The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

[singlespeedscott]

I tried to pedal 53/19 and it just felt too high to spin, but I'm not sure if I'll get much love trying to go 39/19 instead. I'm so unsteady it wouldn't be much worse though.

Try a fixed gear or track bike. I've heard their easier on rollers.

[Xplora]

Will need to get Boaf to have a go at the rollers if we need a track bike!

I survived a short 20 minutes wiht 3 200W 5min intervals (couldn't get it up to 300W easily) yesterday. My experiences are in the rollers thread. Really concerning how poor my form is. Oh well. It's improving.

Smashed out 50kms with a couple mates today in the morning, managed to get some spinning practice riding home as well, which was encouraging. Just finished my best workout on the weights. 19000kgs. Trying to improve my technique and resilience to the double kettlebell stuff, which is way tougher on the pelvic girdle - plus I'd like to try and get some gains and potentially move up another kettlebell.

[thearthurdog]

I did 7km on the turbo yesterday and I am extremely happy about it. It is exactly two weeks since I crashed heavily in the Queensland Road Team Series, ending up in hospital with a punctured lung and broken ribs. It was lovely to feel my legs spinning around again...

[g-boaf]

Will need to get Boaf to have a go at the rollers if we need a track bike!

Not going to happen.

As for the weekend, dead. I dragged myself out there yesterday.

[Cul]

So, So weekend for me...

Friday: Didn't head out as the cold blustery conditions weren't ideal or riding - in fact it snowed not too far from home!
Saturday: I had planned to head out for a good 3hrs to 4hrs of Z2 but I slept in and then the day got away from me... Getting out for any time in the arvo is tough with little ones.
Sunday: The missus had to go out in the morning so my riding was limited to a short ride in the arvo (1hr 30min), mostly Z2 w/ various anaerobic intervals Z6 and 30sec Sprints Z7.

Overall, despite the lack of riding the weekend was a good one; the weather was fantastic on Sunday and it’s the first time all week I have been actually motivated to ride. I am assuming the race last weekend took a fair bit more out of me than anticipated so as I said in my previous post the race next weekend will be followed up by a week of nice easy rides, and then a build week before leading into another yet another race.

[Cul]

Jumped on the trainer last night and knocked out 3 x 8min (AT) 105% FTP w/ 3 minute rests... Good session, I'd previously been doing these with 5min rest periods, the 3min rest makes it just that little bit harder - I really suffered in the latter part of the last interval.

Was hoping to get in 2hrs of Z2 this morning, but cranky baby kept us up all night and then woke up early to boot...

[Xplora]

Dancing with the devil. Had a chesty infection/pneumonia type cough yesterday, thought I was out for the count for the next fortnight. Woke up today feeling like it was only a cold. Two blokes at church have been diagnosed with pneumonia so I took fright and went to the doc. Doc said I didn't need medication, could continue as normal after I suggested I wouldn't do the blowtorch ride tonight and only the weights.

Final session of max transition DONE today. PBs for the day and I'm feeling comfortable with the build across the weeks for next year as well. A good learning experience, and always felt challenged but avoiding injury. Worth noting though it hasn't been remotely "natural" - I didn't take anything illegal, but been taking truckloads of glutamine, BCAAs, creatine, beta alanine, electrolytes etc etc etc. I've noticed I can't seem to hit strong numbers without the gear... worth considering some supplements if you're hitting the weights.

[g-boaf]

Next lot of 3x10 for me today - tried it at slightly higher power, up 10w to see if I could make that work.

Bloody hard work. First interval good, almost got the second one done the same, third one was damn hard, my legs gave up at 5min in that one and then a few more times.

Doing 4.7w/kg in those efforts.

[Cul]

Doing 4.7w/kg in those efforts.

Big numbers, how does that correlate to FTP or MAP?..

[g-boaf]

Doing 4.7w/kg in those efforts.

Big numbers, how does that correlate to FTP or MAP?..

Nothing yet - working my way towards one of those bit by bit. One thing to remember is that I'm quite light. That's where that w/kg comes from. There is a long way to go just yet.


But given all this works off percentages - they were at 94%. I'll do the next lot at the same intensity and see how I handle those and step it up a bit more when I'm handling them better.

[Cul]

Doing 4.7w/kg in those efforts.

