The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Xplora » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:23 pm

Another SST for me, 3x15 today. Bit of a revelation for me, but I've started checking Lap Average Power as well as instantaneous power, and same for HR. Finding it much more illuminating, and less frustrating, allowing the power and cadence to drift a little bit. Some at 88%, some at 95-100%, as long as the average for the interval is right, who cares? Also good to eyeball the heart rate properly, noticed I don't seem to hate my legs at 164bpm, but 167 is certainly over threshold. I have so much work to do under threshold that it's nice to just know that a strong tempo effort will be enough.
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by BNA » Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:28 pm

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby leximack » Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:28 pm

howdy training dudes, been a while so thought i would pop in for a looksie. Still have no idea what your all on about :lol: :lol:
I have been slack over the last few weeks, rain, family, cbf'd etc. Only 1 ride last week (sunday) and even though it was slow overall had a bit of a hitout with gboaf between eliz dr and prestons. Good fun :D :D
Today i rode again and the legs felt good :D :D
Hopefully can get a few more rides in this week :D
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby g-boaf » Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:49 pm

Yeah that was good fun! 8) I've got the all clear on the injury front too. :)

I don't know if I'll get out before the weekend. I think the next three days are already planned with some low cadence intervals (just for a week) and then back to the high rpm intervals next week.
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Xplora » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:02 am

You were scaring me with your last interval report, boaf... 240w for 2x18 is taking it easy?! :shock:

Thinking about when I hit the bike tomorrow, busy with family for dinner, no FPR for me :roll:
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby g-boaf » Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:01 am

I think we might be looking at power differently - I reckon you are probably looking at NP for the entire session and I'm looking at just the average for each interval, ignoring the rest and warmup parts. With all your efforts, you'd be able to hit some pretty good numbers I'm sure.
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Cul » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:04 pm

Xplora wrote:You were scaring me with your last interval report, boaf... 240w for 2x18 is taking it easy?! :shock:


All relative to weight / FTP I guess; 240w for me is the top end of Z2 :P


I'm taking it fairly easy this week (again); I tried to race the club champs on the weekend which ended in disaster; 15mins in the peloton hit a slight incline and my HR just pegged to MAX and wouldn't drop back down until I started easy pedalling. Racing with Bronchitis probably wasn't a smart move. :(
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby g-boaf » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:58 pm

Cul wrote:
Xplora wrote:You were scaring me with your last interval report, boaf... 240w for 2x18 is taking it easy?! :shock:


All relative to weight / FTP I guess; 240w for me is the top end of Z2 :P


Ain't that the truth. The place I do training at, they look at me walking back some days with Maccas or fish and chips for lunch and you can see the frowns and disapproving looks. :lol: :oops: Not that I've got much excess kilos, but they seem to reckon I could do a bit better in that regard. :oops:

Bad luck on the illness - rest up and get well soon.
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby march83 » Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:09 pm

Cul wrote:All relative


exactly.

@xplora: for reference, the fields on my screen for intervals are 3s power, lap avg power, lap time and cadence. 3s power, i just make sure it's not too high (ie too far above my target lap power). lap avg power, I keep it close to the target +/- a few - if it falls behind i can push a little to get it back where it belongs. lap time so I know how much suffering is left and cadence to see if i'm grinding or spinning smoothly. i used to look at HR, but it can be a psychological barrier - if i'm pushing a few watts above my typical LTHR i can spook myself out of pushing as hard as i might otherwise like to.

like you say, the lap average one is the one to watch. so long as 3s is steady and lap avg is at the number you want at the end of the interval then it's been successful. you can also watch it rise and fall if you're pushing on at the end of an interval or struggling and pedalling squares.
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Cul » Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:45 pm

Boaf, I'm sure we could all stand to loose a few kg's. :shock:

March, interesting to see what others have on screen. I personally have about 5 pages of different screens but there is only one that I use almost religiously, the others are there with bits and pieces of supplementary info. 8)

My main display has...
3sec Avg Power (top large)
Cadence (middle)
Speed (bottom LH)
Lap time. (bottom RH)

I find I don't use anything else, I don't look at the average or normalised power, IF, of intervals, etc... until I get home and analyse the file in full. I find I know how I am feeling on the road, so don't need that motivator to push hard on the next interval. I also steer well clear of looking at HR as that tends to be a mental road block when doing intervals. :shock:
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby g-boaf » Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:15 pm

