Perceived Efforts...

The foundations for successful riding

Perceived Efforts...

Postby toolonglegs » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:10 am

Just wondering if any one has come across a good description for this.
Until I get my power meter I need to get a good idea at where I should be...HR is too all overt he place...
At the moments my 60-120mins are at either 90% percieved FTP ...hard but with steady breath and at a pace I can sustain for an hour to two.
20 mins are at 100%...couldn't talk to someone while doing them.
5 mins at 120% leave me shattered,only do them on climbs and can only handle 2 or 3 with a couple of minutes in between.

How much easier would a power meter make life...I am getting sick of hearing about people flying on 8 or less hours a week!!!.
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by BNA » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:18 am

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Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:18 am

It's all about assimilating with the Borg.
The Borg scale that is :lol:

Google Borg PE scale.

Adescription of PE is also given in this item on power levels:
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/ ... evels.aspx
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Postby sogood » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:50 am

2Legs: Maybe SST is your friend. Supposedly it's magical but far less stressful. ;)
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Postby toolonglegs » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:29 pm

SST?
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Postby othy » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:50 pm

toolonglegs wrote:SST?


Sweet Spot Training.
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Postby toolonglegs » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:01 pm

So what would SST involve?...
Good link thanks Alex...helps a lot.

Trying to organise my weekly training now that I am racing most Sat's...I miss night races but I suppose it makes it easier to sort out the week!.Trying to adapt this training between racing program to work for myself.

Saturday race....(if it is less than 2 hours then do a 30 minute non stop 100% FTP ride home,...but often not possible because 50% of races will too far away.

Sunday..group ride/cyclo sportive/solo ..some hard work...haven't found a decent group ride yet,cyclosportives will probably be too hard and not that often,maybee once a month...aiming at 3-4 hours at tempo for at least two hours of those.Probably isn't a great training ride but is good to clear the head,lose some kilos and see some hard work in the mountains.

EAT!!!!!!!! SLEEP!!!!!

Monday...Active Recovery, 45-60minutes..walk on bike,actually I would walk but find an hour on the bike easier!.

Tuesday...VO2 max x 3 intervals of 5 minutes (can't manage them yet but I am trying!)....then ride easy for 20..then do 2 X 20 at 95-100% FTP

Wednesday....tempo 90 minutes...go home and EAT!

Thursday....recovery ride...60 minutes with recovery the aim...all on flat ground but adding a couple of very short efforts.

Friday....60 minutes max. 2 x 2 minutes at VO2 max....1 X 10 at 95% FTP...3 X 15 seconds of in the saddle small ring sprints...no fatigue.

13-15 hours per week...time to forget about bike journal :roll: as km are not important.

The club has a Tues & Thu night training program...not sure what it involves,yes I know it probably won't be ideal (and will be hard to organise to get to with kids) as I will be one of the strongest riders there and may have to wait around too much...but if it is good I might try to get there on tuesdays.
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Postby sogood » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:09 pm

I like this chart in gaining an understanding of SST.

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It's training at a level that optimises the effort level/volume with outcome. In other words, it's the training you have when you don't want to kill yourself. ;)

Anyway, that's my simplistic understanding and I am sure Alex has more to add.

And I agree with you. BikeJournal type of tarmac bashing is only one parameter. Better training efficiency can be had by taking into account of other parameters.
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Postby toolonglegs » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:17 pm

Well I spose I spend a lot of time in that oval....certainly the higher ends of it.
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Postby toolonglegs » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:45 am

This is tough!!!

Tuesday...VO2 max x 3 intervals of 5 minutes (can't manage them yet but I am trying!)....then ride easy for 20..then do 2 X 20 at 95-100% FTP

Breakdown of this ride...my head is spinning!.

1hour 39min, HR 139av 170mx,51km,Av Speed 30.9kmph,Rolling Terrain.

Breakdown....