Big numbers, how does that correlate to FTP or MAP?..

Nothing yet - working my way towards one of those bit by bit. One thing to remember is that I'm quite light. That's where that w/kg comes from. There is a long way to go just yet.


But given all this works off percentages - they were at 94%. I'll do the next lot at the same intensity and see how I handle those and step it up a bit more when I'm handling them better.

Haha my FTP would look fair tidy if I were 10 kegs lighter

I am struggling to do longer FTP sessions (read 2 x 20) at any percentage so I feel your pain; yet I seem to be able to smash out 3 or 4 x 8mins at 105% FTP quite easily (in comparison).

[Xplora]

4.7w/kg for a 94% is extremely good... you've worked hard for the results too.

[g-boaf]

Haha my FTP would look fair tidy if I were 10 kegs lighter

I am struggling to do longer FTP sessions (read 2 x 20) at any percentage so I feel your pain; yet I seem to be able to smash out 3 or 4 x 8mins at 105% FTP quite easily (in comparison).

Those long intervals aren't easy. I guess the more you do them, the better it gets, well that's the idea - hopefully it goes to plan. 4x8 isn't easy either - 105% is tough. I've done that on 5x5, but not 4x8.

4.7w/kg for a 94% is extremely good... you've worked hard for the results too.

It's good to be making gains again. I'd probably get some more gains if I did the weights stuff you are doing, but I'm clueless about half of it to be honest. That's not for this time though.

[Cul]

I am struggling to do longer FTP sessions (read 2 x 20) at any percentage so I feel your pain; yet I seem to be able to smash out 3 or 4 x 8mins at 105% FTP quite easily (in comparison).

Those long intervals aren't easy. I guess the more you do them, the better it gets, well that's the idea - hopefully it goes to plan. 4x8 isn't easy either - 105% is tough. I've done that on 5x5, but not 4x8.

I think it's more a mental thing than anything; "train the brain"!

The problem I find with 2 x 20’s SST/FTP is last time I did them for a period my performance really started to stagnate after quite a short period; I wasn’t seeing gains where I should have been and generally felt flat despite adequate recovery, and a good balance of volume & intensity . It wasn’t until taking a more Vo2 Max focused approach that the gains really started to come.

Now I am on limited time, I try to get in an arse load of intensity balanced with a scattering of easier rides. I am aiming to bring the 2x20’s (>95% FTP)back, but it will only be one session a week.

[march83]

i agree, there's a sizeable mental aspect to doing workouts like 2x20. there's also some physiological adaptations to being able to grind for 20mins at steady state - it's not the sort of thing that "normal" riders do.

if i'm doing LOTS of threshold work, my performance tends to go down for a little while before it starts going up. also, the pay-off for those types of intervals seems delayed and my feeling is that it's because either a) i'm not doing a lot of them so the training effect is small or b) i'm doing a lot of them and so my fatigue levels are very high - i don't see the pay off until i've recovered significantly or improved significantly.

you also need to keep in mind that doing lots of ftp at the expense of other workouts can have a negative impact - if your races are all being decided by anaerobic efforts (like most are) but you're only doing threshold work then are you correctly addressing your weaknesses? most people could always use more threshold work and ftp is probably the critical factor to holding position in a bunch, but it's still a question worth asking yourself...

[Xplora]

I'm rereading Friel's powermeter book and he seems to have little enthusiasm for z4 work. I wonder if the gains expected aren't appropriate or targetted for most riders? I think the reality is that most of us would be satisfied with a z6 then z5 effort, then tempo if it's an early break. Reality is that you won't hold that break if you're relying on FTP efforts for most road races or crits. But I also wonder if we struggle to see the "holes" in our race strengths, and then the means for solving those problems. You can push FTP up with intervals at SST, or drag it up with VO2Max intervals, but which will suit a particular rider? I think the tougher call is that your capacity for torture resistance is tested quite a bit trying either of them!

[Cul]

Physiological adaptions generally take weeks and months to occur fully; hence the delayed response. In addition these efforts are taxing and can accumulate a lot of stress in a short period of you do a lot of them… Popular belief would have us thing that SST/FTP work is the be all and end all of cycling training and have us doing 2x20’s every day however there is a lot more to it!

