training advice requested

The foundations for successful riding

training advice requested

Postby AAMerchant » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:45 pm

Hello World of Cycling

im new to cycling - high hopes are to get into racing so any advice is more than appreciated

im commuting to work every day its about 8 km ride on road or trail

in traffic my average speed its around 23 - 24 top speed around 44 km/h with average cadence of 77 and max cadence of 130 ( these are averages over 15 rides )

in no traffic my average speed is around 26 - 27 top speed around 46 km/h with average cadence of 83 and max cadence of 133 ( these are averages over 15 rides )

the route has 2 short hills - 1 with a gradient of around 3% which is 1 km long and the other with a gradient of 5% which is about 200 meters long - the rest of the route is mainly straight with simple ups and downs -

at the moment i weigh about 98 kilos but im trying to drop weight which is happening slowly - im playing squash twice a week and riding 4 times a week trying to do 2 hilly rides 25 km each and 2 as straight as i can find 40 km , Melbourne is pretty hilly - during riding i have noticed at times my legs feel heavy and stiff like lead thats usually in the middle of a hill or right after coming down one. then there are times where its like they have a mind of their own and wont stop moving (of course this a the best feeling) - also im more comfortable riding in a bigger gear and can get into a better rhythem - smaller gears feel like im rocking ( which im trying to stablize ) pushing down and going no where. i do tend to stay in the bigger gear as much as i can - usually change to lower gears on hills and i go down the gears as i get tired , i try and change the gear at the point where i cant pedal the next pedal

i wanna go faster - this morning 4 people passed me which is motivating cause i tried to catch them they eventually disappeared ...

im riding a shogun ninja road bike with an ultegra grp set and alx wheels

any advice is appreciated to help train

thanks
Ally
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by BNA » Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:17 pm

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Re: training advice requested

Postby snedden9485 » Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:17 pm

advice is to get out and ride as much as possible. Try to gradually increase the intensity of the rides and head for the hills. They will get the heart rate up and increase your strength / power. Start trying to do some longer rides (3+ hours), these will help you to lose the kgs which will benefit you to no end.
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Re: training advice requested

Postby JustinS007 » Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:09 am

snedden9485 wrote:Start trying to do some longer rides (3+ hours)

+1. It seems that a long ride at an easier (but not too easy) intensity is all that's missing from your plan. If you could get out once each week or at least once each fortnight and go for 3 hours or more they your body will start to 'train' the endurance systems.

Remember that weight loss is about diet, fitness is about training/exercise. You can ride even 1000km per week and GAIN weight, so be careful that you don't over eat to compensate when you are feeling tired from your rides. It's an easy trap to fall into.
I'm a runner, but I sure love to ride!
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Re: training advice requested

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:20 pm

JustinS007 wrote:
snedden9485 wrote:Start trying to do some longer rides (3+ hours)

+1. It seems that a long ride at an easier (but not too easy) intensity is all that's missing from your plan. If you could get out once each week or at least once each fortnight and go for 3 hours or more they your body will start to 'train' the endurance systems.

While including a longer ride is a good idea, the body's adaptations for the demands of aerobic endurance can be readily provided by much shorter rides as well, provided the intensity is sufficient. Indeed, many of the best endurance adaptations come from focussed efforts on shorter rides.

If someone hasn't ridden 3 hours in one go before or near that much, then I don't suggest just jumping into the deep end. Build up to it over a number of weeks/months.

For the OP, just keep riding regularly, 4-5 times/week and gradually increase the overall weekly duration of your rides (about 10-15%/week is good), include variable terrain and flatter rides. As you get fitter, your speed will pick up, so think about your effort level. Some days moderate, some days a consistently solid effort, other days steady but include a few hard efforts 5-15min long. If feeling knackered, have an extra day off.

You might want to consult with someone with good knowledge to check your bike fits you properly. That can make a big difference to comfort, endurance and power.

Maybe find a group to ride with once or twice a fortnight for variety and motivation.

Most important of all, keep enjoying it. :D
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Re: training advice requested

Postby Missy24 » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:37 am

This is what I did when I first started...

Time on the bike... even if you only start with small distances, the more time on the bike the better you will be.

But don't just Ride Around... go out and push yourself.

