The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

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g-boaf
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby g-boaf » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:04 pm

Not done trainerroad, but have done others. If you are committed and methodical they can work well.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby g-boaf » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:54 pm

Image
2/4/6/8/10min with some 430w bits at the start of each of them.

and

Image

I started to feel like I was going to cramp up on the start of the fourth block, that's the dip. Otherwise ok.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby RobertL » Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:54 pm

Ok – I’ve dipped my toes into the waters of a training program recently, and I’m after some advice.

I don’t have a power meter or HR monitor, so I looked online for training plans that use perceived effort, and found some at www.bicycling.com/training/fitness/your-training-plans. I followed their “Your big race” plan in the lead up to the Brisbane to Gold Coast ride in October.

It’s a typical sort of training plan from what I can tell – days with longer 20 minute efforts at threshold; other days with 5 minute efforts at “Max”; scheduled rest days, all building up to a big race and so on.

I definitely improved over that 8 week period, however, I was starting from a lowish base. Basically, I’ve only been riding “seriously” for the last couple of years and I’m steadily getting faster, fitter and less fat. So I can’t really tell if my improvement recently is because I followed an 8 week training plan or I’m just improving in general. Either way – I’m happy.

I’m very fortunate that I live 10 minutes ride from a criterium track, so I can easily go there and do whatever workout I want without interruption. I often do this by extending my afternoon commute and doing laps. This sometimes means that I’m on my flatbar commuter bike, with panniers, so I get some funny looks sometimes.

The other thing that I’ve discovered is that I love doing laps! I know that some people find it boring, but I love circulating around for 5 x 5 minutes or 2 x 20 minutes or whatever.

I also do a couple of group rides a week, and incorporated them into my training schedule. And my standard commute is about 30 minutes each way, so it makes a reasonable recovery ride.

So my quandary is what to do from here onwards.

Is training solely by perceived exertion worth it? I know that training using power is the gold standard, but surely lots of cyclists over lots of years have gotten pretty good just going by feel?

I could buy a power meter, but then I’d be limited to training on that bike, which would hinder my commuter-training routine and might make me do less overall.

I could buy a HR monitor which I could use on each bike that I ride, but would that be worth it? Would it actually actually make much difference compared to just going by perceived effort?

Also, do I need to follow someone else’s training plan, or can I just make my own? For example, I noticed that the plan I followed has no short interval work. No 1 minute intervals, or 40/20s or sprints.

So can I just come up with my own schedule and some some longer and shorter intervals each week?

Just how structured and scientific do I have to be to get good results?
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby g-boaf » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:06 am

HR is not bad, you can use it in place of other metrics. Then you can work to the heart rate zones.

Just make sure you know what your maximum HR is, then work out the zones from that. I sometimes do that. I have one bike with a power meter, but I don't always ride that bike.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby biker jk » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:15 am

RichB wrote:
jules21 wrote:you've got to take Zwift with a grain of salt though. easy to drop weight on Zwift. also it obviously doesn't adjust for PM error. you need to enjoy it for what it is, rather than compare yourself with others.


Very easy and too tempting for some, coincidentally I've never bumped into so many sub-65kg people in my life.

I compare current results with old, and also gauge how I'm going against usual suspects in the races though I don't put too much in that either tbh. I generally ignore anybody these days if I don't know them or haven't raced them previously.


Yes, an interesting video to highlight the point.


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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby g-boaf » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:19 am

The key thing with Zwift is really to ignore what the others are doing, just do your own sessions/workouts as you want to do them. And then you'll be totally unaffected by people putting in too light weights for themselves.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby g-boaf » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:18 pm

A little under three hour ride today, on a Monday... Quite unusual. Felt like it. Interesting riding conditions with those solid wind gusts.

And getting back home before dark, better still.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby g-boaf » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:10 am

No trainer rides in a long while, but stacking up the road kms - fun 85km ride last night, pretty quick too.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby g-boaf » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:46 pm

I did a 5x5 last week, but no specific training aside from that. Just riding. Easier week last week.

