HR & wind direction.

kenwstr
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HR & wind direction.

Postby kenwstr » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:10 pm

Hi, Just wondering if anyone can shed light on why I find it harder to keep HR up going upwind but easy going downwind.
I'm 60yo and 63 kg maybe a little heavier after Christmas. I have noticed that I tend to run a lower HR upwind than downwind, assuming I have anti-static sprayed my Jersey. I had a layoff over winter and am back into it but decided to try a month doing just below FTHR rides. That is absolutely no efforts, just steady HR for up to 90 min (idealy). The course (44 km) generally follows flood plains along local creeks so is relatively flat-ish. OK given a warm up and cool down, this is a little short but I need to build up a bit more before extending the distance and time. I'm doing 2 of these rides in a week and a shorter ride with brief hill intervals above FTHR and long recovery. To determine FTHR, I know my HR max on any recent ride is 185 bpm and I can sustain 160+ bpm on for 30 min if the wind is low so I try to keep closer to the lower end of the 150-160 bpm range and have no difficulty doing that with a tailwind of slight headwind. However if there is a strong headwind like today (average wind 30 kmph), I have real trouble just getting to 150 bpm. I don't have a cadence meter but I count so I think I am doing about the same as usual. My leg muscles are screaming but my HR and breathing are low. Am I in too high a gear? If I drop to a lower gear, I spin faster which is not any easier on the legs and still near impossible to get in the HR zone.

What is the go because I feel that I am working at my upper sustainable limit but my CV system is just idling?

Ken

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andrewjcw
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Re: HR & wind direction.

Postby andrewjcw » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:40 pm

It's probably your head working against you, seeing yourself having such a slow speed isn't conducive to the adrenaline and thrill of working hard and getting in the zone so you mentally throw in the towel and drop the power before the heart rate reacts to the effort.

I'm sure if a bear was chasing you you'd manage to find the strength to get your legs working enough to get the hr up.

I'd try turning off your speed/time/distance info on your computer. Just have hr and focus on your breathing and keep your hr in the zone you're targeting. Your actual speed/gradient/direction is irrelevant, all that matters is the power going through the drivetrain and your effort.

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Derny Driver
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Re: HR & wind direction.

Postby Derny Driver » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:01 pm

Ken ... whatever you are doing or trying to do ...is pointless ...and useless. Stop it mate. Really. Take your monitor off and leave it at home.
Please dont take offence and just listen... and excuse my bluntness. I have no idea what you are trying to achieve with the training by heart rate thing. Im guessing you are trying to train in a certain zone or something. Im also guessing you are trying to improve or get faster on the bike by doing this.
I have raced at a reasonably high level for 6 years. I have also coached / trained 20 - 30 world and Australian champions ranging from u19 to masters, both road and track. I currently have my finger in the pie of 3 NRS professional teams. I have taken riders and teams to many overseas tours. I have seen the methods used by hundreds of cyclists to race at the highest level. Almost nobody wears a heart rate monitor training. Racing yes, training no. You are doing it all wrong (in my opinion).
Now its true that most good cyclists whether recreational or elite are using a powermeter to get the most out of their training sessions ...under the supervision of an accredited coach (I should add that because a powermeter by itself does nothing except give you a number). But not everyone, and when I was racing powermeters were not invented and you can still make massive improvements in your cycling without one. But a heart rate monitor is not a powermeter, and if you want my advice, I would say you are better off training with NOTHING than trying to use a heart rate monitor.
You've already seen how ridiculously unreliable heart rate is, there is no answer to your question "why is it so" because it makes no sense. Your heart rate could be high today and low tomorrow for no apparent reason. I tried using a HRM when I was training too, only to find I could never get the thing to register high numbers no matter what I did. The highest number I ever saw training at my very hardest efforts was about 160. In racing though I would hit 192 in the sprint almost every week, same thing on the crest of the hill which was mid race ... I guess I put that down to adrenaline, fear of being dropped up the hill, the desire to win the race in the sprint. I used that maximum number to give me my lactate threshold number which was 92% of the maximum (177bpm) and I used that 177 number when time trialling. But a time trial was the only time I ever looked at heart rate in a race. Never used it any other time, because IT LIES, and I never wore it training. I sometimes would put the HRM on after racing to see how long it took for my heart rate to drop to normal (around 4 hours usually) and sometimes in the mornings when I woke up to check resting pulse. That is all.
A heart rate monitor has a very limited usefulness, heart rate is an unreliable measure of intensity and is no guide to fitness. Seriously mate, take it off and train without it for a while and see what happens. If you go backwards you can tell me Im an idiot and go back to what you were doing.
Here is my advice
1. Use perceived effort to vary your rides. Lots of rides should be at a low easy effort, just twiddling along at a nice cadence. When you finish the ride you should say to yourself "I dont feel like Ive even done anything today. I still feel fresh". Other rides can be moderate, and you can do some short intense ones, say 5 or 10 km really hard time trial pace ..or you can add in some little sprints between telegraph poles a couple of times during the ride. Variety is the key, variety of terrain, variety of length, variety of effort. Mix it up. And vary the places you hold on to the handle bars - tops, hoods, drops.
2. Be aware of technique. Good swimmers dont thrash the water, they glide. Good cyclists sit perfectly still on the bike, head neck and torso still, the legs go up and down effortlessly at a good cadence (80-100rpm). Dont push down violently on the pedals. Dont thrash, bob up and down, rock the hips. Change gears often to maintain that nice cadence and keep the chainrings turning like a flywheel.
I think that you already have a good feel for your perceived effort level. And I like the sounds of the rides you do during the week, the 2 longish flat easy ones, and the shorter one with some intervals. Just do them by perceived effort and trust yourself rather than the HRM. See how you go.
Cheers