I suggest also doing some RUNNING... yes I know cyclists don't seem to like running, but it builds a good muscle base in your legs. It almost like a building, your building isn't going to stand up if you don't have good structure, so put the work in for the structure. Oh and running will give you a strong back (which you need in most sports) and you will drop weight quicker, but it needs to be done consistently, once a week is not enough.

To build speed, you should add a few sprint to the end (cycling/running).

To REALLY give you the strength then you should take up HILL SPRINTS (i think that speaks for itself... running and cycling) I do hill sprints on Brunswick Road leading into Moonee Ponds twice a week and its improved my running better than ever and my cycling and my rowing.
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Re: training advice requested

Postby Jono L. » Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:34 pm

Running is great training for running. It won't build any magical building that will make your riding any better.

It will be great for bone density and just some variety so it's not to be discouraged..I just wouldn't go around thinking it'll improve your cycling performance :)
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Re: training advice requested

Postby Wayfarer » Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:46 pm

Jono L. wrote:Running is great training for running. It won't build any magical building that will make your riding any better.

It will be great for bone density and just some variety so it's not to be discouraged..I just wouldn't go around thinking it'll improve your cycling performance :)

it'll help build a better, more rigid and dverse foundation for exercise.. I use running and swimming alot. Running builds lesser used (for cycling) muscles in your legs, which aid in power and cardio endurance.

perhaps some resistance training will help too.
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Re: training advice requested

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:55 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Jono L. wrote:Running is great training for running. It won't build any magical building that will make your riding any better.

It will be great for bone density and just some variety so it's not to be discouraged..I just wouldn't go around thinking it'll improve your cycling performance :)

it'll help build a better, more rigid and dverse foundation for exercise.. I use running and swimming alot. Running builds lesser used (for cycling) muscles in your legs, which aid in power and cardio endurance.

perhaps some resistance training will help too.

The lesser used muscles in cycling are lesser used for a reason.*

Nothing wrong with running per se but please don't promote it as an effective way to improve power when riding a bike. The only way it will do that is if you are untrained to start with and when just about any exercise will help.


* This sounds like the "you need develop a strong core for endurance cycling performance" myth. You get all the core strength you need to ride a bike from riding a bike, provided you ride hard enough and long enough. Again this is not to say one shouldn't do such exercise, just don't go promoting the fallacy that it will make you more (aerobically) powerful on a bike.
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Re: training advice requested

Postby USM TOM » Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:05 pm

Missy24 wrote:
But don't just Ride Around... go out and push yourself.

.


if you push hard day after day you burn your self out pretty quickly and grow to hate cycling

i ride 4-5 days per week which includes 2 hard training sessions about 1 hour in duration and the rest of my rides are lower intensity but about 2.5 hours long
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Re: training advice requested

Postby Jono L. » Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:36 pm

Wayfarer wrote:it'll help build a better, more rigid and dverse foundation for exercise.. I use running and swimming alot. Running builds lesser used (for cycling) muscles in your legs, which aid in power and cardio endurance.

perhaps some resistance training will help too.


Running and swimming are great. No qualms.

But they will no do a thing for your cycling performance. I don't need a rigid diverse foundation for cycling, I need some legs and big @rse set of lungs :)
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Re: training advice requested

Postby tripstobaltimore » Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:15 pm

Jono L. wrote:
Wayfarer wrote:it'll help build a better, more rigid and dverse foundation for exercise.. I use running and swimming alot. Running builds lesser used (for cycling) muscles in your legs, which aid in power and cardio endurance.

perhaps some resistance training will help too.


Running and swimming are great. No qualms.

But they will no do a thing for your cycling performance. I don't need a rigid diverse foundation for cycling, I need some legs and big @rse set of lungs :)


No, they will help your cycling. It can be argued (and I think this is what Alex is alluding to) that when some one has a very focused training plan then time on the bike is the most important thing, and there is not a huge benefit from cross training. The time would be better spent on the bike.

I personally believe that, especially for someone who does not have a solid aerobic base, that cross training is a great way to improve this base. Why not break up the training with some other sports such as running or swimming? I wouldn't really bother with resistance training though.

These are just all my humble opinions of course :D
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Re: training advice requested

Postby Jono L. » Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:49 pm

tripstobaltimore wrote:
Jono L. wrote:
Wayfarer wrote:it'll help build a better, more rigid and dverse foundation for exercise.. I use running and swimming alot. Running builds lesser used (for cycling) muscles in your legs, which aid in power and cardio endurance.

perhaps some resistance training will help too.