This week also some shorter rides. Must be doing something right, my average speeds are increasing. What used to be a very quick ride for me is now becoming quite consistent.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby RobertL » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:30 am

Did my first Wednesday Watt Bomb* session yesterday. It's a 30 minute simulated crit/fast paceline session at the local crit track. I loved it!

* not my choice of name.
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby march83 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:40 pm

currently stuck in a rut...

I'm riding ~450km a week.

I'm not that tired because I'm not doing much intensity. I'm not doing intensity because I don't want to get tired. I'm not taking days off because that would mean I have to drive to work and eat less. I'm not progressing because I'm not overloading.

It's not really a problem, it's just an interesting situation I've found myself in. I should probably try to squeeze the odd race in and do a bit more intensity on the weekends or something just to change things up...
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby g-boaf » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:01 pm

march83 wrote:currently stuck in a rut...

I'm riding ~450km a week.

I'm not that tired because I'm not doing much intensity. I'm not doing intensity because I don't want to get tired. I'm not taking days off because that would mean I have to drive to work and eat less. I'm not progressing because I'm not overloading.

It's not really a problem, it's just an interesting situation I've found myself in. I should probably try to squeeze the odd race in and do a bit more intensity on the weekends or something just to change things up...


Sounds like you just don't have enough time. Maybe you do need to do higher intensity and then have a day off to compensate or do an easy ride on the off day to avoid the heavy legs. 450km a week is a decent amount if you are also working full time. It can just end up being ride more, but then the time has to come from somewhere, usually at the expense of sleep and then you end up like a zombie the next day.

Maybe the other solution is doing very hard interval sessions for 90 minutes and a few of those per week.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby g-boaf » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:09 pm

I haven't done any trainer rides in quite a while. Did one today to avoid the threatening weather - 4x10min with short recovery times in between them in a 60 minute session. Set some PRs and fairly happy with that.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby thatmdee » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:38 am

I'm just about to start the last week of Sweet Spot Base - Mid Volume II in TrainerRoad.

I'm pretty happy with my progress. I think I've assessed properly, and have found some of the workouts challenging -- especially coming toward the end of Base phase. I'm assuming it will ramp up further from here once I go into General Build. I don't have any particular goals, or events in mind, I'm not sure what 'type' of cyclist I am, and I just want to improve fitness -- so I think I'll go to General Build next.

It has been very psychological, with internal monologue and telling myself I want to bail, particularly when around 2/3 - 3/4 of the way through a workout. I've never bailed though, and managed to hit target power without issue or cadence slipping.

On rest days, I try to add in some low to aerobic level works (Taku, Lazy Mountain, Baxter etc) which I think helps a little. I've also been trying to add in foam rolling to help recovery, but should probably focus primarily on stretching first.

I find with some workouts, such as longer sweet spot intervals, threshold intervals, that it can be a little difficult to ride in the mornings fasted. Having a little sugar (a gel, some mango slices, a banana, etc) does seem to help. I am a little concerned though about becoming sugar adapted.

I've also found the TrainerRoad podcast to be great to listen to, as I slowly find my feet.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby g-boaf » Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:31 pm

I did a ride down to Camden, then across to Warragamba Dam lookout, then back through Razorback, Douglas Park and Picton.

Sadly my Garmin 800 died about 9km from Picton. I guess it is time to retire it, the battery is obviously finished :(

Nice ride though. :)

thatmdee: you shouldn't really be doing intense workouts fasted. It just saps your energy and then after it you'll probably binge out in heaps for breakfast.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby BugsBunny » Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:09 pm

I've been off the bike for 2-3 months due to illness and have been easing back into it this past week.

I've put on a few kgs since then and did a few 8 min FTP type sessions to see where I'm at.

Power is down from about 3.2x w/kg to 2.9x. And clearly between intervals the heart rate wouldn't drop much. Usually between intervals HR would drop below 130 but I've noticed it wouldn't dip below 150. Cardio fitness seems the first to go, whilst the muscles/sprint power feels more or less the same as before.

