Endurance Training

The foundations for successful riding

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:14 pm

colafreak,

What is your current abilities and what improvements do you strive for?
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by BNA » Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:23 pm

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Postby sogood » Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:23 pm

colafreak wrote:Anywhere from 40 to 70 km straight riding (no stops) at a sustainable pace for the period. I.e. if I push any harder, I won't be able to sustain the pace for the duration of the ride.

Finally, dragged out a slightly better description of your "endurance training" after how many posts? :shock:

Ok, notice how the pros train? They establish their base in the off season and then do their high intensity training close to the start and at the start of the season to establish their peak. Doesn't that sound like what's happening with your recent hard short commutes? Yes, you feel that you are getting more "results", but it sounded like that you didn't realize what your "training rides" have done for you in the background. Just food for thought for you to think about. There's a load of science involved and the fact that different intensities would develop different aspects of your power performance envelope. I think that you need to gain some more understanding of it before discounting your "training rides".
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Postby colafreak » Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:25 pm

Current abilities, local crit practice race, D-Grade.

I'm not in "training", however as with anything, I want to get better.

In essence I ride for fitness, however if I'm going to ride for exercise, I want to be able to ride faster for longer than my friends :D



To be honest, I wasn't looking for advice, however if Alex and sogood are telling me I'm way off track, I truly want to know more. I don't know what the right question to ask is.

I'm not being stubborn, by this, I have no problems admitting I may have some misconceptions, as you can see.

I admit that I was a bit PO'd that sogood wanted to tell me I had "no idea", not elaborate and then say he was "only trying to help". But at the same time, if there is something I am missing, I really do want their (yours/anyone's) advice.
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Postby colafreak » Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:28 pm

sogood wrote: I think that you need to gain some more understanding of it before discounting your "training rides".

Sorry, I have tried to say this before, but I probably got caught up on other aspects. I should have been more clear, I'm not "discounting" them, otherwise like I said, I'd stop doing long rides at pace. Going back to the original comment, I was just (perhaps over)stating that the comparative benefit of my commute seems to be pretty high from what I can tell.
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Postby sogood » Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:54 pm

My suggestion would be for you to Google and read up on the writing of Andrew Coggan and the whole power training concept (note also that Alex is also a well known guru in this field). It is the most logical systematization of cycle training that I have come across and one that well defined the relationships b/n the levels of training and the physiological adaptation they induce. I think you'll have a completely different perspective once you've understood the basic concept.
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Postby sogood » Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:00 pm

colafreak wrote:I admit that I was a bit PO'd that sogood wanted to tell me I had "no idea", not elaborate and then say he was "only trying to help".

I never said that you had "no idea", I only said you were "lost". As the facts proved, you did get the concept wrong on VO2max for a start. And with that fundamental error, you were indeed lost in your understanding of the whole subject.
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Postby sogood » Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:12 pm

colafreak wrote:To be honest, I wasn't looking for advice, however if Alex and sogood are telling me I'm way off track, I truly want to know more. I don't know what the right question to ask is.

I'm not being stubborn, by this, I have no problems admitting I may have some misconceptions, as you can see.

You opened yourself up for discussion in an open forum with the following statements,

i reckon my commute is better training than my normal training

Thought process being that I push myself much harder on my commute, and due to the stop-start nature, it's like a half hour of HARD intervals, which in turn would increase my lactate threshold and therefore endurance.

Thoughts?

So I'd say that you were seeking comments/advice. But I am glad that subconsciously you have noted "stubborn" being relevant, even though you were openly refuting it.

Anyway, we can move back to topic and go back to endurance training. Fundamentally, your short hard commute "intervals" aren't the right form of training for endurance.
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Postby colafreak » Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:09 pm

Come on mate, I'm not trying to argue here. You've proved your point, I was wrong about vo2 max. All I've been asking is for something constructive, rather than telling me what I'm wrong about.

So...

sogood wrote: Fundamentally, your short hard commute "intervals" aren't the right form of training for endurance.


Is that based purely on the idea of specificity? Or that because one would assume (I dont' have a power meter) the power figures I'm targeting in my series of sprints to work are too much higher than what my longer ~1hr outputs would be?
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Postby sogood » Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:28 pm

colafreak wrote:
sogood wrote: Fundamentally, your short hard commute "intervals" aren't the right form of training for endurance.

Is that based purely on the idea of specificity? Or that because one would assume (I dont' have a power meter) the power figures I'm targeting in my series of sprints to work are too much higher than what my longer ~1hr outputs would be?

As commonly misconceived, power training concept does not need a power meter to understand or apply. You can always use PE (perceived exertion) as the reference. The nice thing about power training is that it's closely correlated with physiological activities at the cellular and molecular levels.

