff that will be great!

I think I am going down the right path. I want to start racing in October so I want to at least be good enough to hold on to the pack. I am 80 kg and my FTP I guess is sub 3.5 W/kg if that means much!

Cheers

James
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by BNA » Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:08 pm

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Re: FTP vs LTHR

Postby Derny Driver » Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:08 pm

Jumma wrote:I think I am going down the right path. I want to start racing in October so I want to at least be good enough to hold on to the pack. I am 80 kg and my FTP I guess is sub 3.5 W/kg if that means much!

Theres a lot more to racing than good watts per kilo /power numbers. No matter how prepared you are, you will do well if you can just finish with the group. Racing by nature is very different to anything you can simulate in training. Expect to get your ar$$e handed to you for the first few weeks, even in the lower grades, even with good fitness, strength and power. If you are a smart guy, you will learn fast and adjust. But its a journey.
I know your sister, good rider and a nice person too.
Cheers
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Re: FTP vs LTHR

Postby Xplora » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:10 pm

Derny Driver wrote:Racing by nature is very different to anything you can simulate in training.

Amen to that! It MIGHT improve your performances as well. I go a million times harder chasing a result than any interval.

Then the challenge is finding a good horse whisperer that can tell you how to resist that million times until the critical moment, whenever that really is 8)
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Re: FTP vs LTHR

Postby Jumma » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:17 pm

Yeah. I have done a little bit of MTB racing in the past. That is how I got into road cycling really.

I was kind of expecting to get smashed in the races. Mind you I am chasing 50 and No spring chicken :)

I do know what you mean re performance when there is someone to chase rather than training on your own.

I think the variance between training a racing effort is however somewhat dependant on how much "go" one has on general.

Understand that racing gets you fit too. A good thing!
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Re: FTP vs LTHR

Postby Rocketrod » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:49 pm

Jumma,
Come out in some pack rides before you race to get you more comfortable.
Common pack rides;
Fridays 6am at diggies cafe, goes to Austi and sea cliff bridge.
Sunday 7am meet opposite unanderra pool for a loop around the lake, speeds can vary.
Always coffee after!
Everyone would know Maria! I haven't seen her since she moved to Sydney.
Ride down to the club race and see how things run, meet some people and see what you think.

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Re: FTP vs LTHR

Postby Jumma » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:46 pm

Rod. That sounds good.
I'll try and get in on one of those groups.
Maria still lives in Dapto. She never lived in Sydney.
Thanks


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Re: FTP vs LTHR

Postby Rocketrod » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:10 pm

Ok, I knew she was working up there and assumed she had moved as I have not seen her ride since the ken dinnerville race 2 yrs ago!

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FTP vs LTHR

Postby Jumma » Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:57 pm

Hey Rod
Yeah she hurt her back a while back and stopped. She is still punishing herself in her garage these days when she has time. Normally 4am or so in the mornings. Sufferfest!!!

Who rides the Saturday lake ride? Do guys like Dave Russell ride it? I met him a while ago riding out one if the ICC races. Nice guy. Anyhow weather permitting I might try and get in on a lake ride. Is there a FB page or something that let's riders know if the rides are on. Like strava or something??

Yeah. And coffee after sounds good :)

Thanks
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Re: FTP vs LTHR

Postby Rocketrod » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:12 pm

Jumma,

Dave does come out on the Sunday ride around the lake, it is a club recovery ride so the pace can be mellow or quick depending who comes out to play!

The club races on sat at the moment at 2pm from don's farm, at the end of Avondale rd. A pack leaves figtree cellars at 1pm to go down to the race and will go back after.

Sat rides in the morning are generally with people you know.

Once you get into the club scene and go out on some pack rides you will link up with people. Some groups can be a little bit closed but the majority are great.

Rod
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Re: FTP vs LTHR

Postby Derny Driver » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:59 pm

Rocketrod wrote:Jumma,
Some groups can be a little bit closed but the majority are great.

