The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Ignoto » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:39 am

Xplora wrote: All the creatine and protein seems to be helping recovery too...


I've contemplated bringing creatine into my recovery/general intake as from some light reading I've done it's useful to help delay the onset of lactic acid. While it's not a huge advantage, in a sprint or even a decent climb, an additional 10 seconds delay on lactic coming on would be beneficial I would feel? Is that why you've incorporated Creatine or is it strictly recovery based?

Just a question regarding the different types of Vo2 intervals; I'm currently rocking 3 x (4 x 40/20's) but I'm tempted to try 3 or 4 x (5 x 30/30). Is there a difference in 10 seconds when it comes to FTP intervals? My current rest time is probably 15-16 seconds as I'm ensuring that when I hit the 40 seconds I'm at the 100% level for the entire duration and not skimping myself of 4-5 seconds of training.
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by BNA » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:22 pm

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Ross » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:22 pm

Ignoto wrote:
Xplora wrote: All the creatine and protein seems to be helping recovery too...


I've contemplated bringing creatine into my recovery/general intake as from some light reading I've done it's useful to help delay the onset of lactic acid.


Lactic acid myths, debunked

http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/02/ ... ked_316899
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Xplora » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:25 pm

BRO SCIENCE ALERT
creatine is related to the phoshogen/CP-ATP/phosphate energy system aka alactic anaerobic system. Your 100m sprint is mostly this system. Doesn't make lactic acid, doesn't need O2 or glycogen to work. Lasts 5-10 seconds. Nothing is perfect lol
Creatine helps with sprinting, low rep weights and maximal power. I am doing a bunch of 400-600w work amongst the FTP work. Creatine would help with that explosive effort.
As soon as your legs feel burning, you are past the phosphate system and its sugar you are burning. Very useful way to tell if you are actually targeting the right system.

All systems are in constant use and most riding is done aerobic, burning fat. But if you want the boost your z7, creatine can help. Just remember that you have to really bend the frame. Maximal efforts are just that. My back and abs are really sore after yesterday. :idea:

To answer the question, creatine for me is a preparation for the workout, to extend my performance so the muscles are worked harder, and this makes bigger muscles to cope with next time. It will NOT help your VO2max or tempo or endurance work.

Vo2max isn't FTP, don't stress on it much. You are only trying to improve your aerobic capacity, you won't lose much getting it wrong. Most critical thing is that you don't push too hard, then you can go again tomorrow. Speaking of which, need to take a light spin.
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby brendan c » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:31 am

how long before a hilly race would you stop taking the creatine X? 1 to 3 kilos of retained water probably doesn't matter in a flat crit out west
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Xplora » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:02 am

That's a great question. No idea whatsoever. :lol: that's why I said "bro science alert". You get what you pay for with my advice. ;)

I'm not taking it to create the full badass loading effect that the boys in the weights room are going to get, plus you know I'm borderline anorexic at the best of times, Brendan. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm carrying an extra kilo right now you mention it, but the extra watts are making up for it in spades (assuming it is having some effect :shock:) Ultimately, if I'm going to get an extra couple seconds of brute power once or twice a race, that's worth the time and money. All I can say for sure is that I am faster with it than without.

Just to clarify, I'm taking a Citrulline Malate , AAKG , Beta Alanine and Creatine tri Malate combo before each hard workout (nothing on recovery to tempo rides). Races has about 3-4 shots of coffee as well. Only been doing it for a month or so though. Seems to be helping. I'm taking this stuff if I'm spending a large amount of time above tempo pace.

Edit: Training! Yeah that. 3x10 plus 5 minutes because I wasn't sure I'd make the full 10. Also did some spinups and sprints. Seeing the value of the derny right now, sprints for a roadie really need to start at 40 because a crit isn't relaxed at 130bpm HR when you explode for the finish. Didn't eat properly today, was struggling to finish the Z4. Hopefully clear out some cobwebs! I'll save the brutal sprint practice for Build 3 I think. :shock:
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby toolonglegs » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:30 pm

Found all my old power files today from before my back injury ( 2010-2011 ) ... pity they are all .csv files, makes it a pain to put them in a power curve ( have to work this one out! ). I knew I was down on power, now I know how much :shock:
Peak 1345 - 1050
5 sec 1235 - 975
30 sec 881 - 678
1 min 690 - 483
5 min 458 - 370
10 min 403 - 359
20 min 369 - 339
Only really checked the 20 min and peak / 5s properly ... least I have something to aim for now :D .
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby poohkies » Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:56 pm

had a blast going around cootha, pr'd nearly every segment which is great way to finish a Week
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Nikolai » Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:52 pm

Xplora wrote:Just to clarify, I'm taking a Citrulline Malate , AAKG , Beta Alanine and Creatine tri Malate combo before each hard workout (nothing on recovery to tempo rides). Races has about 3-4 shots of coffee as well.