If you read a little on power training and the 7 levels of power, you'll understand that your short commute intervals were likely to be primarily targeting upper level power adaptation including VO2max and above. And less so on sustained power for endurance riding. You will feel "fit" for power bursts for obvious reasons ie. Sprinting power of sprinters. Going back to endurance riding, you want sustainable power which is energized differently at the cellular level, and 2x20 intervals is the fundamental training mode to extend this aspect of your performance. Given the stop start nature within your 30mins commute, it clearly isn't comparable with 2x20 training.
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Postby colafreak » Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:54 pm

Cheers. I don't have a chance to search right now, but I'm thinking that "7 levels of power" will help locate articles about what you're talking about.

Oh, one other thing, I use my heart rate monitor as my reference, but tend to avoid saying that as the standard response is "heart rate can vary due to health/temperature/time of day/curent stomach digestion levels/colour of undies/etc."

but I find it's pretty useful, nonetheless.
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Postby sogood » Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:28 pm

No, why don't you use the relevant terms mentioned earlier for your searches... "Andrew Coggan power training" :roll:

Don't forget to search this forum for similar terms and "HRM training". You'll find much has already been discussed.
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Postby toolonglegs » Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:38 pm

Too much to read hare already!...
Simple questions...are you improving in your racing doing what you are doing?.Whats letting you down?.
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Re: Endurance Training

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:01 pm

colafreak wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
colafreak wrote:Thoughts?

Train hard and smart and you'll improve.

I have no idea whether you are.


Of course, and I wouldn't expect you to know unless you actually trained with me, but I am interested in what you think potential benefits of training vo2 versus threshold are (or vice versa). Exactly what would be the difference in training style?

Well it sort of depends on what you mean.

If by training threshold or training VO2 Max, you mean a block of work with a heavy emphasis on riding at and around threshold, or a block with a heavy emphasis on riding at and around an intensity that induces VO2 Max, then there is quite a difference in what you can expect from such a training structure.

Doing either will lift your aerobic power, LT, VO2 Max and are beneficial.

However a block dedicated to a focus on VO2 Max really shouldn't be more than about 6-8 weeks long as improvements plateau and the intensity of such efforts by its very nature requires you to keep a lid on your volume.

On the other hand, it is possible to perform dedicated threshold work for many months, indeed for large chunks of the year and to see continual improvements.
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Postby Chuck » Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:29 pm

colafreak wrote:however if Alex and sogood are telling me I'm way off track


If Alex responds, great. He's pretty good with his time on here. The rest is just bluster :roll:
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Postby Hebden » Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:48 pm

I see a few people use their commute as interval or fartlek type training. If its a commute and your riding it say 5 days a week, that’s 10 sessions of intervals/fartlek per week! :shock:

Won't this just make you really good at doing intervals? Also if you can do them 5-10 times a week I would suspect that the intensity is a bit low to be classified as proper interval work.

I was under the impression that 1-2 interval session per week would be sufficient for most riders. Anymore and you are at risk of not being able to reach the intensity required for key sessions, due to fatigue, or you over train.

But I don't read as much as some... maybe I am wrong? :oops:
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Postby mikesbytes » Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:53 pm

Hebden wrote:I see a few people use their commute as interval or fartlek type training. If its a commute and your riding it say 5 days a week, that’s 10 sessions of intervals/fartlek per week! :shock:

Won't this just make you really good at doing intervals? Also if you can do them 5-10 times a week I would suspect that the intensity is a bit low to be classified as proper interval work.

I was under the impression that 1-2 interval session per week would be sufficient for most riders. Anymore and you are at risk of not being able to reach the intensity required for key sessions, due to fatigue, or you over train.

But I don't read as much as some... maybe I am wrong? :oops:


Hadn't heard of fartlek before, so I looked it up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fartlek

Running example
* Warmup: easy running for 5 to 10 minutes.
* Steady, hard speed for 1.5–2 km; like a long repetition.
* Recovery: rapid walking for about 5 minutes.
* Start of speed work: easy running interspersed with sprints of about 50–60 m, repeated until a little tired.
* Easy running with three or four "quick steps" now and then (simulating suddenly speeding up to avoid being overtaken by another runner).
* Full speed uphill for 175–200 m.
* Fast pace for 1 minute.
* The whole routine is then repeated until the total time prescribed on the training schedule has elapsed.


So to relate this to bike commute example, based on my former Ashfield - Chatswood route.
* Warmup - Largely downhill for the first couple of K
* Steady, hard speed - flat along Hawthorne canal and other parts
* Recovery - waiting at traffic lights
* Speed work - light sync sprinting, shaking off cling-ons of unknown riding ability, riding home with Toff
* Easy riding - busy locations, such as CBD and Pyrmont
* Full speed uphill - gun it up the hills and there's plenty of them on that route
* Fast pace for 1 minute - plenty of that
* The whole routine is then repeated - mmm, need to get myself another contract at Chatswood.
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