This is how my Garmin screen is set up:

Image

I've got the other screen with watts on it, but I don't look at that too much. When I'm training and not just doing Z2/Z3 kms on the road-bike - I do that indoors on a computrainer with perfpro software and a display projected on the wall in front of me. I see watts, watts/kg, hr, cadence, FTP and the graph showing the intervals. and whatever video is on behind those graphics. I get the results from that emailed to me and automatically uploaded to TP.
Last edited by g-boaf on Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Xplora » Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:17 pm

Belted out the heaviest weight session yet. Really need some work to afford some bigger kettlebells, deadlifted all 3 bells at once this morning. Don't be impressed, a healthy adult male should be able to deadlift 32kgs x8 in their sleep. (of course, no one is impressed anyway :lol: )

cul, just wondering if it would be worthwhile tracing your PMC, because I reckon you might have peaked a month ago :idea: Seems like your performances having met expectation a few times, and maybe you were just doing too much too soon?

Cheers for the garmin screens.
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Cul » Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:59 pm

Xplora wrote:cul, just wondering if it would be worthwhile tracing your PMC, because I reckon you might have peaked a month ago :idea: Seems like your performances having met expectation a few times, and maybe you were just doing too much too soon?


Xplora, It's something I keep a close eye on, as I like to keep track of where it's going. I've attached an image of the TP, PMC for reference with few notes below because it looks like a shemozzle!

Probably the biggest thing worth noting is that I am not “peaking” for a particular event, the nature of the racing I am (was) doing is that it is in a series, generally a month apart with the exception of July / Aug / Sept, so instead of peaking the idea was to “train” though this period and manage the REST because post event my TSB would be -60odd. So something like Race, Rest, Build, Build, Taper, Race, repeat. Where races were spaced closer together the plan was to rest up the week after the race, train solid the later part of that week, the weekend and the early part of the next week before tapering and racing again. Essentially training to maintain what you’d gained from the last race.

However, having a little one, being the middle of flying bicycles winter and the like made difficult to keep the momentum going.

Notes on PMC Below.

1) This is where Aidan was born, it’s worth noting that data up to this point and the start of May is calculated using hrTSS so may not be entirely accurate. It's at this point where I went from riding 13hrs a week doing a combination of a lot of Z2/FTP Intervals Z2/Vo2 Max to training approx. 8hrs a week, doing FTP Intervals / Vo2 Work padded out with easy rides and tempo where possible.

2) I had a fantastically consistent start to June, for 2 weeks I nailed every workout and was on top of the world, gain of approx. 5 CTL points over a 2.5 week period.

3) Later part of June and Early July was no good, struggled with consistency and even getting out (I have a feeling there might be some workouts missing here too).

4) 6hr race 26th and again on the 10th of Aug hence dramatic spike in CTL, races were padded out with easy rides and some "work" here and there.

5) Wife falls ill on 17th Aug, riding limited, 6hr race missed on 24th August and limited riding since…

6) Proposed gain, needs to be stripped back a bit as the TSB goes too negative towards the 4th of Oct (100km Marathon).

Image

The PMC is a great tool however there are a few fundamental flaws; there are no measure of external stresses, life, work, lack of recovery, etc... Also during the period where it dips at the end of June and start of July (3) my performance should have “dropped” however during this period I hit a new 5min/w PB, a new 10min/w PB, and a new 20min/w PB in three separate rides, with varying TSB (-/+ 5).
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Xplora » Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:50 pm

Alex might disagree, but I can see a couple of things at a guess.

Firstly, blue is CTL, pink ATL, yellow is TSB?
We've assumed your CTL/ATL curves are 42/7 days, standard stuff. This might be inappropriate for you. Is your FTP correct?
I've been doing crash training this past month, basically drilling myself and completely resting the next day. I just can't do anything else with the baby. It's instructive that I am also putting in a few 250+ TSS days, and very few sub80 tss days. I suspect some of this is FTP bumpkin for me, but the reality is that if you are going deep anaerobic then adding 20 or 30 to your FTP isn't going to change things much. I had 337 tss for Saturday at 250 FTP, moved it to 260 and got 330 tss. I'm running -40 to -60 all the time right now. This is partly the weights as well, I'm using a 100 TSS arbitrary amount because I historically have poor recovery from lifting. Helps me to avoid going nuts and doing hill repeats within 48 hours of any lifting session. But I'm also carrying around 10 CTL/week according to my PMC. Something ain't right with that, Willis.