Running and swimming are great. No qualms.

But they will no do a thing for your cycling performance. I don't need a rigid diverse foundation for cycling, I need some legs and big @rse set of lungs :)


No, they will help your cycling. It can be argued (and I think this is what Alex is alluding to) that when some one has a very focused training plan then time on the bike is the most important thing, and there is not a huge benefit from cross training. The time would be better spent on the bike.

I personally believe that, especially for someone who does not have a solid aerobic base, that cross training is a great way to improve this base. Why not break up the training with some other sports such as running or swimming? I wouldn't really bother with resistance training though.

These are just all my humble opinions of course :D

It depends on your goal. If your goal is to run and swim as well as ride then yes running and swimming will be beneficial.

If we are talking improving cycling, the best thing is cycling. It's a no brainer.

What Alex is alluding to is that if you take an untrained person and make them do any aerobic activity it will reflect in improved activity because they have come from no fitness what so ever. What he is hinting towards is that such a person would improve a lot more by just cycling. :)
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Re: training advice requested

Postby tripstobaltimore » Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:19 am

I'm not convinced - a person new to the sport I think would benefit from cross training, if only as a means of increasing aerobic fitness without over stressing muscles that are generally not used to high levels of training.

I'm not trying to argue that cycling isn't the best way of training for cycling, I'm just suggesting that there are benefits to cross training - especially for someone new to training regularly.

But hey, I'm biased, I enjoy swimming and running :wink:
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Re: training advice requested

Postby Jono L. » Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:20 pm

tripstobaltimore wrote:
But hey, I'm biased, I enjoy swimming and running :wink:

I hate running! :lol:

Swimming, yeh not bad 8)
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Re: training advice requested

Postby Wayfarer » Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:43 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
Wayfarer wrote:
Jono L. wrote:Running is great training for running. It won't build any magical building that will make your riding any better.

It will be great for bone density and just some variety so it's not to be discouraged..I just wouldn't go around thinking it'll improve your cycling performance :)

it'll help build a better, more rigid and dverse foundation for exercise.. I use running and swimming alot. Running builds lesser used (for cycling) muscles in your legs, which aid in power and cardio endurance.

perhaps some resistance training will help too.

The lesser used muscles in cycling are lesser used for a reason.*

Nothing wrong with running per se but please don't promote it as an effective way to improve power when riding a bike. The only way it will do that is if you are untrained to start with and when just about any exercise will help.


* This sounds like the "you need develop a strong core for endurance cycling performance" myth. You get all the core strength you need to ride a bike from riding a bike, provided you ride hard enough and long enough. Again this is not to say one shouldn't do such exercise, just don't go promoting the fallacy that it will make you more (aerobically) powerful on a bike.


So i guess all the resistance training and crosstraining we did on the state cross country team (which brought me to cycling) was for nothing, right? perhaps it wont make you more aerobically powerful, but swimming and running are definately key to improving performance on a bike. Thats why the professionals do it. Lances post race lactate measures wouldnt be as low as they are if he wasnt a triathlete earlier in his life.

muscle metabolism?
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Re: training advice requested

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:00 pm

Wayfarer wrote:So i guess all the resistance training and crosstraining we did on the state cross country team (which brought me to cycling) was for nothing, right? perhaps it wont make you more aerobically powerful, but swimming and running are definately key to improving performance on a bike. Thats why the professionals do it. Lances post race lactate measures wouldnt be as low as they are if he wasnt a triathlete earlier in his life.

muscle metabolism?

you really don't know what you're on about, do you?
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Re: training advice requested

Postby Jono L. » Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:56 pm

Physiological differences between cycling and running: lessons from triathletes.
Millet GP, Vleck VE, Bentley DJ.