Looking at ways to get my fitness back and I might need to start from Base Training 1 with TrainerRoad and a new/lower FTP to ease back in.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby thatmdee » Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:08 am

I've just finished Sweet Spot Base - Mid Volume II in TrainerRoad. I'm going to start the General build phase this week, so -- tomorrow is my next FTP test.

I'm trying to really hone in and improve my testing, ensuring I achieve a maximal steady state and get the most accurate result. Here is my last FTP test: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/that ... e-ftp-test

In the last test, those power drops were due to me having issues with shifting (never ending problems with my bike!). I noticed during slope mode intervals within the FTP test, I tend to go big chain ring, and about half way up the cassette -- spinning at around 100 rpm.

I'm unsure if this is ideal. I haven't really seen people mention this elsewhere, but would it be worth considering adjusting the slope mode % upwards during an FTP test, and spin in a lower gear? I believe the slope intervals are around 3%, but not sure if I should leave this alone and instead rely purely on shifting and a self-selected cadence. It seems if the slope mode is increased, it becomes more of a hill climb, at which point the result is skewed -- as I thought FTP tests should be done on fairly flat road.

I'm also still trying to work out a pacing strategy. My last 20 minute interval was 227w (x 0.95 = 215w FTP). I thought I read a 2-3% increase is fairly typical between phases. If I aim for a 2% increase, I'll try and average 1.02 x 227w = 231w average for the 20 minute interval.. Then, depending on how I feel, make micro-adjustments up/down a couple of watts around that number.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby cerb » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:44 pm

thatmdee wrote:In the last test, those power drops were due to me having issues with shifting (never ending problems with my bike!). I noticed during slope mode intervals within the FTP test, I tend to go big chain ring, and about half way up the cassette -- spinning at around 100 rpm.

I'm unsure if this is ideal. I haven't really seen people mention this elsewhere, but would it be worth considering adjusting the slope mode % upwards during an FTP test, and spin in a lower gear? I believe the slope intervals are around 3%, but not sure if I should leave this alone and instead rely purely on shifting and a self-selected cadence. It seems if the slope mode is increased, it becomes more of a hill climb, at which point the result is skewed -- as I thought FTP tests should be done on fairly flat road.

I'm also still trying to work out a pacing strategy. My last 20 minute interval was 227w (x 0.95 = 215w FTP). I thought I read a 2-3% increase is fairly typical between phases. If I aim for a 2% increase, I'll try and average 1.02 x 227w = 231w average for the 20 minute interval.. Then, depending on how I feel, make micro-adjustments up/down a couple of watts around that number.


Looks like you're going well! The power drops weren't during your actual test interval, so that's a bonus. :)

As you reference slope mode, I assume you're on a smart trainer. I find the best thing is to dial in your gearing/power output before testing. As an example, I know that for an 8min test I want to target 390W, so I put the trainer in slope mode and adjust the resistance until I can put out 390W in a gear where my cadence matches my natural cadence at FTP of around 103rpm. I then leave the bike in the same gear and switch back to Erg mode and start the test. The trainer then just runs you through the warmup without needing to change gears or resistance. When the FTP interval starts, i'm already in the right gear and resistance setting for my target power and I then primarily concentrate on maintaining my cadence - as this keeps me on power.

I'm not aware of any requirement to do an FTP test on either the flat or up a hill - it is purely a measure of how hard you can go for 8 or 20mins. I expect this is more related to the fact that roads are unlikely to have a consistent uphill gradient and therefore the effective resistance changes as you climb and it's harder to stay on your power target. Either way, on the trainer you want to configure the resistance so that you can pedal at your target power somewhere very close to your natural cadence.

Pacing wise, you look to have done the last test well. The effort is fairly consistent with a slight rise for the last 3mins or so - meaning you probably could have gone slightly harder for the duration. Having said that, the worst thing you can do it go out too hard!