Why?
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Xplora » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:19 pm

Dang I thought I replied to the question. I am missing something in my nutrition that allows a big jump in performance if I take the supplements. BCAAs help you so much on the big rides its crazy. I did 130 ks solo in 35 degree heat, av 29kmh.

Seeing how the support works out for the crits and hour long interval sessions. My recovery has been great. I'm going to run - half marathon on holidays just because I can. I wouldn't do that with out support because that's 2-3 days of agony without powders of power.

Training last night was 6 lots of short pinch climbs then 6 long pinch climbs. 85tss over 50 minutes. Legs still work, joints don't hater either. Sweeeeeet.
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Nikolai » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:41 pm

OK, cheers. I was just curious :)
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Xplora » Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:48 pm

The caps in my reply to Brendan c above sums it up. "bro science"... it's possible that I'm only slightly down on some of the nutrients I take, maybe I really really need one or two of them... it's also possible they don't help unless you punish yourself (3000m climbing day, that kind of thing). Even the supplier and their endorsee has said to me "does it do what it says? If so, good, otherwise, no good" and "everyone is different". Get yourself a small dose (250gms) and trial it for a couple months. You'll work out if it is helping quite fast.
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Nikolai » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:45 pm

Xplora wrote:Get yourself a small dose (250gms) and trial it for a couple months. You'll work out if it is helping quite fast.


I don't need any help like that :) Paniagua is all I need. Beside, what's a point anyway (which is why I asked in the first place, but you already answered that).
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Nikolai » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:47 pm

BTW, I have no idea what bro science is. Should I google? Or my laptop will be hijacked if I do?
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Xplora » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:25 pm

I saw it mentioned on a bodybuilder website recently... just warning about mates giving you advice, and they can get quite convincing when you start talking about AAKGs and trimulates and other jargon hehehe. It's science Bro! :lol:
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Ross » Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:33 am

Had Monday off the bike as a rest day, first day off in a fortnight. Felt like I was on "the juice" yesterday! Felt like I could of out-sprinted Andre Greipel and out-climbed Chris Froome! :shock:

Today I felt like crap. Dunno why. I had a nice pasta meal last night for dinner and went to bed at usual time. :o Rode out (~30 mins) to the start of this morning's bunch ride (after driving to work), left super early as I thought I would probably be so slow and miss the start. But I didn't. I got there about 20 mins early.

The riders start turning up, including one guy on a dually 29er! Oh great, I'm thinking, just to rub salt in it I am going to be smashed by a guy on a full suspension MTB. Is this the lowest point of my cycling "career"? :oops:

Anyway, bunch takes off and surprisingly I'm keeping up without having to blow a gasket. I'm 2nd last wheel at this stage (out of about 40 riders) and the bunch is surgy and the guy in front of me is doing silly stuff like bunny hopping potholes and draincovers which is annoying the crap out of me but I don't say anything and just concentrate on not running into him or any of the obstructions he is jumping over.

After about 20 mins we get to the first climb. Only about 1km at maybe 8%. It's usually every man and woman for themselves here and I thought for sure I would get dropped, but surprisingly I managed to work my way up through the bunch and got in the front half and, most importantly, away from the bunnyhopper.

We crest the hill and there is a short downhill and then a sharp left followed by 500m of flat until another left turn and more climbing. Got on he back of a small group of 5 or so along the flat, they were actually going a bit slower than I would of liked but decided to just sit in and conserve my energy for the next climb.

We hit the climb and I start moving through the group again and come out at the top in the top dozen, so not too bad all things considered. I was giving it all I had to get there but the important thing was that I was going forward and not backward.

Then we roll downhill toward the next short climb. We come up to a roundabout and there is a black 4WD coming through from the right. Probably half the bunch goes through the roundabout in front of him but I stopped and then another half dozen or so riders kept going and eventually the rest did stop and let the 4WD through. No wonder motorists get the $hit$ with cyclists.

After that incident we continued to roll down the road and the main bunch had sat up and waited for us and so we all arrived at the last climb together. There were too many riders for me to make much progress through so I just continued at around 75% until we got near the top and the bunch had thinned a bit and then I managed to make up a few places but still in the back half of the bunch.

Then we have our final workout, a mini timetrial of sorts over an undulating 2 or 3 km with a couple of sharp corners that you need to stop pedalling for. I kept the hammer down and was slowly working my way through the bunch, picking up maybe 5 or 6 places. Managed to make it back into the front half of the bunch as the ride finished and people started peeling off to go to the coffee shop.