Warm Up 13 min HR 103av Mx 120
1st Effort 3.21 min HR 154av 162mx (I actually vomited on this one...!)
Rest 2.33 min
2nd Effort 5.07 min HR 157av 162mx
Rest 3.02 min
3rd Effort 4.30 min HR 162av 170mx
Rest 10.12 min
1st 20m 20.26 min HR 155av 165mx Av speed 35kmph (slight headwind)
Rest 11.20 min
2nd 20m 21.16 min HR 157av 165mx Av speed 34.1kmph (stronger headwind)
Warm Down 4 min

Interestingly but not suprisingly I suppose....the heart rate on the VO2 Max efforts is about the same as the 20's but the perceived effort involved was hugely different.Plus ate way too close to riding!....hence the vomiting....not really up to true VO2 efforts yet but certainly can see these efforts helping when it comes to racing!.
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Postby sogood » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:57 am

Didn't think that putting short intervals and 2x20 in the same session is a good idea. If there's enough energy, then do 2x30 or 3x20. For short intervals, just keep repeating until there's no more energy or stop when the power has dropped off significantly (10% I've read). Obviously it'll needs to be gauged by other means without a PM.
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Postby toolonglegs » Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:30 am

I am doing them to improve my all out but short efforts in a race...if I only ever do 20's at 90-100% FTP then surely I won't improve my efforts over 100%...say at 115-140% FTP?.
If I just do VO2 max efforts I would be finished after 35 minutes even doing 5 by 5 minutes with 2-3 minutes in between.
I have been doing at least 2 x 20's plus a 1 x 10's at 90-100% FTP for a few months now at least twice a week.
Hence I am doing them early in the week after a very easy day....saying that it was obviously too hard for me to mantain good 3 by 5's today....but it will come.
PS...I had no trouble mantaining the 20's today.
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Postby sogood » Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:26 am

But my understanding is, short interval repeats should be repeated until there's a significant power drop or when you can do no more. Even if it only lasted 30mins for the whole session, there's no point in tagging a sub-optimal 2x20 after it. If you can do an optimal 2x20 after it, then you didn't go hard enough or do enough repeats in those short intervals. In other words, each day/session should be well defined and focused. Further, those high intensity short intervals should only be done when well rested, when one is capable of reaching the limits.
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Postby toolonglegs » Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:48 am

Might have to get a coaches view on that....my aim was to do some max efforts but not to fatigue myself too much...then rest and do the 20's...90% ftp is pretty easy to sustain for 20min...I was closer to 95 I think today.

My aim is to train hard but short so that I am ready for the real max efforts come saturday.
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Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:18 am

Not that I'm doing any coaching, but....

1. There's nothing particularly wrong with a session combining TT level effort(s) and VO2Max level efforts (I've done similar myself recently). Whether or not it makes sense to do that for any particular individual's workout is another matter though.

2. If you are struggling to complete efforts (i.e. you crack before the set duration is completed), then, assuming you are healthy, either:
- you are doing them too hard
- you are overly fatigued for that session

3. HR during a VO2Max level effort is typically a pretty poor guide.
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Postby sogood » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:28 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:1. There's nothing particularly wrong with a session combining TT level effort(s) and VO2Max level efforts (I've done similar myself recently). Whether or not it makes sense to do that for any particular individual's workout is another matter though.

Mixing TT effort and VO2max is just like a race isn't it? A hodge podge mix of everything. More fun but less targeted, right?

My understanding is that with structured training, one tries to segment and target a particular aspect of one's fitness for any particular session. Through distribution of differing sessions over the week and month that one completes the full training package.
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Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:51 pm

sogood wrote:My understanding is that with structured training, one tries to segment and target a particular aspect of one's fitness for any particular session.
Not necessarily. There is nothing in the rule book that says one should only do "Level 4 or Level 5" on any given day.

Most physiological adaptations occur as a continuum along the intensity scale. Indeed, replicating race like efforts in training is a pretty specific way to train at appropriate times.

For instance, some of my sessions might combine a focus on MAP/VO2Max and Anaerobic Work Capacity. At other times I wouldn't combine them.

I have used a killer indoor workout that combines sweet spot at 90% FTP and neuromuscular power with 15-sec efforts every few minutes (the "hour of power"). And another one that does efforts at 90% of FTP, 5-min max and 1-min max power respectively.

