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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:56 pm
by cerb
If nothing else, props on some very consistent training Jules! Good luck for the weekend!

Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:10 am
by cerb
Have substituted a few 10-20min threshold sessions for Zwift races in the past week. Gotta say, it's much more enjoyable to do a Zwift race for an hour at maybe 95%FTP than 4x 10mins at 95-99%FTP.

I end up doing a bit more high-Tempo work and a bit less Threshold work, but have the added effect of some over-unders thown in to get some VO2 and anaerobic build going on too. I also get a higher training load from a race than I do from a HIIT session, as there aren't the rest periods between intervals.

I have always thought that racing is a great way to train for racing, but have never had the time to get out for more than one race per week...

Thoughts on 2x weekly zwift races each week instead of 2x 'traditional' HIIT sessions as training for crits (only crits)? Will I be missing anything doing this?

Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:30 pm
by jules21
I think racing is a good substitute cerb. but more crits. my experience is that road races knock the stuffing out of me and hamper my training for most of the rest of the week, whereas crits incur a lower training load, leaving you ready to do more. Zwift races are in the same category. I love Zwift races. if you are using a training analysis tool (I use Cycling Analytics) you can check the training session parameters - e.g. how long you stayed in each training zone. obviously with a race (real or virtual) you aren't doing structured intervals but you can kind of compare.

Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:32 pm
by jules21
anyway after doing a stack of training for Midlands tomorrow, I went OTB on Wed. so that's wasted :oops:

Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:48 am
by march83
After doing almost nothing but commuting for the past few months, with my performance manager absolutely flat-lining, my injuries all making themselves known and just generally being quite tired (not enough food, too much uni + work), i seem to have accidentally stumbled upon a nice bit of form. last weekend, I knocked a few seconds off my PB up a local climb with 5.91w/kg for 5 minutes, then last night I posted a season best 20 minute FTP test of 4.96w/kg.

I guess I should plan some crits while i'm on a hot streak?

Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:00 pm
by g-boaf
march83 wrote:After doing almost nothing but commuting for the past few months, with my performance manager absolutely flat-lining, my injuries all making themselves known and just generally being quite tired (not enough food, too much uni + work), i seem to have accidentally stumbled upon a nice bit of form. last weekend, I knocked a few seconds off my PB up a local climb with 5.91w/kg for 5 minutes, then last night I posted a season best 20 minute FTP test of 4.96w/kg.

I guess I should plan some crits while i'm on a hot streak?


That's a nice w/kg. I wish I can do very little and manage that - but that's not happening.

I've swapped things around a bit and have two rest days together, that's working pretty well.

Haven't decided what else I'm doing in terms of riding so far outside of just whatever weekend riding I want to do, but I've got a few overseas trips planned, one or two in Europe (particularly France and Switzerland) and one a bit closer to home.

Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:21 pm
by cerb
Sorry to hear about the crash and subsequent DNS Jules. Did too much TSS send you OTB? :P

March83 - nice one! That's massive! Are you a relative lightweight by any chance? I'm nowhere near that level, but my FTP would need to be over 450W to hit 5W/kg, which is never going to happen...

I'm 6'4" (race weight is 86-87kg and at that weight, I don't have much to lose) and it feels like it's physiologically easier for shorter people who can attain a much lower body mass to be able to reach high W/kg. I see plenty of 'shorter' people generate 300-350W FTP, which leads to those sorts of W/kg numbers. But (non-pro) FTP above 400W is pretty unrealistic, which means i'm destined to never get much over 4W/kg FTP....

I guess this the real reason I stick to crits - W/kg is less of an issue as pure output reigns.

Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:27 pm
by ft_critical
cerb wrote:Sorry to hear about the crash and subsequent DNS Jules. Did too much TSS send you OTB? :P

March83 - nice one! That's massive! Are you a relative lightweight by any chance? I'm nowhere near that level, but my FTP would need to be over 450W to hit 5W/kg, which is never going to happen...

I'm 6'4" (race weight is 86-87kg and at that weight, I don't have much to lose) and it feels like it's physiologically easier for shorter people who can attain a much lower body mass to be able to reach high W/kg. I see plenty of 'shorter' people generate 300-350W FTP, which leads to those sorts of W/kg numbers. But (non-pro) FTP above 400W is pretty unrealistic, which means i'm destined to never get much over 4W/kg FTP....

I guess this the real reason I stick to crits - W/kg is less of an issue as pure output reigns.