I commented on a different thread last week about how cyclists are usually wary of new people joining in on their bunch rides. Riding in a bunch at high speeds requires a certain amount of trust in each other's ability. Once you join the club, you are insured, and wearing a SOTO shirt will bring immediate acceptance into most group rides.
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Re: FTP vs LTHR

Postby Jumma » Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:35 pm

Still on the topic of training and zones.

I have heard the term "no man's land", "happy hard training" and the like come up from time to time.

Now, as I understand it. NML is basically that range between 80-85% of your MHR. For someone putting in a lot of training hours it is apparently not effective to train in this range. I know I try to stay in L1/L2 for most of my road rides and do intervals at L4 and greater as planned. I try to avoid L3 in between any intervals. Though I do venture into L3 when the gradient goes up a bit. As I understand it and according to the rules of NML it is OK to spend a lot of time in the lower ranges of L3, as long as you dont spent a lot of time at the upper nd of L3 and lower range of L4.

Not sure what this equates to as a percentage of FTP as a range. However if my FTP is set at 260 watts then my typical Mt Keira climb intervals (normally 8-10 minutes (AT) 6% average) have me sitting right in this 80-85% of my MHR range on average for the whole time. During this time I also push an average 290 watts, which is well into my Z4 (VO2 Max). What range in % of FTP is this NML zone?? Because if I use my current FTP of 260 and I am sitting in 80-85% MHR or NML for every interval I do - is this effective training??

If I have a power range as a percentage of FTP that equates to NML - should I be avoiding this zone or power range?? Based on an FTP of 260 I think it may be something like 235 to 255 watts range.

Any thoughts??

As for the group rides and previous comments, yes, I understand the "trust" thing with new riders joining a group. I have ridden in groups before so do understand the etiquette, signals and responsibilities of riding front, mid and rear. I did ride this morning and did think to myself - I am getting a bit sick of riding solo all the time. It can be a lonely and boring gig at times.

Also, SOTO shirts are discounted at the moment, but I am not sure if this is because they are bringing out new designs? I will look into it.

Cheers

James
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Re: FTP vs LTHR

Postby Rocketrod » Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:20 pm

Jumma,

A quick search came up with this from freil-

-I think you must be getting me confused with someone else. I've never said one should never be in z3. For example, if racing a half IM that is typically done in z3. So to never train at that intensity would mean never preparing for the race. The peloton in a bike race moves along about z3 intensity, usually. There is a time for everything. Once you've established good aerobic fitness then it's time to move onto something else.

I almost always express the intensity of the cycling portions of my athletes' workouts in terms of power. But I realize that most readers of this blog don't have power meters (if you don't then you are missing out on the perhaps best thing to ever happen to bike training). That means training by heart rate which is much less precise but better than using a rating of perceived exertion (RPE). So below are the zones I use.

The power zones are from Allen and Coggan, Training and Racing With a Power Meter, and the heart rate zones are from my Training Bible books. Realize that they will not always produce the same RPE. For aerobically fit riders I typically find that HR zones are a bit more challenging (in terms of RPE) than power. In other wordes, riding in HR z3 will feel a bit more difficult than riding in power z3. That's not always the case, but very common. There's usually an overlap between the two. But all of this is highly dependent on the athlete and varies considerably from one to another.

Cycling Power zones as a percent of functional threshold power—FTP (Allen and Coggan)

Z1 <55% of FTP

Z2 56-75%

Z3 76-90%

Z4 91-105%

Z5 106-120%

Z6 121-150%



Cycling HR Zones as a percent of anaerobic threshold—ATHR (Friel)

Z1 <80% of ATHR

Z2 80-89%

Z3 90-93%

Z4 94-100%

Z5a 100-102%

Z5b 103-105%

Z5c >105%

I think the club has changed brands but design is the same.
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Re: FTP vs LTHR

Postby Jumma » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:08 pm

Yes. Zones are as you have posted. But that area between High L3 and lower L4 is apparently NML and some say should be avoided. I think this means you can train in L3 up to there no problems.

It's all a bit confusing really!, so many different views on the subject.