A couple of assumptions about the PMC - more TSS is good, running super low TSB is bad, higher CTL is good, high ATL is bad, high CTL means you perform better. You can "keep" gains from a race.

This doesn't hold true for everyone. You said you got PBs while holding a lower CTL. Have you referenced any other PMC styles? aeTISS/anTISS or Skiba? Get Golden Cheetah and just see if your data looks different against another PMC, or change the rolling average lengths. You might recover faster than you think. I am not 100% sure about carrying race gains. Yes, it makes you stronger, but the damage a 500 tss ride is doing to your body might be more important to remove than maintaining gains. Did you really unload the TSB enough to peak for those big races? Are you actually carrying enough CTL into the big 6 hour race to cope? We've made some assumptions here that your training approach actually produces results in the race, rather than results on the mean max chart.

IMO I would dump all the hrTSS related data and restart the curve once you have the power meter. Maybe that is the reason why your performance in June was so strong? I've actually had 3 athlete profiles on the PC, each time I've changed power analysis device - powercal, quarq and srm. It's too hard to work out what is going on. You would do well to take some time off, you've been riding most of the time for MONTHS. When does the season end??? :lol:

TL:DR, the PMC isn't an eternal bible, it can be changed and if I was you I would start changing it.
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby g-boaf » Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:54 pm

That's all just way over my head, but anyway.

Yeah - tonight's 3x10 at 55-65rpm showed that I lost some strength - it was hard. Perfect way to give yourself sore legs. ;)
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Cul » Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:41 pm

Xplora wrote:Alex might disagree, but I can see a couple of things at a guess.

Firstly, blue is CTL, pink ATL, yellow is TSB?


Yep, thats correct! :|

Xplora wrote:We've assumed your CTL/ATL curves are 42/7 days, standard stuff. This might be inappropriate for you. Is your FTP correct?

Tested, retested seems fairly consistent, rising slowly. :|


Xplora wrote:A couple of assumptions about the PMC - more TSS is good, running super low TSB is bad, higher CTL is good, high ATL is bad, high CTL means you perform better. You can "keep" gains from a race. This doesn't hold true for everyone. You said you got PBs while holding a lower CTL. Have you referenced any other PMC styles? aeTISS/anTISS or Skiba? Get Golden Cheetah and just see if your data looks different against another PMC, or change the rolling average lengths. You might recover faster than you think. I am not 100% sure about carrying race gains. Yes, it makes you stronger, but the damage a 500 tss ride is doing to your body might be more important to remove than maintaining gains. Did you really unload the TSB enough to peak for those big races? Are you actually carrying enough CTL into the big 6 hour race to cope? We've made some assumptions here that your training approach actually produces results in the race, rather than results on the mean max chart.


Other PMC's show similar trends, although the one on GC only pics up from when I first got the PM, so it doesn't reference existing fitness / stress. Maybe the rolling averages need looking at, but that is something beyond my GC/TP know how at the moment. :?

As to carrying gains from racing, the 450/500TSS events are huge whacks of stress, however usually 4 days later I am up to my usual antics hurting the fast bunch; TSB will take approx 6 to 7 days to go close positive however there is usually a few ~60TSS easy rides, a ~130TSS bunchie, and maybe a 200TSS or so long ride in there during that 6 to 7 days. I find the week after a race like this I am always pushing a few extra watts during intervals so there is gains there, however marginal they may be. 8)

Xplora wrote:IMO I would dump all the hrTSS related data and restart the curve once you have the power meter. Maybe that is the reason why your performance in June was so strong? I've actually had 3 athlete profiles on the PC, each time I've changed power analysis device - powercal, quarq and srm. It's too hard to work out what is going on. You would do well to take some time off, you've been riding most of the time for MONTHS. When does the season end??? :lol:


Enter GC PMC (below); I have found on TP the hrTSS is relatively close to TSS on 5 or 6 given rides - the variability of HR means it is inevitable have it's inaccuracies at times. I am using the time at the moment at time off the bike, granted it's an enforced break but it will do me well - the latter part of September I am off to Canberra and Coffs Harbour with the bikes in tow for a bit of a "family holiday" which will be a great de-load.