I have been doing a few Zwift races. It is great racing but a depressing reality check. At 3.7w/kg FTP I am just mid-pack B grade in the big Euro races. Zwift recognises the pure watts affect, so bigger riders get a benefit at the same w/kg. Doubly bad for me then at a lowish absolute output.

Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:16 pm
by jules21
cerb wrote:Sorry to hear about the crash and subsequent DNS Jules. Did too much TSS send you OTB? :P

I raced cerb. turns out sore thumb is not too bad on a roadie on the hoods and drops. but still spoiled it a bit.

cerb wrote:I guess this the real reason I stick to crits - W/kg is less of an issue as pure output reigns.

there are road races you would be competitive in. footscray run some flat winter road races out west, e.g. Little River, Balliang. you'd do well in the VRS Tour of South West and of course there's the Warny but you need lots of time to train for that :)

Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:18 pm
by jules21
ft_critical wrote:I have been doing a few Zwift races. It is great racing but a depressing reality check. At 3.7w/kg FTP I am just mid-pack B grade in the big Euro races. Zwift recognises the pure watts affect, so bigger riders get a benefit at the same w/kg. Doubly bad for me then at a lowish absolute output.

you've got to take Zwift with a grain of salt though. easy to drop weight on Zwift. also it obviously doesn't adjust for PM error. you need to enjoy it for what it is, rather than compare yourself with others.

Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:52 pm
by RichB
jules21 wrote:you've got to take Zwift with a grain of salt though. easy to drop weight on Zwift. also it obviously doesn't adjust for PM error. you need to enjoy it for what it is, rather than compare yourself with others.


Very easy and too tempting for some, coincidentally I've never bumped into so many sub-65kg people in my life.

I compare current results with old, and also gauge how I'm going against usual suspects in the races though I don't put too much in that either tbh. I generally ignore anybody these days if I don't know them or haven't raced them previously.

Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:04 am
by march83
Thanks gents.

cerb wrote:March83 - nice one! That's massive! Are you a relative lightweight by any chance? I'm nowhere near that level, but my FTP would need to be over 450W to hit 5W/kg, which is never going to happen...

I'm 6'4" (race weight is 86-87kg and at that weight, I don't have much to lose) and it feels like it's physiologically easier for shorter people who can attain a much lower body mass to be able to reach high W/kg. I see plenty of 'shorter' people generate 300-350W FTP, which leads to those sorts of W/kg numbers. But (non-pro) FTP above 400W is pretty unrealistic, which means i'm destined to never get much over 4W/kg FTP....

I guess this the real reason I stick to crits - W/kg is less of an issue as pure output reigns.


Currently bouncing between 80 and 85kg (AT) 6'1". If I could escape some of the stress in my life (uni, work, kids) and spend a few months focusing on getting weight down there's really no reason why I couldn't be in the mid-high 70s.

This last 20 minute test was at 412W but TBH it wasn't a proper test because it wasn't a 100% effort - I started slowly thinking I would be happy to just do 400W, and I didn't destroy myself in the last few minutes to finish it so I probably left a few watts on the table. That's not to say that it wasn't really, really tough, it just wasn't truly maximal. I can do 425 on my day I think.

I'm just really surprised that despite being pretty stressed, eating strangely (deficit all week, surplus on the weekend) and not doing any training which is particularly intense or structured I'm still maintaining a pretty high level. All I'm really doing at the moment is maybe 2 or 3 hours of sweet spot a week if i'm lucky and the rest of my kays are short, stop-start commutes with relatively low intensity.

Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:30 am
by jules21
RichB wrote:Very easy and too tempting for some, coincidentally I've never bumped into so many sub-65kg people in my life.

yep. I don't even bother with power-ups most of the time. it's just training - the harder the better.

march83 wrote:This last 20 minute test was at 412W

that's quite a lot of power :shock:

anyway, my training is suffering right now due to 1 of our dogs who has taken to jumping on the bed in the middle of the night, then growling at me when I move my feet and interrupt her sleep.

Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:34 pm
by cerb
Sounds like you're doing something right at least march...! Wish I had the persistence and mettel to get to that sort of level - nice work! :)

Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:42 am
by g-boaf
march83 wrote:Thanks gents.

cerb wrote:March83 - nice one! That's massive! Are you a relative lightweight by any chance? I'm nowhere near that level, but my FTP would need to be over 450W to hit 5W/kg, which is never going to happen...

I'm 6'4" (race weight is 86-87kg and at that weight, I don't have much to lose) and it feels like it's physiologically easier for shorter people who can attain a much lower body mass to be able to reach high W/kg. I see plenty of 'shorter' people generate 300-350W FTP, which leads to those sorts of W/kg numbers. But (non-pro) FTP above 400W is pretty unrealistic, which means i'm destined to never get much over 4W/kg FTP....