Interesting Xplora’s comments about Friel’s book as adopts the scientifically proven and flies in the face of the Hunter/ Coggan methodology of SST until you drop.

Interesting Forum Thread on the Topic on Google Wattage:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searc ... uotL5SQfMJ

Nathan Townsend
There is abundant evidence that training at VO2max intensity (which is around 115-130% FTP) induces adaptations that would be expected to improve threshold. In fact there is plenty of evidence emerging which suggests it is probably better than training at threshold itself. I think one of the biggest popular training myths that exists is the concept that you MUST train at threshold to improve threshold. Whilst there is plenty of anecdotal evidence which says that FTP will increase if you train at FTP, there is absolutely no scientific evidence (ie: a well-controlled research study) that shows it is the best intensity to train at to improve FTP.

For reference sake, Nathan is a PHD in exercise physiology, a lecturer on sports science, has worked with AIS.


The above certainly reflects my experience.

[kb]

I found threshold work helped a lot getting ready for 3 Peaks. But to be fair, I had / have a long way to go and expect anything remotely systematic would have helped

[g-boaf]

I'm not going to argue which is better, I'm too new to all of this but I'm learning. I'm lucky to know someone who is vastly experienced with this, so I've got all that knowledge and advice at hand.

I wanted to longer intervals as much to know I could manage them, and I've never been much good at FTP tests. When I next do one I want to smash it.

But I know people who are doing VO2max work and that is working well for them. Indeed I will be as well in a while.

I'm doing one 3x10 a week and some sprint intervals. I'm putting a day in between them - I just don't recover quick enough. No use trying to do anything other than an easy ride today.

[march83]

you can develop that ability to recovery over time, too...

ftp vs threshold? do both. there are many ways to skin a cat (push up VS pull up) but a day will come when you want to ride steady state at your limit for 20mins and if it's not something you do regularly in training then it will be more difficult, both physiologically and psychologically - specificity always matters.

at the same time, pull up is absolutely a thing. personally, i find 4x5 @120% way easier than 2x20@105% and if they both get similar results then why do the 2x20? the super-threshold stuff is arguably better because it's more specific to the anaerobic conditions when races are won or lost...

[Xplora]

TLDR - there is a lot more to training than 2x20 at 100%

It's vital to remember that if something is hard, then it is probably worth pursuing as a training goal! I'm a bit in two minds about it all, but something sticks in the mind quite a lot - there is a lot of underlying assumption about these theories, enormous amounts in fact, which is fine as long as we keep them assumptions and you work out how to address the underlying issues. Hunter/Coggan is clearly explained in Friel's book (which is very different to what I remember). They have your FTP assumed to be threshold, and it's an hour long. P60 by another name. What happens if your races are only 45 minutes long (crit season!). What happens when your races are 2 hours long (road season!) What are the additional challenges your race presents? What are the additional challenges and strengths that you bring to the table? P60 might be the sum of all cycling in the USA, but that might not apply so readily to the Sydney crit scene. When each of us has a unique power profile, and arguably that power is better utilised on the flat for some and hills for others, I don't think the SST regime is a good goal for all. I agree it will get you results, but the effort it takes to get there is not mentally worth it for me. It's like racing 3 times a week in Sydney summertime. Bloody hard work.

[Greg@home]

I ride my Fluild trainer 3 or 4 nights a weeks..

I gotta laptop in my garage ...I watch this ... I helps me train..

Check it out ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSFYRiqo ... _026DX4KKw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Xplora]

Video is nice. I can see the value of the "next level" - Sufferfest/trainerroad etc but it makes it hard when you mentally just need something else to think about than the pedals...

[PhilMailloux]

I gotta laptop in my garage ...I watch this ... I helps me train..

Check it out ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSFYRiqo ... _026DX4KKw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Very cool video! best part of it is its free

[Xplora]

Yesterday
I'm epic stinky at spinning. Took 30 minutes of a 30 on/30 off workout to build an acceptably smooth pedal stroke on the rollers so I wasn't bouncing like a rap star's low rider air suspension. But I got it done. These shorter intervals are a million times easier to get done than those punishing 2x20s.

Today'
Getting better 30/30 at z4 and 30/30 at z6. Really need to get the bike serviced, can't get out of the little ring