I wonder what the difference in brands is? I might still pick up a current set at discount to start with. Can never have enough jerseys or bibs at that.



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Re: FTP vs LTHR

Postby Strawburger » Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:08 am

Google sst training and you may come away with a different view on upper l3 to lower l4 zones.

In reality, you should be training to the zones your racing demands.

Knowing my event's demands, I'm able to have more personal successful. Doing 1min intervals set me up to perform well to be able to sustain the many attacks, my 5min intervals got me over the climbs and l2-3 for the rolling hills. Fortunately I am pretty good at freewheeling too :)
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Re: FTP vs LTHR

Postby Xplora » Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:37 pm

Yep what straw said.
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Re: FTP vs LTHR

Postby Jumma » Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:36 pm

Ok. Yes I had seen some stuff on Sweet spot training and as I understand it's just under threshold!?

I do a bit of it like 2x15 (AT) 90-95 % FTP and 3x10 (AT) 95-100% FTP.

And that is what I thought - that racing pace sat in L3 tempo a lot.

I will keep doing what I am for now and add some VO2 max intervals in there also to help me prepare for attacks and short sprints.

Thanks

James
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Re: FTP vs LTHR

Postby Xplora » Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:54 pm

Just for the record, SST is 88-93%, so if you are sitting at 90% then you are right in the middle of it.

The aim of SST is to allow you to spend more time deep into the aerobic zone, doing 15 minute intervals instead of 5, and doing 4-6 of them, instead of 5 lots of 5. Your gains vs effort are supposed to be disproportionately high. If you have accidently overestimated FTP, your attempted SST interval in the top of the range will be SST, and if you're underestimated, you will be doing an FTP interval. Neither are terrible things.

The key issue is that doing 45-60 minutes a day at 100% FTP will diminish your will to live. Let alone ride. It is true suffering. If you overestimated FTP, doing it at 105% of your real FTP is even worse. But, you dial it back 10-12% and you can cope with much much more.

The SST stuff is a bit hazy IMO. I think it's based heavily on Hunter Allan and Andy Coggan's personal experiences, and they tend to preach a system where you mainly focus on FTP gains, as opposed to VO2Max or anaerobic efforts etc. NSW Road Champs were on this weekend, Elites rode 160kms for 4 hours. We just don't have the same kind of racing as the USA has, so that's worth bearing in mind too. If I was you, keep climbing that hill, see what happens. :lol:
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Re: FTP vs LTHR

Postby Strawburger » Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:31 pm

Xplora wrote:
The SST stuff is a bit hazy IMO. I think it's based heavily on Hunter Allan and Andy Coggan's personal experiences, and they tend to preach a system where you mainly focus on FTP gains, as opposed to VO2Max or anaerobic efforts etc. NSW Road Champs were on this weekend, Elites rode 160kms for 4 hours. We just don't have the same kind of racing as the USA has, so that's worth bearing in mind too. If I was you, keep climbing that hill, see what happens. :lol:


absolutely (for Xplora's entire post)!

Off topic: did you ride out at kurrajong yesterday?
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Re: FTP vs LTHR

Postby Xplora » Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:44 pm

Nah just observed a few guys prepping, it is clearto me that intervals help, but really big rides are the key. A mate is in an NRS dev squad, he is a bit quicker on climbs, but he will hit the gorges half a dozen times once a week when looking to peak, and get an imperial hundred in quite regularly. Its theability to hold a wheel for 2-3 hours at pace that makes him good. You won't get that doing coffee rides, or SST intervals. 130+ kms rides makes it happen. I feel better after 120 on the weekend.
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Re: FTP vs LTHR

Postby Jumma » Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:49 pm

Yeah. I will keep doing those hill climbs cause they have got to make me stronger.

As for the long rides. I would love to do some 4hr plus rides at the 26-27 kph average but I need someone or a group to do them with. I couldn't see me doing 4 hours or more solo. One ride I would like to do is the gong to engadine, waterfall and back through the National Park.

Anyhow the weather has been great last couple days for riding. Bring on spring!