2-3% increase between phases is what TR generally recommend, but people obviously can to better or worse depending on how trained and/or fatigued they are. I think you've hit the nail on the head that if you aim for that, you can make minor adjustments as you go along. However, based on you having a bit of spare energy at the end of the last test, I reckon you go for 3% increase instead of 2%...


NOTE: I also listen in to the TR podcasts as my primary source of coaching information, so may be a bit of an echo chamber for you..! haha

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby cerb » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:12 pm

Crit season has now finished here and I didn't end up posting very much due to work & kids.

I tried going through this season with a different approach to the past 3-4 years - I basically did Zwift racing and my own sessions in Zwift. My own sessions were "non-structured", but were still riding for a purpose - i.e. concentrating on sprints, TT efforts, or TT eforts with depleted sprints at the end. I typically make these sessions up depending on where I think i'm currently lacking and they certainly aren't as structured as TR workouts.

So how did it work out?

- I started the season slow (as usual) due to lack of off-season and pre-season training.
- I came into decent form around mid/late November and held on to this until late January and was hitting new power PR's for everything from peak power through to 1hour power. I could ride good position in races, but lacked any actual results.
- By the end of the season (now), my numbers are still good, but my on-road racing has been average for the past month and I've struggled to hold on in the tough windy races with small fields at the tail end of the season (note: my Zwift racing was excellent though - with a podium in almost every race).

I think other factors have been at play and it's therefore hard to compare season to season. This year, I've been contending with very little sleep due to baby #2 waking up a couple of times a night, every night. I've stepped up and am now GM where I work, so have had a lot of additional stresses from work. I'm also renovating my house and have had to temporarily relocate during construction.... With all this in mind, the level of non-cycling related stresses & reduced sleep are certain to have negatively impacted my performance.

As such, I think my overall performance has been pretty good using Zwift (only) as my key training tool. However, I do draw on the past ~4 years of TrainerRoad workouts, programs and podcasts in order to do my own non-structured sessions in zwift.

Further, as I only get to race once a week, I've found the Zwift races to be a great tool for getting some solid race efforts in. I find the Zwift races typically have me at close to threshold for the duration and provide over-under style efforts that are more enjoyable than doing them in TR. Also, i've always been a bit of a nerd so the 'gamification' of cycling is a bit of extra fun for me too.

Last night, I had my first full night of sleep since November, so things are looking up. All considered, i'm fairly happy with this years results, so plan to keep Zwifting through Winter and (as usual) hope to carry some better fitness into next season.

I reckon i'll solely stick with Zwift for another race season and work out after that whether I go back to TR, or work in a combination of both!

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby thatmdee » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:15 pm

Thanks for the response!.. And a timely response.

I just started general build phase, and did a 20 minute FTP test this morning: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/that ... e-ftp-test

Yes, I'm on a smart trainer (Tacx Neo). My new result is 229w up from 215w. I noticed this time, during the 5 minute and 20 minute intervals, the slope mode was set to 15%.. I didn't change anything (the intensity was just set at 100%), and noticed the workout text still references going to 3% in slope mode.

My only guess is they changed the % in the workout, but the text wasn't updated. I did find myself grinding a little more compared to the last test, but having said that, my cadence was an average of 94 RPM for the 20 minute interval, which is much more inline with my self-selected cadence (93-97 RPM depending), rather than the 100+ I did for the last test.

So a 14w increase.. I'm guessing partly due to increased fitness (14w seems like a fairly significant increase during the base phase, apparently increases are most common during build?), and maybe due to a lower cadence (94 RPM) more closely representing my self-selected cadence.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby cerb » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:39 pm

Well done - solid improvement and nice minor power adjustment along the way!

The lower cadence isn't really an issue - I think of faster cadence as moving some of the stress away from the muscles and onto the aerobic system. Of course, to do this, the aerobic system needs to be able to handle the stress... Being able to ride at a higher cadence means that the muscles should fatigue more slowly and you can stay on power for longer. 94rpm also isn't considered particularly low - generally anything 90-110rpm is considered to be a good cadence to ride at.