I guess this the real reason I stick to crits - W/kg is less of an issue as pure output reigns.


Currently bouncing between 80 and 85kg (AT) 6'1". If I could escape some of the stress in my life (uni, work, kids) and spend a few months focusing on getting weight down there's really no reason why I couldn't be in the mid-high 70s.

This last 20 minute test was at 412W but TBH it wasn't a proper test because it wasn't a 100% effort - I started slowly thinking I would be happy to just do 400W, and I didn't destroy myself in the last few minutes to finish it so I probably left a few watts on the table. That's not to say that it wasn't really, really tough, it just wasn't truly maximal. I can do 425 on my day I think.

I'm just really surprised that despite being pretty stressed, eating strangely (deficit all week, surplus on the weekend) and not doing any training which is particularly intense or structured I'm still maintaining a pretty high level. All I'm really doing at the moment is maybe 2 or 3 hours of sweet spot a week if i'm lucky and the rest of my kays are short, stop-start commutes with relatively low intensity.


March, that is enormous. :shock: You are clearly doing things the right way to get that sort of power. Respect!

RichB wrote:Very easy and too tempting for some, coincidentally I've never bumped into so many sub-65kg people in my life.


Well, you are talking to one now. I can get lower than 60kg if I eat properly and ride a lot.

Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:42 pm
by ft_critical
RichB wrote:
jules21 wrote:you've got to take Zwift with a grain of salt though. easy to drop weight on Zwift. also it obviously doesn't adjust for PM error. you need to enjoy it for what it is, rather than compare yourself with others.


Very easy and too tempting for some, coincidentally I've never bumped into so many sub-65kg people in my life.

I compare current results with old, and also gauge how I'm going against usual suspects in the races though I don't put too much in that either tbh. I generally ignore anybody these days if I don't know them or haven't raced them previously.


Take it with a grain of salt,maybe. I am coming to the inevitable conclusion that there are some people with massive natural ability. Look at March above 5.3w/kg on 2hrs of sweet spot and commutes. I managed 3.9w/kg on the 20 min Zwift climb for 8th of 22 in B grade, 2min down on the winner in a one hour race. Of course I still find it rewarding otherwise I wouldn't do it. But exposure to the global gene pool is still confronting.

Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:30 pm
by andrewjcw
ft_critical wrote:I am coming to the inevitable conclusion that there are some people with massive natural ability. Look at March above 5.3w/kg on 2hrs of sweet spot and commutes. I managed 3.9w/kg on the 20 min Zwift climb for 8th of 22 in B grade, 2min down on the winner in a one hour race. Of course I still find it rewarding otherwise I wouldn't do it. But exposure to the global gene pool is still confronting.


There's natural ability and there's hard work. Both are factors in any success. Humans have a tendency to attribute all their own success to hard work and all other's achievement to natural ability. Anyone > 5w/kg has had a lot of quantity and quality of riding. You have to remember some people's commutes are better training than other's coach developed training programs. There's also a big difference between developing fitness and retaining it. There's also the matter of not everyone that says they have 5w/kg ftp actually has (although I wouldn't ever bring that up without good reason).

Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:13 pm
by ft_critical
andrewjcw wrote:Humans have a tendency to attribute all their own success to hard work and all other's achievement to natural ability.


Andrew, I understand the generalisation you are making. It isn't true in my case, far from it. I have raced for many years and chipped away at 'all' the things that hold me back. One thing I have noticed through all this is that I can control many of the attributes required for success; diet, fatigue, peaking, mind, time, weight, environment, equipment, coaching, race position, race craft etc, but I can't move my trained optimum key outputs much at all; FTP, 5min, 5s power etc.

I guess, because I am not a professional rider, I can accept these limitations and continue on. It took a while to reach that attitude by-the- way. In club, state and national comps you see it, but I think because you can see all the data real time and the pool of people racing is larger, Zwift just makes the differences much more obvious.

Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:38 pm
by RichB
You may be right ft_critical, I know that feeling from a related sport, all I could conclude was such is life. How's your race craft / strategy? As you'd know there's a lot of variety in people's w/kg outputs despite similar times to the finish line, sometimes faster riders with less effort. And sometimes the races are simply faster than average. Just had a look at the KISS Americas AM race (https://www.zwiftpower.com/race.php?id=13559) , there's all sorts of w/kg amongst A & B riders.