ISSEP, University of Lausanne, Lausanne, Switzerland. [email protected]

The purpose of this review was to provide a synopsis of the literature concerning the physiological differences between cycling and running. By comparing physiological variables such as maximal oxygen consumption (V O(2max)), anaerobic threshold (AT), heart rate, economy or delta efficiency measured in cycling and running in triathletes, runners or cyclists, this review aims to identify the effects of exercise modality on the underlying mechanisms (ventilatory responses, blood flow, muscle oxidative capacity, peripheral innervation and neuromuscular fatigue) of adaptation. The majority of studies indicate that runners achieve a higher V O(2max) on treadmill whereas cyclists can achieve a V O(2max) value in cycle ergometry similar to that in treadmill running. Hence, V O(2max) is specific to the exercise modality. In addition, the muscles adapt specifically to a given exercise task over a period of time, resulting in an improvement in submaximal physiological variables such as the ventilatory threshold, in some cases without a change in V O(2max). However, this effect is probably larger in cycling than in running. At the same time, skill influencing motor unit recruitment patterns is an important influence on the anaerobic threshold in cycling.
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Re: training advice requested

Postby Jono L. » Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:00 pm

Leg muscle recruitment during cycling is less developed in triathletes than cyclists despite matched cycling training loads.
Chapman AR, Vicenzino B, Blanch P, Hodges PW.

Division of Physiotherapy, The University of Queensland, Brisbane, QLD, Australia. [email protected]

Studies of arm movements suggest that interference with motor learning occurs when multiple tasks are practiced in sequence or with short interim periods. However, interference with learning has only been studied during training periods of 1-7 days and it is not known if interference with learning continues during long-term multitask training. This study investigated muscle recruitment in highly trained triathletes, who swim, cycle and run sequentially during training and competition. Comparisons were made to highly trained and novice cyclists, i.e. between trained multidiscipline, trained single-discipline and novice single-discipline athletes, to investigate adaptations of muscle recruitment that occur in response to ongoing multitask, or multidiscipline, training. Electromyographic (EMG) activity of five leg muscles, tibialis anterior, tibialis posterior, peroneus longus, gastrocnemius lateralis and soleus muscles, was recorded during cycling using intramuscular fine-wire electrodes. Differences were found between trained triathletes and trained cyclists in recruitment of all muscles, and patterns of muscle recruitment in trained triathletes were similar to those recorded in novice cyclists. More specifically, triathletes and novice cyclists were characterised by greater sample variance (i.e. greater variation between athletes), greater variation in muscle recruitment patterns between pedal strokes for individual cyclists, more extensive and more variable muscle coactivation, and less modulation of muscle activity (i.e. greater EMG amplitude between primary EMG bursts). In addition, modulation of muscle activity decreased with increasing cadence (i.e. the amplitude and duration of muscle activity was greater at higher movement speeds) in both triathletes and novice cyclists but modulation of muscle activity was not influenced by cadence in trained cyclists. Our findings imply that control of muscle recruitment is less developed in triathletes than in cyclists matched for cycling training loads, which suggests that multidiscipline training may interfere with adaptation of the neuromuscular system to cycling training in triathletes.
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Re: training advice requested

Postby toolonglegs » Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:03 pm

:D
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Re: training advice requested

Postby Wayfarer » Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:46 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:you really don't know what you're on about, do you?

Image
Image

clearly, the physique of these two professional athletes was not formed by cycling alone.
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Re: training advice requested

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:53 pm

Specificity, specificity, specificity....

of the modes of triathlete training, swimming has little to no cross over to improving cycling performance.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11774068
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16306508
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7871294
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1943623
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7068297
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Re: training advice requested

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:54 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:you really don't know what you're on about, do you?

Image
Image

clearly, the physique of these two professional athletes was not formed by cycling alone.

And what exactly does a track sprinter's training have to do with endurance cycling performance?
Zippo.
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Re: training advice requested

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:59 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
Wayfarer wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:you really don't know what you're on about, do you?

clearly, the physique of these two professional athletes was not formed by cycling alone.

And what exactly does a track sprinter's training have to do with endurance cycling performance?
Zippo.

just to emphasise, there is a vast difference between the physiological demands (and training requirements of) such diverse activities as track sprinting and endurance cyclists.
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Re: training advice requested

Postby Jono L. » Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:08 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:just to emphasise, there is a vast difference between the physiological demands (and training requirements of) such diverse activities as track sprinting and endurance cyclists.

Furthermore, it could be argued just as easily that hoy performed brilliantly in spite of his obvious off the bike training.

Let's not forget that n=1 as well :)
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Re: training advice requested

Postby tripstobaltimore » Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:02 pm

Jono L. wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:just to emphasise, there is a vast difference between the physiological demands (and training requirements of) such diverse activities as track sprinting and endurance cyclists.

Furthermore, it could be argued just as easily that hoy performed brilliantly in spite of his obvious off the bike training.

Let's not forget that n=1 as well :)


haha, smart arse.

:D
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