So all in all a fairly reasonable ride for me this morning (50.8km) considering how bad I felt at the beginning.
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Xplora » Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:53 am

Who is forcing you to dodge crap with bunny hopping? It's a training ride. Call it out or stay on the back? What a bummer for you. I am not perfect at calling but if you have the ability to bunny hop you can call it out. It's a road bike. It stays on the ground. Good on you for performing. Might be worth reviewing your fortnight, to work why you were struggling today. I love superman but it can be deceptive. Then again, I did hill work on Monday and won my first B grade race on Tuesday??? :| no idea why :lol:
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby doggatas » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:22 am

I had to double check which thread I was in for moment there, thought I was in the Race Report thread. haha

Had a really good session at the track yesterday. A bunch of us usually head out for a lunch ride (anywhere from 2-10 guys) and yesterday we visited the track. Warm up was the ride to the track. At the track we completed a 30 minute TTT, with riders swinging off after each lap. The good thing about the track is guys can miss laps when they blow and joining back in when recovered enough to endure a few more laps. At one point there were only 3 of us left on pace. This hurt a bit. We avg 45.6 km/h for the 30 minutes with each of my "on" laps between 450-500 watts for 31-34 second laps. With two laps to go, I hit it hard as it would be my last on lap, perhaps too hard. A freshie who had missed some laps was on my wheel and surged a bit and I was unable to get back on :( I was cooked.
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Ross » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:13 am

Xplora wrote:Good on you for performing. Might be worth reviewing your fortnight, to work why you were struggling today.


Not sure why I was feeling crap this morning, I did some easy hill reps yesterday and with my commute clocked just over 100km for the day which sounds a lot but when you split it 75km in morning and 25km in afternoon it's not so bad. I think I might of hammered it too hard after my hill reps, commuting back to work, Pretty much every hill I attacked and gave it full gas, just because I could. But that's not a lot different to how I normally ride. If ihave the legs and lungs at the time then I'll have a go, if I haven't then I'll try and go easy.
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Xplora » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:47 am

My guess is insufficient recovery ;) a century with hill repeats?! Dr Ferrari called with your new updated prescription :shock: That's hard hard work!
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Ross » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:00 pm

Xplora wrote:My guess is insufficient recovery ;) a century with hill repeats?! Dr Ferrari called with your new updated prescription :shock: That's hard hard work!


I don't think so. Done it plenty of other times. The hill is only about 3km long at about 5-6% gradient. I was doing them while chatting with a friend at around 17mins each. My PR is about 10 mins. I did the first one at pace before my friend got there and did it in about 11 mins and the next 3 at around 17 mins each.
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Xplora » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:19 pm

I'm talking about the other 70kms plus the rest of the fortnight... ;) I don't know what causes these things, but taking your foot off the gas pedal enough to let the car slow down without stopping is a difficult thing. You could have residual recovery issues from the last fortnight?
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Ross » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:23 am

When I got home yesterday I downloaded (uploaded?) my Garmin to Strava and found I got PRs on all of the hills except the last where I was boxed in and also on the TT section! :)
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Cul » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:02 pm

Often when I feel showtime is when I preform the best – the feeling showtime is obviously a psychological state, not a physiological state, it’s possibly a result of the change in routine in this case not riding for one day.

In addition without looking at your whole fought night, month, year to date, sounds like there is a pretty significant workload and perhaps not enough rest. On days similar to the one mention above I will generally hammer the morning, then easy spin, or at worse a Z1 ride home. Do you have any recovery days built into your program?
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby Ross » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:33 pm

Monday off no riding
Tues Hill repeats (3) steepish hill average about 10% about 3km long no commuting 20km TSS 77
Wed Hard hilly bunch ride 70km TSS 144
Thurs Easy long commute 43km TSS 55
Fri Easy bunch ride 71km TSS 104
Sat was group ride that ws supposed to be easy turned hardish 76km TSS 141
Sun was a crit race, flat course (false flat 1%) 1km long with hotdog turn each end with sprint primes each lap. I won from solo breakaway! + ride out and back from home 66km TSS 146
Monday last week was active recovery E1 ride to work and back (uphill on way back so actually E2) 19km TSS 38
Tues was hill repeats (3) same hill as last Tues + commute 59km TSS 136
Wednesday was fast bunch ride + commute 42km TSS 82
Thursday was hill repeats again, different hill not as steep or long as Tues but I did 6 reps 73km TSS 162
Fri I was feeling crap and tried to go with a slower bunch that is normally E1 when sitting in the bunch but I got dropped and just did an E2 solo ride 64km TSS 91
Sat was an E2/E3 ride 101km TSS 154
Sunday was another group ride that was supposed to be cruisey but turned into a bit of a smashfest 81km TSS 171
Monday rest day, no riding
Tues see my previous post
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc

Postby trailgumby » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:42 pm

Bugger. Knee's quite tender and I had to resort to walking climbs on a super gentle ride home from work yesterday. So no low cadence hill repeats for me today. :(

An appointment is lined up with the physio for Saturday. Not sure if I've overdone the build phase or if it's a consequence of the stack I had a few weeks ago on the trail where I landed hard on that knee, or both.

So it looks like I'm going to strike out on Round 1 of the Shimano GP on 1 March. :evil:

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