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TrikeTragic
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Re: HR & wind direction.

Postby TrikeTragic » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:51 am

kenwstr wrote:I'm 60yo and 63 kg maybe a little heavier after Christmas.


I'm a 63 yo and I was 60 kg once...(maybe when I was 16) 8)

Cheers
Alan
BentCyclist

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andrewjcw
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Re: HR & wind direction.

Postby andrewjcw » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:45 am

Derny Driver wrote:Ken ... whatever you are doing or trying to do ...is pointless ...and useless. Stop it mate. Really. Take your monitor off and leave it at home.


I think that's a bit harsh. He said he's doing it for a month and only a couple of times a week amongst other stuff. 90 minute medium-hard efforts isn't a training paradigm that will set the world on fire but hardly seems pointless and useless either. At any rate the thread wasn't to ask for a critique of the training methodology.

g-boaf
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Re: HR & wind direction.

Postby g-boaf » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:22 pm

andrewjcw wrote:
Derny Driver wrote:Ken ... whatever you are doing or trying to do ...is pointless ...and useless. Stop it mate. Really. Take your monitor off and leave it at home.


I think that's a bit harsh. He said he's doing it for a month and only a couple of times a week amongst other stuff. 90 minute medium-hard efforts isn't a training paradigm that will set the world on fire but hardly seems pointless and useless either. At any rate the thread wasn't to ask for a critique of the training methodology.


He's not being harsh. He's giving pretty good advice.

90 minute medium hard efforts isn't setting the world on fire, so what does then?

You can pretty much get away with 60 minute training sessions if you do them hard enough, then allow rest and recovery to happen.

The OP is doing pretty well at 60 and 63kg, probably just a bit more structure needed, do the hard training sessions very hard, do the easy ones very easy.

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Derny Driver
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Re: HR & wind direction.

Postby Derny Driver » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:32 pm

I actually said i didnt disagree with the training rides. It was using a HRM that I questioned. I also apologised for being blunt but that Andrew didnt include that in his quote.

g-boaf
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Re: HR & wind direction.

Postby g-boaf » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:11 pm

Derny Driver wrote:I actually said i didnt disagree with the training rides. It was using a HRM that I questioned. I also apologised for being blunt but that Andrew didnt include that in his quote.


That's not you I'm saying that to, referring to Andrew. Too hard to quote things in a phone.

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Derny Driver
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Re: HR & wind direction.

Postby Derny Driver » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:59 pm

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