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Re: FTP vs LTHR

Postby Xplora » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:02 pm

Mate, you do the big rides enough, you'll find people to do them with. Maybe join a couple rides together :idea: and tail someone else's bunch.
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Re: FTP vs LTHR

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:32 pm

Xplora wrote:Just for the record, SST is 88-93%, so if you are sitting at 90% then you are right in the middle of it.

The aim of SST is to allow you to spend more time deep into the aerobic zone, doing 15 minute intervals instead of 5, and doing 4-6 of them, instead of 5 lots of 5. Your gains vs effort are supposed to be disproportionately high. If you have accidently overestimated FTP, your attempted SST interval in the top of the range will be SST, and if you're underestimated, you will be doing an FTP interval. Neither are terrible things.

The key issue is that doing 45-60 minutes a day at 100% FTP will diminish your will to live. Let alone ride. It is true suffering. If you overestimated FTP, doing it at 105% of your real FTP is even worse. But, you dial it back 10-12% and you can cope with much much more.

The SST stuff is a bit hazy IMO. I think it's based heavily on Hunter Allan and Andy Coggan's personal experiences, and they tend to preach a system where you mainly focus on FTP gains, as opposed to VO2Max or anaerobic efforts etc. NSW Road Champs were on this weekend, Elites rode 160kms for 4 hours. We just don't have the same kind of racing as the USA has, so that's worth bearing in mind too. If I was you, keep climbing that hill, see what happens. :lol:


SST is a concept, not an intensity.

And no, it's not based on Hunter and Andy's personal experiences. People have been doing this sort of training in many aerobic endurance sports (including cycling) for most of the past century. SST was just a means to help conveniently convey similar concepts to the power meter using cyclist.
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Re: FTP vs LTHR

Postby Xplora » Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:53 pm

Referring to The Next Level plan, and the general direction of TARWP, from my reading of it.

The Friel book is much friendlier to the rider and the soul :lol:
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Re: FTP vs LTHR

Postby Derny Driver » Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:39 pm

Jumma wrote:
As for the long rides. I would love to do some 4hr plus rides at the 26-27 kph average but I need someone or a group to do them with. I couldn't see me doing 4 hours or more solo. One ride I would like to do is the gong to engadine, waterfall and back through the National Park.
k

There's better ones than that mate. I can think of 3 off the top of my head, starting at the Gong. Next time my son and nephew are doing a long one I'll let you know. I tag along on the scooter with the spares.
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Re: FTP vs LTHR

Postby Jumma » Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:55 am

Finally got in 98 km on Sunday with a ride buddy. Averaged 26 km/hr with no drafting (too busy chatting) and feel OK today, other than quads being a little sore. Did about 1300 m of climbing all up. Averaged 175 w overall including zeros, so on average was mostly in the L2/L3 zones, except for that damn punishing section after Jamberoo - hills, hills, the "fun park" hill and L4/L5 was visited quite a bit!!!

We did Gong to Minnamurra, across through Jamberoo, through the hills, Albion Park, West Dapto, Unanderra back for Diggies Coffee. Weather was awesome. We did OK I think considering we had done a 45 k run up to Coledale and back on the Saturday morning. Been logging about 200 km per week for the past few weeks and this week closer to 240.

Got my application for for Cycling Australia. Filled out, just need top pay and hand it in. I understand that if I pay now, this covers until January 2016? Is this correct? It is in the $200's to pay also?? Can anyone confirm please? Also, who do I get the money and form to? Can I fax and transfer money electronic?? BPay to pay my membership fees??

I think the first race I will be in will be the scratch race on 5 October???!?? Bit nervous about it, but like they say - face your fears :)

Anyhow, with this nice weather I haven't spent much time on the trainer, so not as targeted training, but I have ridden with a couple of groups who have all been friendly. I am happy I have now proven to myself I can hold a reasonable solo pace with some decent climbs for close to 100 km and still be able to walk the next day, so that is great, and no cramps - bonus!

If someone can put me straight on the payment and membership for ICC that would be great, thanks.

Thanks again.

James
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