Image

I do ride most of the year round, however I regularly take time out from structured training and just ride my bike... At the end of the day I guess I ride my bike(s) because I love riding, I just train because I love riding fast :wink:




*** PS how polished is the latest version of Golden Cheetah, get on it people!
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Xplora » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:49 pm

I don't use TP, had no idea :lol: the build is the same in both charts. The chart shows no real break after the May race, which leads into your June PBs, but then tapers for 3 weeks... I am trying to get my head around it all, you clearly have a very consistent training pattern but you can see very very clear directions on the PMC which don't really imply that consistency or necessarily reflect your build build taper plan.
Just trying to see it with fresh eyes.
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby kb » Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:28 am

kb wrote:Had my strongest ride ever on Saturday. Hoping I can keep the momentum for a few more weeks.


That would be a not really. A combination of increased extra-curricular activities, wheel issues, bottom bracket issues, chain jam bending front derailleur, rear derailleur cable snapping and weather have conspired against me. Irritating. On the other hand, I haven't been overdoing it :-). So impressed with all you folk with kids to manage too...
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Xplora » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:30 am

kb wrote: So impressed with all you folk with kids to manage too...


You don't have a reason to ride ;) "ESCAPE"
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Cul » Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:47 am

Back on the bike finally...

Hit the trainer last night just to get the legs going, Z2 w/ 2 x [5 x 30sec on / 30sec off Z6 Intervals], really struggled on the last set not sure whether it was the underlying illness or just the fact that I haven't ridden a bike in anger for some time. :|

Today 2hrs Z2 and hour of it behind the scooter. 8)
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Ignoto » Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:24 am

g-boaf wrote:This is how my Garmin screen is set up:

Image


G-Boaf, hooooooooooooooooow the hell did you do this? I'd kill to know if it's possible to make temporary screens (outside of using the actual garmin) on the PC.
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby g-boaf » Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:33 am

That was a photo of the Garmin screen
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Xplora » Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:22 pm

One of the frustrations I have with some of the Garmin data is that things like power zone can't be set to run an average 3s or 10s. If I know I'm aiming for 3.8 in the zone, I just can't stay on 3.7-3.9 consistently unless I'm spinning at 75rpm. Not a safe option on the rollers.

That said, if you are OK with being a bit sloppy then the Power Zone or %FTP is quite useful!
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby kb » Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:51 pm

g-boaf wrote:That was a photo of the Garmin screen

Although there is a screen shot setting. Momentary press of the power button will leave the screenshot (bitmap?) on the Garmin's file system.
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby g-boaf » Thu Sep 04, 2014 5:34 pm

Xplora wrote:One of the frustrations I have with some of the Garmin data is that things like power zone can't be set to run an average 3s or 10s. If I know I'm aiming for 3.8 in the zone, I just can't stay on 3.7-3.9 consistently unless I'm spinning at 75rpm. Not a safe option on the rollers.

That said, if you are OK with being a bit sloppy then the Power Zone or %FTP is quite useful!


Yeah - I know what you mean. I only recently set that up on the Garmin. The instant number is too variable.

I planned on 2x18min today. Unfortunately a computer crash (blue screen of death) during the first 18min block stuffed up that. :roll: So I did the second 18min at 255w with cadence around 90rpm. That didn't feel too bad, maybe about 7/10 perceived effort - pretty pleased with that. :)
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Xplora » Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:59 pm

I hope you've been hitting the burger and chips, ya fat bastard... your power to weight numbers are putting me to shame. I'm off to do some Maffetonne intervals. Tempo tempo tempo....

edit: Maffetone be buggered. Did some step intervals, legs are getting tired after consecutive days. How am I going to cope with commuting again :lol:

What's people's experience with heart rate training? I seem to have an enormous gap between 130 and 160 where RPE is really low then getting pretty high for a 5 minute interval of each. It seems I'm running tempo through that entire range, which doesn't seem right. Maybe I just suck at steady state riding at the moment?
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