Again, that's not to say that it is the right thing to do at all times.

I have no great argument about the overall structure and using specific days with a particular focus (and that forms the basis of a sound training plan), but it doesn't mean the training has to be one-dimensional.
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Postby sogood » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:04 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:I have no great argument about the overall structure and using specific days with a particular focus (and that forms the basis of a sound training plan), but it doesn't mean the training has to be one-dimensional.

No contest on mixed session if that's in preparation for an upcoming event. Makes perfect sense.

But going back to the objectives of interval sessions. Isn't it true that a good interval session is one that's continued until one is exhausted (referenced by a power drop of 5-10%), and that one should be well rested for a short interval session? So the question is (for routine training), what's the point of doing a few of this and a few of that? Doesn't that defeats the basic principle of interval training?
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Postby toolonglegs » Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:26 pm

Well in the end it was not such a good workout....because I have strained something :roll: behind my left knee.

I think my problem with the 5 mins was that A- I had eaten too close to riding, B- I had not raised my intensity enough for the first one ...hence I blew chunks and then struggled with the next one.
But I had recovered plenty to do very hard 20's.
Yes heart rate was only there for interests sake,it was done on peceived effort.
I was definately slightly fatigued at the start....I had a very hard weekend (2 hours race sat, at least 3 hours very hard Sun).... but then I am always fatigued by some amount...the only way I would be fully rested is to have 2 or more likely 3 days off (which i may have to do now anyway with my hamstring pull).
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Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:09 pm

sogood wrote:Isn't it true that a good interval session is one that's continued until one is exhausted (referenced by a power drop of 5-10%)

A good interval session is one that achieves the purpose for which it is intended. That does not necessarily imply that the power will drop during the course of such training.

However if power does drop to that extent, then that is the signal to cease the workout and cool down.
sogood wrote:and that one should be well rested for a short interval session?
One should be not be overly fatigued. That is not the same as being well rested.

I think people get caught in the trap of making intervals as hard as they can manage. While efforts like that have their place, it is quite often a counter productive approach.
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Postby toolonglegs » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:42 am

Good result today...rode out my driveway and bumped into the local club rolling past,I knew one of the guys so chatted / rolled with them for 15 minutes or so then said bye bye....built the pace up for 5 minutes and then started on a 90minute tempo ride at about 90% FTP...rear of knee/ top of calf was a bit worrying for a while and I nearly pulled the pin but decided to push thru...after a while it started feeling good as did everything else so I probably ended up pushing a bit hard for the last 20 minutes...oh well no real way of knowing with out a power meter...but felt really good after so that was a plus.
Saying that I did substitute my 3 x 5 minutes VO2 workout for a tempo ride today...just couldn't face it :lol: ...but I have just manage to find the course for saturdays race and it looks a bit bumpy even thou it is only a 4.5km circuit...so I will visit it for efforts tommorow and then some nice rest :D .
The problem I am finding with these harder efforts / less time in the saddle is I want to do too much as I feel like I am not riding very much..I like that!.
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Postby RobRollin » Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:57 am

Just a quick note, some useful information on this site including info on perceived efforts. Also training methods etc.

I am using the RTS training program and findiing my overall performance increasing, especially my hill climbing.

http://www.cptips.com/trnoptn.htm
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Postby toolonglegs » Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:25 pm

Ta Rob,I will check it out...but must admit when I see lines like this "1 day LONG slow recovery ride" I don't think it will be for me...LONG rides are not recovery rides!.
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Re: Perceived Efforts...

Postby RobRollin » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:42 am

Hey toolong, no problems, take what information you can use. The nutrition information is what I was looking at. I am using a SST training program, but using the nutrition info.

An interesting note, this morning I did a 10.84k training ride, usually I avg 31-33kmh, fastest time 10.84k is 19mins 4 seconds. This morning I headed out for a casual ride without using my HRM or Computer, I completed the ride in 21mins 9 seconds. I rode how I felt. Now I know I can go faster than 19mins 4 seconds if I put more into the ride. (warning note there are intersections and bicycle gates to go through which are dangerous at speed)
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Re: Perceived Efforts...