I've been working on extending my time at FTP and therefore bringing my actual 1-hour power closer to my FTP. Have now got my 1-hour power within 8% of my FTP. I do find that I can ride at 100-105rpm for the first 40mins or so, but after that, I tend to be grinding it out at closer to 95rpm... I guess it's all due to fatigue and my aerobic system running out of gas!

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby Derny Driver » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:35 pm

Took young DD for a 75 minute motorpace yesterday, average speed 41kph. He is returning to training after 2 years off the bike. Hes been doing 200k a week on his own for 6 weeks now. We will start doing some serious training from now on.
We will use the tried and tested methods which have worked in the past ...motorpacing, track work on the velodrome, occasional long hilly rides, regular racing. We may lash out and buy a powermeter this year if he decides to do some NRS races.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby you cannot be sirrus » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:46 pm

First post in this thread, but I've been reading it for a while. Started my training for the AGF in Lorne this morning with a 30 minute tempo effort on the trainer (30m (AT) 203W). I normally ride after work but with the end of DLS I need to get into the habit of riding before work so the hardest part was getting up and on the bike before coffee and breakfast. As a self employed tradie I hate riding before work for fear of a mechanical making me late and upsetting my customers, at least with a trainer ride that isn't an issue. I just need to discipline myself for having everything ready to go the night before and just getting up and straight into it. Luckily I'm in my quiet season at the moment which helps.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby Rex » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:30 pm

march83 wrote:currently stuck in a rut...

I'm riding ~450km a week.

I'm not that tired because I'm not doing much intensity. I'm not doing intensity because I don't want to get tired. I'm not taking days off because that would mean I have to drive to work and eat less. I'm not progressing because I'm not overloading.

It's not really a problem, it's just an interesting situation I've found myself in. I should probably try to squeeze the odd race in and do a bit more intensity on the weekends or something just to change things up...


I do similar km's to you and in order to keep that up while including fast bunch rides and indoor Ergo intervals for my intensity I have to do ultra-recovery commutes home (approx 26km) so I don't accumulate any fatigue. Sit on about 150-170w for an hour and just potter home.
This works well, but if I'm ultra-fatigued then even this will fatigue me further so I need the time off.
I also put a lot more effort into my diet and recovery than I ever used to which makes an incredible difference. I'm nearly 41 so I don't recover as well as some of the younger lads in our team.

I now race less (last year it was pretty much every weekend), less bunch rides (as some were just junk miles) and really focus on quality and my form now is better than it was last year when I tried to do everything with a coach.

Regarding the discussion on the last page about genetics etc... awesome points and I couldn't agree more.
Some a certainly better genetically pre-disposed to cycling than others, but I too acknowledge my limits, understand I'll never be NRS but in my circle and where I race - I'm happy with my progress and where I sit and of course enjoy it so it's all good.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby g-boaf » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:32 pm

thatmdee wrote:Thanks for the response!.. And a timely response.

I just started general build phase, and did a 20 minute FTP test this morning: https://www.trainerroad.com/career/that ... e-ftp-test

Yes, I'm on a smart trainer (Tacx Neo). My new result is 229w up from 215w. I noticed this time, during the 5 minute and 20 minute intervals, the slope mode was set to 15%.. I didn't change anything (the intensity was just set at 100%), and noticed the workout text still references going to 3% in slope mode.

My only guess is they changed the % in the workout, but the text wasn't updated. I did find myself grinding a little more compared to the last test, but having said that, my cadence was an average of 94 RPM for the 20 minute interval, which is much more inline with my self-selected cadence (93-97 RPM depending), rather than the 100+ I did for the last test.

So a 14w increase.. I'm guessing partly due to increased fitness (14w seems like a fairly significant increase during the base phase, apparently increases are most common during build?), and maybe due to a lower cadence (94 RPM) more closely representing my self-selected cadence.


That's alright indeed. :) Pretty decent increase.

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