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:20 am

Today is a day when I hope my percievement :wink: was wrong.
Like most days I tape up my HRM as it puts me off while doing efforts and I have a brief look at the laps after the rides.
On the cards for today was 3 times 20 minutes at 90-95 guesstimated FTP.Took a long while to warm up....hmmm number 1...but that was fine as I thought I had figured out where the course was for Saturdays race.Usually this is very hard but because Sats race is in a tiny village and I know the course is 9.25km per lap it was easy to work out the only road possible on MapMyRide that could be a 9.25km loop.The next difficulty is working out clockwise or anti...but think I got that right as there is a 1km climb to the town and cant see them going the other way...a bit hard working out the finish line but have a rough guess where it is.So I headed of to a nearby mountain to do my first 20...sometimes the only way I can do my first is on a climb as it is easier to push yourself.So 20 minute climb up to a beautiful view at what felt like a very good pace...paced a beautiful bottom in short short knicks and was tempted to do some French practice but a "Bonjour" was all I managed with out passing out!.SO from the top I rolled back down a different way....the beauty of France in this area are the literally hundreds of different routes available.Gently rolled back to the bottom of the climb for Sats race and hit it hard....cool can handle it in a 53/24 so a 11-23 cassette will be sweet for race day...and kept on going for a full lap,at the bottom of the climb 9km later for the 2nd time I spy a rider 3/4 the way up..incentive to hammer even harder..hmmm not really a 95% effort but will do to finish up 20min number 2.Button off just before catching the guy at the top of the climb as don't want to look like a dick passing him and then pulling up.So roll past him and a friendly "Bonjour"...see even on a week day at 4pm there are always a few riders around.He says hello back and then jumps on my wheel :roll: ..I think the French think it is as natural as Gitanes and Pastis.SO I hit the next gentle climb hard..still there....hit the next rise a bit harder..still there....so I roll at a good clip for about 5km with him half wheeling me...grrr.Finally he sprints past me...I leave his wheel alone and sit about 50 meters behind matching his pace while he does everything he can to drop me.You can tell this because he is in the drops peeking underneath every minute or so to see if I am gone :lol: ...finally he lets up the pace and I roll past again...bang magnet affect...so into a good head wind I up the pace gently until I am hurting like a dog.But of course I don't look behind because I don't want it known that I am hurting and looking behind will give the game away....especially if he is on my wheel!...so I keep this up for 10km's till the next town,of course at a stop sign it is OK to look behind to check for cars :wink: ...ha...he is nearly out of site behind me....blown and following a bus like me into a headwind...oh the shame :D .So I am slightly tired so decide to roll the last 20 minutes home...I suppose the last effort can count for 20min number 3.Matey boy is history so it is just me and the beautiful countryside...when out comes a tractor of a side road 100 meters ahead of me...I can never let those opportunites go by!!!..ever!!!....tractors rock for motorpacing and this one winds up to 50kmph into the wind...sweet...effort number 4 last about 15 minutes and definately hurts.Finally I turn off and head for home....get home and get off the bike....ouch my legs feel sore....hmmm number 2.THen check out my HRM laps...Hmmm number 3...OK I was pushing it but the last 3 efforts had and average heart rate of 178,182 and the last 15 minutes at 186.Now that is at least 10-15 BPM higher than it should be!.Well 90minutes later..all the joints hurt,have to lie down and feel like crap!....I think I am getting what the kids have....and knowing my body pretty well I know that when I get sick after such a killer training ride it hits me hard!.
Fingers crossed my thighs are sore because I laid a new floor yesterday.
My joints hurt because I stood up yesterday and stabbed the corner of a window fair into my ribs and nearly killed myself.
My head feels crap because my sinus is bad with all the pollen!....fingers crossed!.
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Re: Perceived Efforts...

Postby Deanj » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:22 pm

Got no idea what your doing training wise, but reading through your reports is there a chance your doing to many hard efforts and trashing yourself also with the racing?
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